Appeal Help

[cupboard]

I had just got onto a short one-way journey train, and was mid-buying a ticket on my phone when the train conductor sat across from me and decided to fine me. Now my £4.20 journey is going to cost £56.80.
I’m aware that you are meant to buy the ticket before getting on the train, which is my mistake as I was in a rush. I also know that isn’t a great excuse but I was fined within minutes of being on the train, I honestly think scraping money from people for such small things is inhuman. The conductor explained to me that I could appeal and show then my student ID and railcard and potentially get it reduced? But I am unsure how to do that. I was too in shock to ask questions, I am panicking because I have only just saved enough to pay my bills this month that were higher than usual. I don’t know what to do, I feel really ashamed for not getting the ticket on time and am very worried about the money so I’m wondering how likely an appeal is, and what I can say?

Thank you for any replies I appreciate your time!

 

[methecooldude]

It would help to upload any paperwork you were given, blanking out any sensitive information. £56.80 seems a bit... odd?

 

[AdamWW]

It would help to upload any paperwork you were given, blanking out any sensitive information. £56.80 seems a bit... odd?

Penalty fare (£50 for paying or appealing promptly) + Anytime single, which is conceivably £6.80 when an off-peak fare was £4.20?

 

[EZJ]

Unfortunately buying your ticket as the conductor approaches are classic signs of potentially trying to avoid paying your fare. Harsh as it may seem you committed an offence by boarding without first buying a ticket. Unless you've missed anything out in your account I don't see any ground for appeal and would pay the settlement to avoid a costly prosecution.

 

[methecooldude]

Penalty fare (£50 for paying or appealing promptly) + Anytime single, which is conceivably £6.80 when an off-peak fare was £4.20?

Potentially, but the paperwork, I assume would say £106.80

 

[cupboard]

Penalty fare (£50 for paying or appealing promptly) + Anytime single, which is conceivably £6.80 when an off-peak fare was £4.20?

sorry, I’m actually on the train right now (fully paid!) so can’t provide the documents at the moment, but yes it’s a £100 fine but £50 if paid within 3 weeks. The £4.20 is the price of the ticket including my rail card price but the fine includes the non-rail card price. The conductor, and the person at the barrier essentially recommended that I appeal in o ur conversation, which might mean I have some grounds?

 

[WesternLancer]

Might be helpful if you can post what Train Company was involved in issuing you the Penalty Fare

For example Northern Trains have this on their website as below - and I think an Appeal stops the clock on the penalty being £100 which is what it is increased to if payment not made promptly.

An Appeal also stops the Railway Company from prosecuting you for fare evasion, which is a useful factor to bear in mind.

However, from what you have said I can't see that there would be any basis on an Appeal being granted, and you even say you know you are supposed to buy before boarding the train, and you probably passed warning posters telling you this (these are the reason they will say when they respond to your Appeal). The problem is that the offence of traveling without a ticket is committed the moment you step on the train (unless you have permission from staff to get on and pay on board) - and this is actually a criminal offence which obv makes things worse and the potential fine even higher than what you are facing.

Northern Rail

northernrailway.force.com

Can I appeal my Penalty Fare?​

If you wish to appeal against a Penalty Fare you must do so in writing within 21 days of the Penalty Fare been issued and send it to the appeals address on the Penalty Fare Notice.

 

[EZJ]

sorry, I’m actually on the train right now (fully paid!) so can’t provide the documents at the moment, but yes it’s a £100 fine but £50 if paid within 3 weeks. The £4.20 is the price of the ticket including my rail card price but the fine includes the non-rail card price. The conductor, and the person at the barrier essentially recommended that I appeal in o ur conversation, which might mean I have some grounds?

Rail staff will always tell you to appeal it generally negates any conflict. I honestly can't see any ground for appeal from what you've said so far.

 

[WesternLancer]

The conductor, and the person at the barrier essentially recommended that I appeal in o ur conversation, which might mean I have some grounds?

By all means make the appeal (I can't see that you would have anything to lose by Appealing) but I can't really see much on the grounds on which you can Appeal (unless it is say a station without ticketing facilities / you had no method to buy a ticket eg only had cash on you) - you could request the sum is reduced by virtue of your Railcard but I doubt even that will be granted....

I fear they may have encouraged you to Appeal in the hope you 'move on' and it's no longer their problem when you are complaining to them. Probably serves to give you a sense of false hope sadly. But like I say if easy to appeal I can't see you have anything more to lose.

 

[cupboard]

By all means make the appeal (I can't see that you would have anything to lose by Appealing) but I can't really see much on the grounds on which you can Appeal (unless it is say a station without ticketing facilities and you had no method to buy a ticket eg only had cash on you) - you could request the sum is reduced by virtue of your Railcard but I doubt even that will be granted....

I fear they may have encouraged you to Appeal in the hope you 'move on' and it's no longer their problem when you are complaining to them. Probably serves to give you a sense of false hope sadly. But like I say if easy to appeal I can't see you have anything more to lose.

It is West Midlands Railway.

I was very cooperative with what he was saying and stayed calm (trying to hold back tears if anything).

After he left and I had calmed myself, I walked across the train to see if I could find him to ask if the report would know what time I got on the train, but he had gone into the staff area and didn’t leave for the entire journey. It’d be impossible to not pay for a journey as I leave at Birmingham New Street, which always has barriers down.

thank you all for replying so promptly, if anyone has any advice for the appeal let me know

 

[Darandio]

It’d be impossible to not pay for a journey as I leave at Birmingham New Street, which always has barriers down.

Most likely. But trying to buy a ticket on your phone after departure exhibits 'pay when challenged' behaviour especially if it's done when a member of staff is seen approaching. If a member of staff hadn't approach there's nothing stopping someone buying a cheaper ticket from somewhere off the top of my head like Five Ways to circumvent the barrier issue.

There's a reason they are taking an increasingly zero tolerance approach.

 

[WesternLancer]

After he left and I had calmed myself, I walked across the train to see if I could find him to ask if the report would know what time I got on the train, but he had gone into the staff area and didn’t leave for the entire journey. It’d be impossible to not pay for a journey as I leave at Birmingham New Street, which always has barriers down.

thank you all for replying so promptly, if anyone has any advice for the appeal let me know

The prob is the online ticket you bought will have time of purchase and the railway will know the time of where the train was (so they would know you were on it when the ticket was bought - which is itself the offence).

The issue is (not saying you were doing this) is that people will either not buy a ticket until they see a ticket check person (buy when challenged) or only buy a ticket from the last stop before New Street to get through the barriers (eg a Five Ways to New Street single for example) which they buy on the train en route.

It's really bad luck when money is tight but I think you just have to put this one down to experience. Obv keep an eye out here for a few days in case other people have any good ideas - but don't risk letting the Penalty go up to £100.

The only other basis for an Appeal is to study the 'buy your ticket warning posters' at the station you got on at to check that they properly comply with the regulations about Penalty Fare warnings. If you want to check that you will need to go back to that station, look for any posters and note their locations and post pics up here to ask people if they think the posters are correct or if there is any loophole you could use in the Appeal (there will be people on here with suitable expertise to offer a view on that!). I fear that is very much along shot though.

Only other tangential advice would be to make sure that when you are on a delayed / late train you claim any money you are entitled to under the Delay Repay scheme - usually after a 15 minute or more delay.

 

[cupboard]

The prob is the online ticket you bought will have time of purchase and the railway will know the time of where the train was (so they would know you were on it when the ticket was bought - which is itself the offence).

The issue is (not saying you were doing this) is that people will either not buy a ticket until they see a ticket check person (buy when challenged) or only buy a ticket from the last stop before New Street to get through the barriers (eg a Five Ways to New Street single for example) which they buy on the train en route.

It's really bad luck when money is tight but I think you just have to put this one down to experience. Obv keep an eye out here for a few days in case other people have any good ideas - but don't risk letting the Penalty go up to £100.

The only other basis for an Appeal is to study the 'buy your ticket warning posters' at the station you got on at to check that they properly comply with the regulations about Penalty Fare warnings. If you want to check that you will need to go back to that station, look for any posters and note their locations and post pics up here to ask people if they think the posters are correct or if there is any loophole you could use in the Appeal (there will be people on here with suitable expertise to offer a view on that!). I fear that is very much along shot though.

Only other tangential advice would be to make sure that when you are on a delayed / late train you claim any money you are entitled to under the Delay Repay scheme - usually after a 15 minute or more delay.

Thank you for your advice. I know it is a really long shot, but I just looked around the station I had originally got on at and usually I have never noticed any signs but I did see these displayed near ish the platform.

The one doesnt mention anything about a fine, the other one doesn’t explicitly state anything about how you need the ticket BEFORE getting on the train, it just implies that not paying for your whole journey is bad.

 

[Darandio]

Yes, quite the long shot. It also appears to me that you are misunderstanding what the signs are saying.

 

[JBuchananGB]

“Get it before you go” seems fairly clear.

 

[fandroid]

Only one of those is the Penalty Fare Notice, and they have to be according to the Regulations and posted everywhere on the station so that an incoming passenger couldn't fail to pass one.

 

[spag23]

“Get it before you go” seems fairly clear.

But that jauntilly presented insert may come across as a mere marketing motto, rather than a legal notice. And the main text extolls the convenience of the App for "easy access, anywhere". It's here that it needs a warning that this "anywhere" flexibility does not extend buying it on the train (as many passengers seem to think). Similarly the "Travelling without a ticket could result in a PF" notice might be better expressed as "Even just boarding a train without a ticket...."
I hope this doesn't come across as pedantic molly-coddling. But I feel the existing posters could be a little more explicit, and leave less room for doubt.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you for your advice. I know it is a really long shot, but I just looked around the station I had originally got on at and usually I have never noticed any signs but I did see these displayed near ish the platform.

The one doesnt mention anything about a fine, the other one doesn’t explicitly state anything about how you need the ticket BEFORE getting on the train, it just implies that not paying for your whole journey is bad.

But there are posters there - so you can't really dispute that

Possibly also things that look like the ones displayed on this official web page? Like this blue an yellow example

Penalty Fares | National Rail

A penalty fare is an exceptional fare of £100 charged if you do not comply with the normal train ticket purchasing rules without good reason. It is not a fine.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[furlong]

Those two posters are irrelevant in terms of the legislation.

It sounds like you should appeal then on the grounds that the standard notices were not displayed in the places required. You don't need to provide any evidence of this - that's their job - but you should take your own photos and keep them just in case they claim otherwise and put up new notices.

It is not a long shot at all - a ridiculous number of stations are not compliant. There is no excuse for them not to make their stations compliant if they want to be able to issue Penalty Fares.

As a reminder:

8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.
...
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.
...
1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—
(a) the penalty fares logo as shown in Part 3;
(b) the word “WARNING” in large, prominent text at the top of the notice;
(c) the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;
(d) subject to paragraph (da), the wording “A Penalty Fare is £20 or twice the full single fare applicable to your journey (whichever is greater)";
(da) in stations in England, the wording “A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the full single fare applicable for your intended journey. However, if it is paid within 21 days, the Penalty Fare is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare applicable";
(e) wording which indicates where information about the circumstances in which a person may be charged a penalty fare in relation to travel by, presence on or leaving a train is published or may be obtained; and
(f) the logo, and name if the logo does not contain the name, of each operator that charges penalty fares in relation to trains arriving at or departing from the area of the station to which the notice applies.

 

[MrJeeves]

Only one of those is the Penalty Fare Notice, and they have to be according to the Regulations and posted everywhere on the station so that an incoming passenger couldn't fail to pass one.

Technically, neither are. One of the most basic requirements is that the notice has to state "WARNING" at the top in large text, followed by a longer list of more detailed requirements.

Ah @furlong beat me, and with far more detail too!

 

[gray1404]

What station did you commence your journey from? Was there a ticket office open? Was there a ticket machine available? If there was a ticket machine digit exceptional chosen method of payment, such as card or cash?

I am trying to establish if you had an opportunity to purchase before boarding the train.

 

[furlong]

Yes, unfortunately this thread has been done backwards, with answers suggested before the essential information was requested and supplied.

There's a set of tick boxes to work through with a penalty fare - if any were missed, you should win on appeal. It's rudimentary stuff and normally each thing is either right or its wrong. Amount of the notice, exact wording of the notice are others (but the OP so far chose not to provide pictures of it). We've seen shortcomings with this train company before so it's worth checking these things to make sure they are adhering to the legislation before labelling someone a fare evader by imposing a penalty on them by law.

 

[WesternLancer]

Those two posters are irrelevant in terms of the legislation.

It sounds like you should appeal then on the grounds that the standard notices were not displayed in the places required. You don't need to provide any evidence of this - that's their job - but you should take your own photos and keep them just in case they claim otherwise and put up new notices.

It is not a long shot at all - a ridiculous number of stations are not compliant. There is no excuse for them not to make their stations compliant if they want to be able to issue Penalty Fares.

As a reminder:

So the grounds for the Appeal for @cupboard are best based on the absence of the correct posters at the station where boarded (the OP can say the station name in case anyone here knows the location themselves) - this would have the benefit of preventing prosecution.

I expect this will be disputed by the train company so the OP will need to go through stage 2 and 3 appeals maybe, but no doubt people can help with those stages. I still think think it's a long shot that such an Appeal will be successful, but there is no harm in making one.

 

[AdamWW]

I expect this will be disputed by the train company so the OP will need to go through stage 2 and 3 appeals maybe, but no doubt people can help with those stages. I still think think it's a long shot that such an Appeal will be successful, but there is no harm in making one.

So even if the appropriate signage is missing, it's unlikely that an appeal would succeed? That doesn't seem very reasonable.

 

[DaleCooper]

But there are posters there - so you can't really dispute that

Possibly also things that look like the ones displayed on this official web page? Like this blue an yellow example

Penalty Fares | National Rail

A penalty fare is an exceptional fare of £100 charged if you do not comply with the normal train ticket purchasing rules without good reason. It is not a fine.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

The standard of English on that NRE page is appalling with missing words and commas thrown in at random.

Tickets do get at gatelines but it is not feasible to ensure that every ticket is checked this way. Therefore, to help ensure that passengers pay the correct fare a number of train companies operate a 'Penalty Fares' scheme.

Where Penalty Fares apply, rail passengers must buy their tickets before they start their journey wherever there are facilities such as an open ticket office or working self-service ticket machines, that enables them to do so. If you board a train without a ticket at a station where ticket facilities were available, you may be given a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) and have to pay a Penalty Fare by a ticket inspector who has been appointed as a 'Penalty Fares Collector'.

 

[WesternLancer]

So even if the appropriate signage is missing, it's unlikely that an appeal would succeed? That doesn't seem very reasonable.

No, I didn't really mean that (but thanks for picking me up on it) I think the Train company will simply argue that their signage is 'appropriate' (or maybe there is other signage too that the OP did not spot when checking) and it will be an uphill struggle to get the Appeals body to accept that it isn't, I fear. But worth a try.

 

[AdamWW]

No, I didn't really mean that (but thanks for picking me up on it) I think the Train company will simply argue that their signage is 'appropriate' (or maybe there is other signage too that the OP did not spot when checking) and it will be an uphill struggle to get the Appeals body to accept that it isn't, I fear. But worth a try.

Fair enough.

I would have thought that the onus should be on the TOC to demonstrate that - at the time - they had the appropriate signage in place.

But I can quite imagine that this is considered somehow impractical and the person appealing has to show the lack of signage.

 

[MrJeeves]

Fair enough.

I would have thought that the onus should be on the TOC to demonstrate that - at the time - they had the appropriate signage in place.

But I can quite imagine that this is considered somehow impractical and the person appealing has to show the lack of signage.

It is a tricky subject. The onus is on the TOC, but it's a case of the independent appeals organisation to realise this, and find in your favour if the TOC does no more than say "yes it's compliant".

If it was me, I would travel back to the station to take pictures of the signage in its current state before making an appeal. Removes any chance (even if it's small) of the TOC going back, updating the signage, then saying it's compliant.

 

[30907]

If it was me, I would travel back to the station to take pictures of the signage in its current state before making an appeal. Removes any chance (even if it's small) of the TOC going back, updating the signage, then saying it's compliant.

In doing so, please make sure you note any smaller and more detailed signs which are likely to be(and are required to be) at each entrance to the platform/s.