Tfl Investigation letter for Smoking

[Darandio]

I'm not convinced you've committed an offence as you were on a public pavement and for an offence to have been committed there needed to be sufficient signage.

You did mention that after the first image was posted which was incorrect. Did you see the latest image?

 

[gray1404]

You did mention that after the first image was posted which was incorrect. Did you see the latest image?

Just seen the second image now. Thank you. In that case we need to assess if the signage is sufficient.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not convinced you've committed an offence as you were on a public pavement and for an offence to have been committed there needed to be sufficient signage.

I don't think it is a given that the OP was on a public pavement. It is very common in London for ownership of the land to extend out a bit, often marked with studs in the pavement. Plus if it's a TfL road they own it all anyway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

Just seen the second image now. Thank you. In that case we need to assess if the signage is sufficient.

It looks clear enough to me, looking using Google Maps it can be seen very clearly. The only possible ambiguity is that two of the three signs say "beyond this point" without making what point clear, but there is a third just saying no smoking.

If looking on Google Maps you could possibly argue that smoking arguably would be permitted where the bloke in the brown coat is standing, but only precisely there, and it's tenuous.

 

[Darandio]

Just seen the second image now. Thank you. In that case we need to assess if the signage is sufficient.

One thing that isn't lacking is sufficient 'No Smoking' signage. That's assuming the signage is still there and given this capture is only 6 months old i'd wager it is.

 

[danielcanning]

I don't think it is a given that the OP was on a public pavement. It is very common in London for ownership of the land to extend out a bit, often marked with studs in the pavement. Plus if it's a TfL road they own it all anyway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==



It looks clear enough to me, looking using Google Maps it can be seen very clearly. The only possible ambiguity is that two of the three signs say "beyond this point" without making what point clear, but there is a third just saying no smoking.

If looking on Google Maps you could possibly argue that smoking arguably would be permitted where the bloke in the brown coat is standing, but only precisely there.

So you're saying that smoking on any road managed by TfL is against the law? That's madness....

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you're saying that smoking on any road managed by TfL is against the law? That's madness....

No. I'm saying that if TfL has put up signage banning smoking on their property, and part of that area is on one of their roads, then they could enforce it in the full area, not just up to the coach station boundary.

 

[AndyPJG]

It is quite possible (and probable) that the quarter circle of footway in front of the entrance (surfaced in mastic asphalt) is not public highway, but the areas paved with slabs is the only public area; ie the area behind the building frontage line is not public highway. (for the purposes of the tape, all depends on which areas are "maintained at the public expense", and those that aren't.

 

[WesternLancer]

All find my intended reply below, kindly help review. Thanks in advance.

The Investigation and Prosecution Team

I accept committing below offence and sincerely apologise to Tfl and the general public

On the 10th of April 2023, I travelled from Coventry City to London for the first time ever to collect my BRP (Biometric Residence Permit) and on 11th of April, I was at the London Victoria coach station waiting for my bus so I can travel back to Coventry City. I bumped into an old friend, excitedly exchanged greetings and decided to share a cigarette. On lighting my cigarette, I had a call which I got carried away and a little distracted before enforcement officers approached me. I explained to the officer that I went over there to get a quieter place to take the call, I quenched the cigarette immediately and tendered an apology and explained what happened.

I answered every question I was asked without any hesitation.

I sincerely regret my actions and do apologise to the great city of London, TFL and the entire public. I'm only few weeks in the UK having arrived on April 1st, 2023. I have always been law abiding from the country I came from. I honestly plead mercy as I should not have been smoking there.

Please, take this letter as my humble apology to everyone and the entire city. I can assure that there will never be a repeat of such incident as I will be more careful next time. I have so much respect for laws and this country.

Kindly find attached document evidences for the below
1. My flight ticket into the UK and letter to collect my BRP (Biometric Residency Permit) in London
2. My coach ticket that brought me to the location

Thanking you in advance for your leniency and kind consideration

Personally I think that is a nicely written letter in your own words, and I'd hope they would look kindly n your request.

Good luck with things!

PS - You might want to start 'Dear Investigation and Prosecution Team' as 'Dear' would be the UK convention to start a letter.

 

[Vic2023]

@AlterEgo commented that there's no need extending the apology to the public and the city. Is this shared by a majority?

Also @SouthEastBuses commented that the documents might not be necessary. I wanted something to show that I really came into the country this April and me being a super newbie into the UK and still trying to take in all the information all around was the extenuating circumstances that lead to the offence. Maybe the coach ticket might not be that relevant.

 

[Horizon22]

It is quite possible (and probable) that the quarter circle of footway in front of the entrance (surfaced in mastic asphalt) is not public highway, but the areas paved with slabs is the only public area; ie the area behind the building frontage line is not public highway. (for the purposes of the tape, all depends on which areas are "maintained at the public expense", and those that aren't.

Yes it really depends where the boundary is. This is not always obvious.

Paddington main entrance has no smoking signs all the way along one side of the ramp down to the platforms, but it is allowed on the other side. I gather this is Network Rail property though although most people would think it is "public".

The somewhat excessive signage I would suggest implies they've had continual issues with this over a period of time and the enforcement officers have dealt with this issue time and time again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Apr 2023 ==

@AlterEgo commented that there's no need extending the apology to the public and the city. Is this shared by a majority?

Yes, there is no need.

 

[Vic2023]

I have reworded things a bit.

Dear Investigation and Prosecution Team

I accept committing the below offence and sincerely apologise to TFL and its users.

On the 10th of April, I travelled from Coventry City to London for the first time ever to collect my BRP (Biometric Residence Permit) and on 11th of April, I was at the London Victoria coach station waiting for my bus so I can travel back to Coventry City having been guided and escorted to the station.

I surprisingly bumped into an old friend, excitedly exchanged greetings and decided to share a cigarette. On lighting my cigarette, I had a call which I got carried away and a little distracted before enforcement officers approached me. I explained to the officer that I went over there to get a quieter place to take the call, I quenched the cigarette immediately and tendered an apology and explained what happened. I answered every question I was asked without any hesitation.

I sincerely regret my actions and do apologise to TFL and it’s using public. I'm only a few days in the UK for the first time ever having arrived on April 1st, 2023. This is my first time leaving the shores of my country and I do confess that I am really working on taking in all the information all around like signs, directions, buses, trains etc.

I have always been law abiding from the country I came from. I honestly plead mercy as I should not have been smoking there.

Please, take this letter as my humble apology once more. I can assure that there will never be a repeat of such incident as I will be more careful next time. I have so much respect for laws and this country.

Kindly find attached document evidence for the below
1. My flight ticket into the UK and letter to collect my BRP (Biometric Residency Permit) in London. BRP gives me ability to stay in the UK over a given period.
2. My coach ticket that brought me to the location

I will really appreciate if this is settled without a court action.

Thanking you in advance for your leniency and kind consideration.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have reworded things a bit.

Dear Investigation and Prosecution Team

Thank you for your letter of (date). I accept committing the below offence and sincerely apologise to TFL and its users.

On the 10th of April, I travelled from Coventry City to London for the first time ever to collect my BRP (Biometric Residence Permit) and on 11th of April, I was at the London Victoria coach station waiting for my bus so I can travel back to Coventry City having been guided and escorted to the station.

I surprisingly bumped into an old friend, excitedly exchanged greetings and decided to share a cigarette. On lighting my cigarette, I had a call which I got carried away and a little distracted before enforcement officers approached me. I explained to the officer that I went over there to get a quieter place to take the call, I put out the cigarette immediately and apologised. I answered every question I was asked without any hesitation.

I sincerely regret my actions and do apologise to TFL. and it’s using public. I did not intend to break any rules or cause anyone any inconvenience.

I'm only a few days in the UK for the first time ever having arrived on April 1st, 2023. This is my first time leaving the shores of my country and I do confess that I am really working on taking in all the information all around like signs, directions, buses, trains etc.

I have always been law abiding from the country I came from. I honestly plead mercy as I should not have been smoking there.

Please, take this letter as my humble apology once more. I can assure that there will never be a repeat of such incident as I will be more careful next time. I have so much respect for laws and this country.

Kindly find attached document evidence for the below
1. My flight ticket into the UK and letter to collect my BRP (Biometric Residency Permit) in London. BRP gives me ability to stay in the UK over a given period.
2. My coach ticket that brought me to the location

I will really appreciate if this is settled without a court action, and hope you will look favourably on this one-time mistake.

Thanking you in advance for your leniency and kind consideration.

I've edited this down to take out some of the less necessary parts and added in a few clarifying lines. You really do not need to apologise several times in the letter, and you do not need to apologise to the public. TfL don't really care about that - this is a minor administrative matter. Adding in the details about your BRP is fine though and actually a good idea, it reinforces you are new to this country and its restrictive culture around smoking.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

do apologise to the great city of London, TFL and the entire public.

my humble apology to everyone and the entire city.

I'd avoid making hyperbolic statements like this which read as somewhat insincere and sarcastic, particularly due to the not severe nature of the "crime." I wouldn't be surprised if someone thought you were being facetious.

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd avoid making hyperbolic statements like this which read as somewhat insincere and sarcastic, particularly due to the not severe nature of the "crime." I wouldn't be surprised if someone thought you were being facetious.

Interesting - as it read to me like something genuinely written by someone for whome English was not 1st language and wanted the officials to understand that they took the matter seriously! Shows how nuance can get lost in the translation.

But to OP @Vic2023 - I agree with others that it is not strictly necessary and so long as you are apologising to them and clear. No harm in including copies of docs that show you have indeed just arrived if you wish.

Might be worth stating what BRP stands for - many British People (including those who will deal with your letter) may have no idea what it stands for.

Good luck!

 

[Vic2023]

Thanks everyone for the inputs and feedbacks. I will send it out and update on the outcome.

 

[celdor]

Miles off topic but I have lived in this country for over 70 years and wonder what the sign is
in the second picture just to the right of the man in the brown jacket.
Silhouette of a man in a red circle with a line through.
On its own with no indication, does it just mean NO people allowed here ? and if so were
all the people within sight of it breaking some law and were any apprehended.

I will be staying away from the coach station.

 

[D365]

I'd avoid making hyperbolic statements like this which read as somewhat insincere and sarcastic, particularly due to the not severe nature of the "crime." I wouldn't be surprised if someone thought you were being facetious.

Interesting - as it read to me like something genuinely written by someone for whome English was not 1st language and wanted the officials to understand that they took the matter seriously! Shows how nuance can get lost in the translation.

But to OP @Vic2023 - I agree with others that it is not strictly necessary and so long as you are apologising to them and clear. No harm in including copies of docs that show you have indeed just arrived if you wish.

As a bilingual speaker, I agree with @WesternLancer on this occasion.

I apologised and she then wished me well and walked off, but not before giving me a packet of sweets.

You have a very appropriate username for this anecdote!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Miles off topic but I have lived in this country for over 70 years and wonder what the sign is
in the second picture just to the right of the man in the brown jacket.
Silhouette of a man in a red circle with a line through.
On its own with no indication, does it just mean NO people allowed here ? and if so were
all the people within sight of it breaking some law and were any apprehended.

I will be staying away from the coach station.

It means no pedestrians (you'll see it on the end of a lot of railway station platforms!). More recently the "no blokes in a hard hat shouting and waving a badly burned hand" sign tends to be used instead.

Those crossing further in are crossing between two parts of the station. You're not meant to enter that way.

 

[Joe Paxton]

A couple of views (from Google Street View) of the Victoria Coach Station exit on Elizabeth Street where the OP says they were smoking...

 

[Mawkie]

For the avoidance of doubt, TfL produce an asset register and extensive mapping covering their land and areas of influence. It can be viewed here.

I have attached a screenshot of VCS exit. Hopefully the OP can confirm if they were inside or outside the green shading (which extends further than the actual building).

 

[P Binnersley]

A couple of views (from Google Street View) of the Victoria Coach Station exit on Elizabeth Street where the OP says they were smoking...

In VCS1.jpg there is a sign to the left of the man in the brown top saying "No smoking beyond this point". This implies smoking is allowed up to that point. There is as outrigger no smoking sign opposite in VCS2.jpg, which has different wording which is unfortunately not legible.

 

[furlong]

There is as outrigger no smoking sign opposite in VCS2.jpg, which has different wording which is unfortunately not legible.

The (double-sided) sign on the left is the one that is worded in a way intended to make smoking anywhere in the coach station a byelaw offence. It should be repeated in more places IMHO. (Indoors there are also the separate 'enclosed spaces' restrictions.)

"No Smoking It is a criminal offence to smoke in any part of Victoria Coach Station including this area Anyone in violation of this law wil be prosecuted"

 

[ChewChewTrain]

As a bilingual speaker, I agree with @WesternLancer on this occasion.


You have a very appropriate username for this anecdote!

My goodness; so I do! They were chewy sweets as well!

 

[superkopite]

One thing that isn't lacking is sufficient 'No Smoking' signage. That's assuming the signage is still there and given this capture is only 6 months old i'd wager it is.

View attachment 133240

If you were standing where the guy in the brown jacket is, I would argue you have no case to answer. The signage immediately adjacent to you simply you are within your rights to smoke there.

 

[185]

One thing that isn't lacking is sufficient 'No Smoking' signage.

7 signs in one picture. It's like a dystopian hell.

The exact location should be ascertained - there's a vague line visible between the brick pavement outside which is entirely public and legally unrestricted, or on the dark tarmac underneath the archway, which is TfL's land. If this is anywhere in the vicinity of that line, TfL could certainly struggle in court.

Pedestrians waiting in that archway are a nuisance for drivers, especially with a 15m vehicle, but I think the primary reason this overreaction relates to VCS getting stung by the fire brigade with various fire exits found filled up with junk and catering concession items several years back.

 

[AndyPJG]

A couple of views (from Google Street View) of the Victoria Coach Station exit on Elizabeth Street where the OP says they were smoking...

That is not the location referred to by the OP as per post #5.

 

[DaleCooper]

That is not the location referred to by the OP as per post #5.

See post #17 for corrected location.

 

[talldave]

A "No smoking beyond this point" sign affixed to a flat wall is meaningless. You cannot go through the wall beyond the sign (unless it's on a door!). If it's intended to operate in the same axis as the sign, is "beyond" to the left and "before" (or whatever the opposite of beyond is) to the right, or vice versa?

 

[Vic2023]

Update: I have received a response from TFL and it ended with a warning.

Thanks everyone for your contributions and guidance.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Update: I have received a response from TFL and it ended with a warning.

Thanks everyone for your contributions and guidance.

That's a good result. Thanks for letting us know.