Upgrade/excess to a rover?

[bob007]

Hey.

Can you excess an existing ticket to upgrade it to a rover? Eg Slaithwaite (SWT) - Leeds (LDS) day return to WY DaySaver?

 

[Wallsendmag]

In a word no.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't think so. In the olden days you could buy a ticket then exchange it as part payment for the fare you actually required (similar to how a permit to travel used to work). But that hasn't been a thing for quite a while now I believe. So I think the answer is, basically, no. Though presuming Slaithwaite has a Northern TVM you could just buy the DaySaver from the TVM.

 

[bob007]

Thanks for the replies! I’m already out, so I was curious about options.

And yes very happy to see the DaySaver added to the machines.

 

[MikeWM]

I don't think so. In the olden days you could buy a ticket then exchange it as part payment for the fare you actually required (similar to how a permit to travel used to work). But that hasn't been a thing for quite a while now I believe.

What is the *correct* thing to do if you are at a penalty fare station with ticket barriers (and repeating announcements that 'you MUST buy a ticket before you get on one of our trains'), the ticket office is closed when it should be open, and the rover/ranger ticket you want is only available at the ticket office?

Specifically, I'm referring to the situation I often encounter when trying to buy an Anglia Plus at Ely. They're not available from the TVMs or indeed any other way than from the ticket office. And Ely ticket office is often closed when it is is supposed to be open - they seem to currently be short of staff, once again.

Once in the past year I bought a single to Cambridge and Cambridge kindly exchanged that as part payment, as you suggest. But what are you supposed to do if heading to say Ipswich or Norwich first?

I do think that stations should have prominent posters explaining what you are *supposed* to do in such circumstances. Staff never seem to know what the solution is, so something authorative would be welcome to make sure I'm doing the right thing, and to refer staff to if they disagree that it is the right thing. I'm very uncomfortable getting on a train without *any* ticket in such cases, but if buying a different ticket isn't guaranteed to be taken as part-payment for the ticket you actually wanted, what to do?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect what would happen with a paper ticket and a clued-up booking office clerk who was working for the same TOC is that you'd buy a single to that interchange point and they'd non-issue the single for a full refund and sell you the Rover. I've had that a couple of times now when due to circumstances outside my control I've needed to swap a ticket for a different one that had at least the same validity as the bit of journey I'd already done.

However there's no guarantee of that, and it only works if it's the same TOC which in some cases it might not be, e.g. if you got on at a suburban Manchester Northern-operated station and tried to swap it at Manchester Piccadilly (Avanti), or you got on at Tring and needed to do it at Euston where there's no longer a LNR booking office (which was one that did that for me in the past).

 

[Trainbike46]

If you're in Northern territory and the machine can't sell the ticket you want, getting a promise to pay notice from the machine, and buying the ticket you want from onboard staff or from a ticket office on the way would be a solution.

In GA territory, I would ask a member of staff what to do if one is around. As I understand it, GA regional services do allow you to buy on board, so from Ely if heading towards Norwich or Ipswich or Peterborough, you could buy a ticket on the train, but as I understand it that isn't allowed on (some of the) GA trains to Cambridge

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you're in Northern territory and the machine can't sell the ticket you want, getting a promise to pay notice from the machine, and buying the ticket you want from onboard staff or from a ticket office on the way would be a solution.

In GA territory, I would ask a member of staff what to do if one is around. As I understand it, GA regional services do allow you to buy on board, so from Ely if heading towards Norwich or Ipswich or Peterborough, you could buy a ticket on the train, but as I understand it that isn't allowed on (some of the) GA trains to Cambridge

Greater Anglia appear to have done what BR used to do and have Paytrain routes on which you can pay on board regardless of whether there's a facility at your origin or not, subject to not being stopped by a gateline. The mainline routes have Penalty Fares and this doesn't apply.

The Marston Vale has long been informally treated that way up to COVID, though TVMs have now been installed. They'd even let you through the gateline at Bletchley if you said that's what you were doing.

 

[Watershed]

If you're in Northern territory and the machine can't sell the ticket you want, getting a promise to pay notice from the machine, and buying the ticket you want from onboard staff or from a ticket office on the way would be a solution.

In GA territory, I would ask a member of staff what to do if one is around. As I understand it, GA regional services do allow you to buy on board, so from Ely if heading towards Norwich or Ipswich or Peterborough, you could buy a ticket on the train, but as I understand it that isn't allowed on (some of the) GA trains to Cambridge

The GA services are only 'buy on board'/paytrain if boarding at certain stations, and Ely isn't one of them (likely because of their handful of DOO services to London) - see this map.

It's a difficult situation as there is no strict entitlement in the NRCoT to buy onboard merely because you can't buy the ticket you want to buy at your origin station. With Advances now often being available until just 10 minutes before the train leaves, I suppose there's an argument that you would otherwise be entitled to buy onboard if you wanted to buy an Advance but the ticket machines didn't sell it to you.

The easiest way of avoiding problems is to use a payment method that isn't accepted at the station - e.g. cash if the ticket machines only take card, or RTVs if they do. Obviously that may still present difficulties if the barriers are in operation and the staff won't let you through (this is a problem at quite a few other stations without ticket offices, e.g. in TfL land). But if you can get on the train, you're 'safe'.

 

[Trainbike46]

The GA services are only 'buy on board'/paytrain if boarding at certain stations, and Ely isn't one of them (likely because of their handful of DOO services to London) - see this map.

Ah, so it is a station basis rather than a service basis - though the stations do seem to be the ones that exclusively have regional services

It's a difficult situation as there is no strict entitlement in the NRCoT to buy onboard merely because you can't buy the ticket you want to buy at your origin station. With Advances now often being available until just 10 minutes before the train leaves, I suppose there's an argument that you would otherwise be entitled to buy onboard if you wanted to buy an Advance but the ticket machines didn't sell it to you.

The easiest way of avoiding problems is to use a payment method that isn't accepted at the station - e.g. cash if the ticket machines only take card, or RTVs if they do. Obviously that may still present difficulties if the barriers are in operation and the staff won't let you through (this is a problem at quite a few other stations without ticket offices, e.g. in TfL land). But if you can get on the train, you're 'safe'.

That seems like a good strategy.

Though, if the barriers are in operation, you can ask the barrier staff for advice. GA staff is, in my experience at least, usually very helpful.

 

[MikeWM]

I suspect what would happen with a paper ticket and a clued-up booking office clerk who was working for the same TOC is that you'd buy a single to that interchange point and they'd non-issue the single for a full refund and sell you the Rover. I've had that a couple of times now when due to circumstances outside my control I've needed to swap a ticket for a different one that had at least the same validity as the bit of journey I'd already done.

Yes, and if say going to Cambridge as a first stop, I'm ok doing that because (a) Cambridge ticket office staff are great and will almost certainly do it, and (b) if they didn't, a single to Cambridge isn't that much money to have lost. It's a different story for say Ipswich or Norwich as a first stop, a single to there isn't a trivial amount.

--

Though, if the barriers are in operation, you can ask the barrier staff for advice. GA staff is, in my experience at least, usually very helpful.

The general response of the barrier staff at Ely is friendly but effectively amounts to 'dunno what you should do'. They do offer to let you through in such circumstances, but as above I'm very wary of then getting on a train without any ticket without some 'official' statement/documentation of what you *should* be doing in this case. Hence why I think there should be notices/posters explaining what the correct thing to do is in such circumstances.

 

[Haywain]

The general response of the barrier staff at Ely is friendly but effectively amounts to 'dunno what you should do'. They do offer to let you through in such circumstances, but as above I'm very wary of then getting on a train without any ticket without some 'official' statement/documentation of what you *should* be doing in this case. Hence why I think there should be notices/posters explaining what the correct thing to do is in such circumstances.

For your particular example, you could try asking Greater Anglia on Twitter or other social media channels.

 

[MikeWM]

For your particular example, you could try asking Greater Anglia on Twitter or other social media channels.

I could, but I don't post on any social media, and don't particularly feel inclined to start doing so. Plus I'm not convinced they would give me any more an 'official' answer than the polite 'dunno' I get from the gateline staff. And I don't particularly want to hang around Ely station while waiting for someone to answer me - not least because, since they put the ticket gates in last year, there's nowhere *to* wait if you don't have a ticket.

There really ought to be an 'official' answer to this scenario, and it ought to be communicated on the station somehow, even though I appreciate it is fairly rare. There are enough big scary notices around the station telling me the consequences if I don't buy a ticket. It only seems reasonable to equally have a notice telling me what to do if, through the fault of the train company not staffing the ticket office during advertised opening hours, I can't.

 

[Alex365Dash]

The general response of the barrier staff at Ely is friendly but effectively amounts to 'dunno what you should do'. They do offer to let you through in such circumstances, but as above I'm very wary of then getting on a train without any ticket without some 'official' statement/documentation of what you *should* be doing in this case. Hence why I think there should be notices/posters explaining what the correct thing to do is in such circumstances.

I’d probably go through the gateline, find the guard on the service before boarding the train and ask to purchase an Anglia Plus ranger/rover from the guard noting that the ticket office is closed.

The reason you ask before boarding rather than before travelling is because the Penalty Fares Regulations and Railway Byelaws forbid boarding trains without a ticket with the purpose of travelling even if you intend to purchase a ticket before you actually end up travelling, and whilst most staff are pragmatic, I’d entirely prefer not to end up in the situation where I break the letter but not the spirit of the law!

Of course, it’d be much easier to just get written confirmation from Greater Anglia as to what to actually do prior to arriving at the station, and unfortunately the quickest way is on social media, considering it’ll probably take too long by email, and there’s no paper trail by phone.

And I don't particularly want to hang around Ely station while waiting for someone to answer me - not least because, since they put the ticket gates in last year, there's nowhere *to* wait if you don't have a ticket.

The great thing about social media is you can ask them from the comfort of your own home and use the message as evidence later when you actually get to the station!

 

[plymothian]

On GWR TVMs there is a notice that states what you can buy from that particular TVM, and ends with 'for anything else, please buy online or speak to a member of staff'. Ergo, at an unstaffed station, 'speak to a member of staff' gives permission to board the train without a ticket.

 

[Watershed]

On GWR TVMs there is a notice that states what you can buy from that particular TVM, and ends with 'for anything else, please buy online or speak to a member of staff'. Ergo, at an unstaffed station, 'speak to a member of staff' gives permission to board the train without a ticket.

I don't think it does that. It's really inviting you to speak to a member of station staff, though equally you could try and speak to the guard on the platform (if there is one).

 

[fandroid]

I don't think it does that. It's really inviting you to speak to a member of station staff, though equally you could try and speak to the guard on the platform (if there is one).

Surely the only interpretation of that GWR notice on unstaffed stations is to speak to a member of train staff. It's probably a good idea to take a photo of the notice though!

We here know of all the bear traps that there are if staff aren't immediately available to help, but it's not a common request and forum members know where to come for help if it all goes pear-shaped.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just to clarify, can Rovers/Rangers now be bought from all of Northern's unstaffed stations, provided it's got a working TVM and you've got a working payment card?

 

[Watershed]

Surely the only interpretation of that GWR notice on unstaffed stations is to speak to a member of train staff. It's probably a good idea to take a photo of the notice though!

We here know of all the bear traps that there are if staff aren't immediately available to help, but it's not a common request and forum members know where to come for help if it all goes pear-shaped.

Not necessarily. You could speak to a member of staff through the help point. And "speak to" still doesn't equate to "board the train".

I'm afraid it would be wishful thinking to believe that the notice gives permission to buy on board.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just to clarify, can Rovers/Rangers now be bought from all of Northern's unstaffed stations, provided it's got a working TVM and you've got a working payment card?

I believe so but @northernman should be able to confirm

 

[MikeWM]

I’d probably go through the gateline, find the guard on the service before boarding the train and ask to purchase an Anglia Plus ranger/rover from the guard noting that the ticket office is closed.

Which is fine if the train has a guard. But not all trains serving Ely that the Anglia Plus is valid on have guards - GN, and the occasional GA, are DOO. And I've no idea if EMR guards can sell them?

The reason you ask before boarding rather than before travelling is because the Penalty Fares Regulations and Railway Byelaws forbid boarding trains without a ticket with the purpose of travelling even if you intend to purchase a ticket before you actually end up travelling, and whilst most staff are pragmatic, I’d entirely prefer not to end up in the situation where I break the letter but not the spirit of the law!

Well, indeed, hence why I'm somewhat reluctant to do the wrong thing, and why I think therefore it should be clearly specified, in writing, what is the *right* thing.

The great thing about social media is you can ask them from the comfort of your own home and use the message as evidence later when you actually get to the station!

But even if I wished to use social media for this sort of thing, I don't know there is going to be an issue until I get to the station and see the ticket office isn't open...

 

[northernman]

Just to clarify, can Rovers/Rangers now be bought from all of Northern's unstaffed stations, provided it's got a working TVM and you've got a working payment card?

Yes that is correct

 

[D6130]

Yes that is correct

Presumably that excludes All-Line rovers?

 

[Alex365Dash]

Presumably that excludes All-Line rovers?

The range of rovers and rangers the TVM sells (which I believe is literally all of them) includes both First and Standard Class All Line Rovers.

 

[D6130]

The range of rovers and rangers the TVM sells (which I believe is literally all of them) includes both First and Standard Class All Line Rovers.

Wow! However I don't think I would want to trust a TVM with a transaction potentially running into four figures, given how unreliable the TVMs at Hebden Bridge are. Good to know that it's available in extremis though.

 

[Haywain]

However I don't think I would want to trust a TVM with a transaction potentially running into four figures, given how unreliable the TVMs at Hebden Bridge are. Good to know that it's available in extremis though.

I would be interested to know whether that would actually be possible. Some years ago at LNER we had the TVMs set to a maximum card transaction value of (I think) £999, so that anything more would simply not provide the payment option (the maximum cash value was somewhat lower and governed by the maximum number of notes you could put into the machine).

 

[Alex365Dash]

Wow! However I don't think I would want to trust a TVM with a transaction potentially running into four figures, given how unreliable the TVMs at Hebden Bridge are. Good to know that it's available in extremis though.

The First Class 14 Day All Line Rover does run into four figures at £1,323

I would be interested to know whether that would actually be possible. Some years ago at LNER we had the TVMs set to a maximum card transaction value of (I think) £999, so that anything more would simply not provide the payment option (the maximum cash value was somewhat lower and governed by the maximum number of notes you could put into the machine).

If this would be the case with Northern TVMs, this would result in the awkward situation of there being no payment methods to actually use for a 1st Class 14 Day All Line Rover! I’m sure @northernman can confirm whether that’s the case though

 

[Haywain]

If this would be the case with Northern TVMs, this would result in the awkward situation of there being no payment methods to actually use for a 1st Class 14 Day All Line Rover!

It's not that much of a big deal - it's not like they are bought on a daily basis.