Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

[JamesT]

Time to wheel out the George Orwell quote?

In intention, at any rate, the English intelligentsia are Europeanized. 
They take their cookery from Paris and their opinions from Moscow. In the 
general patriotism of the country they form a sort of island of dissident 
thought. England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals 
are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always 
felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman 
and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse 
racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably 
true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of 
standing to attention during ‘God save the King’ than of stealing from a 
poor box. All through the critical years many left-wingers were chipping 
away at English morale, trying to spread an outlook that was sometimes 
squashily pacifist, sometimes violently pro-Russian, but always 
anti-British.

 

[nw1]

Is it your opinion that there's something wrong with being proud to be English?

A little because it's implying that by being English you're better than any other nationalities.

If you're "proud to be English" the implication is that Englishness is a virtue in itself. It clearly isn't as you are essentially putting down all the other countries in the world.

I am proud to have liberal democratic values. But plenty of nations share that.

 

[jfollows]

I believe that the majority of owner occupiers will be on a mortgage.

From https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...gstockbytenureestimatesengland2012to2015/2021:

This model estimates that there were 23.3 million households living in 24.9 million dwellings in 2021 across all LAs in England.

Just under two-thirds (64%) of those 24.9 million dwellings were estimated to be owner-occupied in 2021. The analysis breaks this down further, giving the following four tenures:

• 9.3 million (37%) were owned outright
• 6.5 million (26%) were owned with a mortgage or a loan
• 4.9 million (20%) were private-rented
• 4.2 million (17%) were in social rent, mainly rented from housing associations and LAs

59% of the 15.8m owner-occupiers (first two categories above) own their properties outright, 41% own with a mortgage or loan.
In the past (20 years ago, say) I suspect the number of private-rented households would have been a lot lower and, correspondingly, the number owned with a mortgage or loan would be higher, so the latter would probably have exceeded the number owned outright.

 

[edwin_m]

A couple of quick examples that spring to mind are comments made by Dianne Abbott about white people, at least one of which she apologised for (which is admirable but also an admission of guilt). Completely divisive and rather ironic when accusing white people of playing divide and conquer! We had Emily Thornberry resign from the Shadow Cabinet after implying people who display St George's cross flags were racist knuckle draggers. We had New Labour wanting to "rub the right's nose in diversity" according to Andrew Neather (an old but textbook example of baiting!). One could argue that the actions of the Scottish Government in regard to transgender rights have stoked the culture war; I'm sure they were fully aware of how divisive it would be.

I should add that personally I don't lose any sleep over the majority of these things but others clearly do. Having taken the bait they're then branded "frothers" etc. by the left.... Job done!

Sorry I don't recall the Diane Abbott comments. Emily Thornberry in 2014 was insensitive and unwise (according to Wikipedia it was just captioned "image from Rochester" so is the rest just interpretation?). But I don't think it was intended to rile the other side and it certainly did more damage than credit to her side.

In contrast I'd cite Suella Braverman's dream of sending asylum seekers to Rwanda and promotion of the Illegal Immigration Bill, and Boris Johnson's comment of women in burkas looking like letterboxes, as gratuitously offensive.

 

[duncanp]

True, flying such flags may have such a motivation, but IMO there are good reasons to fly those flags and promote nationalism for those three named countries, and many others. For England and other dominant countries there are not.


It just seems to me to be pointless, and worshipping the flag "for the sake of it". England is in no way a country which is oppressed or dominated by another or a country seeking to obtain more autonomy from some other country.

You have no right decide the motivation of people who fly the English flag.

Just because it seems "pointless nationalism" to you doesn't mean that this is what motivates people to fly the flag, any more that you can assume that flying the Welsh or Scottish flag is motivated by a desire to seek more autonomy from England.

 

[najaB]

A little because it's implying that by being English you're better than any other nationalities.

Don't know that I can agree with that. I am a dual citizen. I am both proud of both nationalities, but I accept that neither one is perfect.

If you're "proud to be English" the implication is that Englishness is a virtue in itself. It clearly isn't as you are essentially putting down all the other countries in the world.

It's not a virtue, it's an attribute. And one that it is okay to have pride about - the same as someone might have pride in the school they attended. Perhaps your understanding of 'pride' is different to mine, but I don't think that having pride in an attribute automatically means that you believe that attribute is superior to all others.

 

[DustyBin]

Well, perhaps, but education is only a part of the story in a system where so much opportunity is tied to taking risk.

It is only part of the story I agree, but I don't view the path through higher education and into a well paid role as fraught with risk to be honest. In fact, if done right it's a fairly low risk route to making a decent living.

Disagree. Flying the England flag is patriotism, and there's nothing wrong with having pride in your nation of birth/association.

However, a lot of people cross the line from patriotism (which is a justifiable pride in your country, accepting that it has warts) into nationalism - which refuses to acknowledge any flaws or imperfections and sees legitimate criticism as an attack.

I agree with both points.

100% agree. In my opinion we were *finally* making rather good progress towards the 'MLK society', but now we appear to be going significantly backwards again.

Yes, this is the tragedy of it all. BOTH sides of the political divide need to acknowledge their faults if we're going to halt the regression.

Which is itself something fraught with risk, and not an ideal move if you want a secure and guaranteed income, unless you know your idea is a dead-cert success story which will make lots of money. Not many of us have the talent to have that assurance!

Of course. However, in my experience people choose to take the risk as they feel that they can better themselves this way. Not many do it simply to survive.

 

[birchesgreen]

I don't have a problem with people being proud of where they were born though its not like they had anything to do with it!

 

[Cross City]

Plenty of outward patriotism and nationalism is entirely cringeworthy.

Nothing wrong with being proud of where you come from of course, I love this country, but having "English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish/American" as a personality trait is just plain weird.

There is also no getting away from the fact that the England flag has been co-opted by some less than desirable types and that displaying one outside of say a World Cup or other such tournament is leaving you open to being judged (rightly or wrongly) by probably a majority of the population.

I'm a proud Englishman (though I'd more likely say that I'm British than English) but there's no chance I'm flying a flag, celebrating St George's Day or revering royalty.

Something about overt patriotism doesn't seem English/British in the slightest.

 

[najaB]

I don't have a problem with people being proud of where they were born though its not like they had anything to do with it!

It's not just about where one was born though - there are a lot of people who are proud of an adopted country as well.

There is also no getting away from the fact that the England flag has been co-opted by some less than desirable types and that displaying one outside of say a World Cup or other such tournament is leaving you open to being judged (rightly or wrongly) by probably a majority of the population.

That is true. And unfortunate.

 

[MikeWM]

I would definitely agree we're going backwards, speaking from a liberal-left point of view. I would say the peak period for liberal values was approximately 1995 to 2007, before the credit crunch triggered the current move towards right-wing authoritarianism (and it's this, rather than "wokery", that is the big problem IMO).

I'm not at all sure the authoritarianism is specifically right-wing. For example, during Covid it was often the 'kind, liberal' societies like Canada and New Zealand that were the worst for authoritarianism. And 'New Labour' *pre-credit crunch* was highly authoritarian too, which was a large part of the reason I resigned from the party around that time.

Authoritarianism currently seems worst in the middle to me - as I've mentioned before, it was notable back when opposing ID cards that the people who were against them were mostly the hard left and the hard right (and the Liberal Democrats, to be fair!). Equally look at the December 2021 votes over vaccine passports and mandatory vaccinations for healthcare workers - again, it was the hard left and the hard right who voted against, while everyone 'in the middle' (again, to be fair, with the exception of the Liberal Democrats) were enthusiastic supporters of such things.

I think there is a lot of truth to the idea that the current political battle is between authoritarianism and libertarianism, not left and right. There are still some differences between left and right on economic grounds of course, but they're often rather slight and in my opinion rather less important right now. If you look at a speech of Sunak's or Starmer's without knowing which was which, they're not exactly easy to tell apart. (Something you couldn't say about Johnson vs Corbyn, for example!)

 

[birchesgreen]

It's not just about where one was born though - there are a lot of people who are proud of an adopted country as well.

Thats not the same thing though, thats a choice.

 

[nw1]

I'm not at all sure the authoritarianism is specifically right-wing.

I agree there, obviously there are plenty of examples of left-wing authoritarianism. However I was specifically talking about the political trends of the past 10 to 15 years compared to what I considered the "height" of liberal values in the 90s and 00s.

I think there is a lot of truth to the idea that the current political battle is between authoritarianism and libertarianism, not left and right. There are still some differences between left and right on economic grounds of course, but they're often rather slight and in my opinion rather less important right now. If you look at a speech of Sunak's or Starmer's without knowing which was which, they're not exactly easy to tell apart. (Something you couldn't say about Johnson vs Corbyn, for example!)

I think there is a bit of both a left/right battle and an authoritarian/libertarian battle, two axes of the same graph. I would place myself in the left/libertarian quarter: while it's normally the right that annoy me there are some examples of left-wing authoritarianism that do also.

That said, the attitudes of the authoritarian left are scarcely the biggest problem in the UK and across the western world right now.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2023 ==

Don't know that I can agree with that. I am a dual citizen. I am both proud of both nationalities, but I accept that neither one is perfect.

It's not a virtue, it's an attribute. And one that it is okay to have pride about - the same as someone might have pride in the school they attended. Perhaps your understanding of 'pride' is different to mine, but I don't think that having pride in an attribute automatically means that you believe that attribute is superior to all others.

But is it though? Heterosexuality is another attribute, just like Englishness: would anyone in the mainstream consider it acceptable to say that they are proud of being heterosexual?

 

[dosxuk]

Patriotism and being proud of things you're part of is something that has always interested me, mainly because different people take it to different levels, but also that many see the acceptability of others being proud of those things as something that needs challenging.

Many people are proud of their home, but few people have issues with that. Lots are proud of their home town, with a knowing laugh that it has it's bad sides, but they still don't mind it - again, few people have issues with that. Even at the county level, some people are very proud of which county they were born in, but others just laugh at the idea - nobody seems to find it offensive though.

Then we get to country - and it's probably the point that the ugly sides of nationalism start to appear. There are a very good number of people proud of their country, but there's a good proportion of those who don't take steps to make that apparent, because there's also a good number of people who think it's stupid or that it means you support nationalistic views.

But if we carry on, for some reason very few people seem to be proud of being from the UK - there's a bit of it around royalty, but that seems to be almost a separate thing. Even the attempts to build something when the countries play together as Team GB seems to be little appreciated. Finally, we get to Europe, and it seems there is a strong divide between those who think that being proud of your country means it's not permitted to be proud of your continent and vice-versa.

I don't understand the mindset that you can be a proud European citizen and a proud Mancunian, but it's offensive to be a proud Englishman. Likewise, I don't understand the opposite - that you can be a proud Englishman, but not a proud European. Either you're proud of where you come from or you're not, but that shouldn't affect whether other people can be proud of those places.

would anyone in the mainstream consider it acceptable to say that they are proud of being heterosexual?

Why wouldn't they? It's only an issue if it means that alternatives are not acceptable.

 

[nw1]

From https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...gstockbytenureestimatesengland2012to2015/2021:

59% of the 15.8m owner-occupiers (first two categories above) own their properties outright, 41% own with a mortgage or loan.

I am staggered by that, given it takes 25-30 years to pay off a mortgage. These days people typically can't afford to buy a property until their 30s or even later: I am Gen X rather than millennial but even I could not afford to do so until my late 30s, and even that was a pretty small flat.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Apr 2023 ==

Why wouldn't they? It's only an issue if it means that alternatives are not acceptable.

To me it implicitly does. "Proud of being heterosexual" implies "proud not to be homosexual or bisexual".

 

[duncanp]

Patriotism and being proud of things you're part of is something that has always interested me, mainly because different people take it to different levels, but also that many see the acceptability of others being proud of those things as something that needs challenging.

Many people are proud of their home, but few people have issues with that. Lots are proud of their home town, with a knowing laugh that it has it's bad sides, but they still don't mind it - again, few people have issues with that. Even at the county level, some people are very proud of which county they were born in, but others just laugh at the idea - nobody seems to find it offensive though.

Then we get to country - and it's probably the point that the ugly sides of nationalism start to appear. There are a very good number of people proud of their country, but there's a good proportion of those who don't take steps to make that apparent, because there's also a good number of people who think it's stupid or that it means you support nationalistic views.

But if we carry on, for some reason very few people seem to be proud of being from the UK - there's a bit of it around royalty, but that seems to be almost a separate thing. Even the attempts to build something when the countries play together as Team GB seems to be little appreciated. Finally, we get to Europe, and it seems there is a strong divide between those who think that being proud of your country means it's not permitted to be proud of your continent and vice-versa.

I don't understand the mindset that you can be a proud European citizen and a proud Mancunian, but it's offensive to be a proud Englishman. Likewise, I don't understand the opposite - that you can be a proud Englishman, but not a proud European. Either you're proud of where you come from or you're not, but that shouldn't affect whether other people can be proud of those places.



Why wouldn't they? It's only an issue if it means that alternatives are not acceptable.

General De Gaulle once said that "..Patriotism is when love of your own country comes first. Nationalism is when hatred of other countries comes first.."

So to be patriotic doesn't mean that you hate other countries, any more than supporting a particular football team implies that you hate those who support a different football team.

 

[jfollows]

I am staggered by that, given it takes 25-30 years to pay off a mortgage. These days people typically can't afford to buy a property until their 30s or even later: I am Gen X rather than millennial but even I could not afford to do so until my late 30s, and even that was a pretty small flat.

https://www.uswitch.com/mortgages/mortgage-statistics/ quotes the government as the source for this breakdown (which shows that whereas >61% of those aged 65 or over own outright, only 3.3% of those aged 35-44 do).
[EDIT This chart may be misleading but the general trend is clear; it's referring to the way people bought their properties which is not the same as their status when living in the same properties.]
I bought my first house for £24,000 aged something like 25. So people who bought for the first time, like me, in the mid-1980s are feeding through to the older end now. I became mortgage-free because of an inheritance aged <50 but if this hadn't been the case I'd probably be living somewhere smaller than my current house but mortgage free as well. So I think people around 60 (I'm now 61) and older will account for 75% of the total.

I remember at the time of my first house purchase thinking how badly off I was in comparison to those a few years older; those who bought in the 1970s had their mortgages wiped away by inflation essentially I think.

 

[Falcon1200]

I'm happy enough to see the Welsh or Scottish flags, but seeing the England flag - or those of other similar "dominant" countries - outside houses just irritates me unless the World Cup or some other comparable sporting tournament is on).

If the Scots and the Welsh can fly their own flags, so can the English - There is no difference, whatsoever.

A little because it's implying that by being English you're better than any other nationalities.

Which is exactly what the Nationalists in Scotland have done, in their conduct, blaming Westminster for all Scotland's ills, and having appropriated the Saltire for their own divisive ends.

 

[najaB]

But is it though? Heterosexuality is another attribute, just like Englishness: would anyone in the mainstream consider it acceptable to say that they are proud of being heterosexual?

I can't see any problem with someone saying that they are proud to be of any sexual orientation. The problem only comes about if they try to claim that their orientation is "right" and others are "wrong".

To me it implicitly does. "Proud of being heterosexual" implies "proud not to be homosexual or bisexual".

And I can't see a problem with that.

"I am proud not to be X" isn't a problem. "You should be ashamed to be X" is.

 

[birchesgreen]

Again its something you are born into so a strange thing to be proud of, but if you want to thats cool.

 

[MikeWM]

I agree there, obviously there are plenty of examples of left-wing authoritarianism. However I was specifically talking about the political trends of the past 10 to 15 years compared to what I considered the "height" of liberal values in the 90s and 00s.

I think the targets move around somewhat, which makes it difficult to make direct comparisons. I don't think pre-2007 was all that great - look at Labour last time they were in power, with illegal invasions of other countries, ID cards, 90 days detention without trial, and very cruel attitudes to those relying on the welfare state.

The targets of the authoritarianism move around, of course - we all found ourselves victim of authoritarianism over the last few years, and those of us who strongly believed in bodily autonomy and informed medical choices rather more than others.

I think there is a bit of both a left/right battle and an authoritarian/libertarian battle, two axes of the same graph. I would place myself in the left/libertarian quarter:

This seemed a good time for me to try the political compass again, to which I've just got (-5.88, -6.56), quite firmly in the left/libertarian quarter.

I was (-8.88, -7.90) in 2012, and (-8.63, -6.56) in 2006. So I don't appear to have moved much - very slightly economically right perhaps, though from a far-left start! The world has moved around me.

(The political compass of course has serious limitations itself, and seems to give results more skewed left/libertarian than people acutally are, but at least it does recognise the authoritarian/libertarian thing as equally important to the life/right thing).

 

[birchesgreen]

I can't remember what i was the last time i did that test (many years ago), i'm also in the green though more central.

Economic Left/Right: -3.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.67

 

[Typhoon]

Sorry I don't recall the Diane Abbott comments. Emily Thornberry in 2014 was insensitive and unwise (according to Wikipedia it was just captioned "image from Rochester" so is the rest just interpretation?). But I don't think it was intended to rile the other side and it certainly did more damage than credit to her side.

In contrast I'd cite Suella Braverman's dream of sending asylum seekers to Rwanda and promotion of the Illegal Immigration Bill, and Boris Johnson's comment of women in burkas looking like letterboxes, as gratuitously offensive.

The story, as reported by The Independent, shows the tweet. The only text is as you quoted https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...nsit-van-and-england-flags-tweet-9874088.html. I would say that it was a case of 'Failure to engage brain before clicking send'. There is an example of the (in my opinion) overreaction in the reply, talk about adding 2 and 2 together and making 22. I thought the picture was taken in Strood, actually but people in houses with brick walls and a roof over their head are fine by me, if it is bought, that may be an achievement. I would represent the place I was born and brought up it would be a picture of three terraced houses (over 120 years old), the middle one showing some of the work my father did to change its appearance. I am proud of where I come from and feel that some of the comments about Thornberry's tweet says as much about them as it does about Thornberry.
I think that the media and certain politicians target Thornberry, partly because she is gaffe prone, partly because she talks 'posh', partly because she represents a (fairly affluent) North London constituency> Mention may be made that her father was a diplomat and her husband a High Court judge (but not that after her parents were divorced they depended on free school meals, that she worked while sitting and resitting exams).
I personally would not put a flag out, be it the flag of St George (association with England - nil) or any other. mainly because, like many English, particularly of an older generation I am reserved, not showing emotions. Some in the road do, fine. Just don't force it on the rest of us. It would worry me more if they went over the top at Christmas, I would want to get some sleep.

 

[MikeWM]

I can't remember what i was the last time i did that test (many years ago), i'm also in the green though more central.

Economic Left/Right: -3.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.67

A common criticism I've seen is that 'everyone' ends up in the bottom-left quadrant, even people who really don't believe they are.

So out of interest I just tried it again and answered pretty much the opposite of what I actually believe - and got (7.13, 6.1), firmly in the top-right. So it is possible.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A common criticism I've seen is that 'everyone' ends up in the bottom-left quadrant, even people who really don't believe they are.

Ummm.. I just tried it. I ended up with a score of something like -2.5 (strongly left wing economically) and -1 (moderately libertarian).

Does anyone here believe I'm strongly left wing?

 

[birchesgreen]

Ummm.. I just tried it. I ended up with a score of something like -2.5 (strongly left wing economically) and -1 (moderately libertarian).

Does anyone here believe I'm strongly left wing?

Welcome comrade, i knew you would come over to our side in the end

 

[Mag_seven]

This thread is supposed to be about Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party. Can we get back to talking about that please.

 

[najaB]

This seemed a good time for me to try the political compass again, to which I've just got (-5.88, -6.56), quite firmly in the left/libertarian quarter.

Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.44

It would be interesting to know where the main players in the Conservative party lie*.

*As a preposition. As a verb the answer would be "Everywhere, all the time!"

 

[nw1]

I can't remember what i was the last time i did that test (many years ago), i'm also in the green though more central.

Economic Left/Right: -3.0
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.67

FWIW: Economic Left/right -6.5, social libertarian/authoritarian -7.28. And I thought I put some fairly MOR answers, particularly on the economic questions (page 2)!

Linking it to the subject at hand, though - I think the current government is strongly within the authoritarian/right quarter, and the likes of Braverman and Anderson are clearly comfortably within that space on the chart. This contrasts to some previous Tory governments (such as those of Cameron) which while firmly on the right, were significantly less authoritarian.

With such things as the Policing Bill and the focus on migration, it seems that they are still wishing to court the votes of that section of the population, rather than the wider right-of-centre, including the libertarian right and those closer to the centre on economic matters.

Would be interesting to see what quarter many of the self-proclaimed libertarians within the Tory Party come out as.

​

 

[MikeWM]

FWIW: Economic Left/right -6.5, social libertarian/authoritarian -7.28. And I thought I put some fairly MOR answers, particularly on the economic questions (page 2)!

The fact that a number of us have a similar result, even though we have considerably different opinions on current political issues, tells us something - most probably that the political compass isn't especially a useful guide or at least isn't anymore, even if it was in the past.

Linking it to the subject at hand, though - I think the current government is strongly within the authoritarian/right quarter

On that, they agree with you - they have their 2019 election guide showing the Tories at about (+9, +7).

With such things as the Policing Bill and the focus on migration, it seems that they are still wishing to court the votes of that section of the population, rather than the wider right-of-centre, including the libertarian right and those closer to the centre on economic matters.

The libertarian right tend to be more concerned with libertarianism for businesses rather than individuals - certainly that seems to be the case with the Libertarian Party in the US. That's the main reason I'm slightly wary of calling myself a libertarian, though I tend to do so anyway.

I'd say the current Tories are pretty high-tax, high-spend though. It is slightly disguised because income tax isn't especially high, but they make up for that with all the other taxes. One may disagree with how they raise money and how they spend the money - I do! - but government keeps getting bigger and bigger (and more and more intrusive) whoever is in power.