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Ideas for how the Denton and Middlewich lines could be better utilised

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507020

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Diverting an existing Manchester-bound service over such a slow route to Victoria would be very unpopular (especially when some people from west of Manchester get so precious about retaining a castlefield/ Piccadilly link for their station but are happy for places like Buxton to have a time penalty and downgrade to Victoria…)

Running a longer distance route via Denton runs into the problem of how frequently to do it to make it worthwhile. A couple of services a day isn’t much use when there are such frequent services from West Yorkshire to central Manchester and central Manchester to the Midlands/ South.
I do think as many places as possible should have direct services to both to maximise connectivity, nowhere should lose service to Piccadilly that already have it and nothing should be allowed to terminate at Oxford Road. To take the example of Buxton, it was promised 2tph but has not received it. I’m sure they would be happier with 1tph to Piccadilly via Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme and 1tph to Victoria via Reddish South and Denton. I wouldn’t think of Victoria as a downgrade, just a different destination, which is not necessarily desirable for the same purposes.
And with the trundle through Denton, there’s not going to be much of a time saving for direct trains. But then running it more frequently would probably come at the cost of some existing services from West Yorkshire to central Manchester and central Manchester to the Midlands/ South (given the finite number of paths).

Who’d want their long established service into central Manchester to be replaced by this? (Since, although there’s a frequent route through Huddersfield/ Stockport, to divert an hourly service, running a long distance route that way might mean Middlesbrough or Oxford losing their train to central Manchester)
Part of the argument is that the inadequacies of the infrastructure mean there are not enough paths to run these services, which is what forces people to change at Piccadilly in the first place. Obviously cutting services to Manchester is unacceptable. You could of course run Saltburn - Reading, but it would be a bit ridiculous.
This only helps people originating from Hudds. People from Bradford still have to drive, and people from Leeds or Sheffield have the XC or M1/M42 routes. I struggle to believe that Huddersfield is contributing so much traffic to the M60 on it's own that the West Mids portion of it would make such a substantial shift to rail that it would save even 1 second of congestion.
Or do you just run a shuttle from Stalybridge to Stockport and see if people doing something like Leeds to Stoke would prefer to change twice to avoid Piccadilly or just change once at busy Piccadilly?

The only (existing) service I could see the merits of extending to Stockport would be the Bradford - Huddersfield… But there’s nothing south of Stockport for it to run on to (without depriving somewhere of a long established link into central Manchester)
Given that this proposal mainly benefits Bradford and Huddersfield, with Leeds itself having the Midland route, couldn’t you just run Bradford Interchange - Stockport, terminating there and giving Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield the connectivity at Stockport with only 1 change and not depriving somewhere further south of a Manchester service? That sounds like a good compromise to me.

The question then becomes how often do you serve Reddish South and Denton because the purpose of this service has become something different.
It’s a bit like the idea for a “Glasgow Crossrail”, easy to suggest that someone loses a direct train into the city centre to provide an “orbital” Link just as long as it’s not my own local line, eh?

Ultimately, if you want to improve the service from West Yorkshire to the West Midlands then resource the existing XC route better (or build HS2 through Yorkshire properly). Coming up with half baked alternatives is a bit like the suggestions that we need Leeds-Settle-Glasgow to relive pressure on XC (or more routes via the Marches etc)… run full length trains on XC and we wouldn’t need to come up with convoluted alternatives
My understanding of the Glasgow Crossrail proposal is that it is to free up capacity at Glasgow Central High Level by diverting services via Queen Street Low Level, which is equally in the city centre. St Enoch would be useful though. The annoyance would be if you were trying to change for London or the south, but connections with Edinburgh and highlands services at Queen Street would be improved.

Of course the proper HS2 route from Leeds to Birmingham Curzon Street would trump going via Reddish South and Denton, but Leeds - Skipton - Kilmarnock - Glasgow serves a purpose in that reaching Glasgow from the ECML requires a circuitous diversion via Berwick-upon-Tweed and Edinburgh and doubling back via Leeds from the Skipton direction is just a waste of time when Skipton is closer to Glasgow in the same way Huddersfield is closer to Birmingham.
Denton station is poorly placed but reddish south is well placed, and there could be more stations built on the line.

Given the line isn't a direct line, its success is dependent off other lines, improve those lines and it will improve.
It is a direct line though, direct from Stockport to Stalybridge avoiding Manchester. There needs to be more lines like this if only there was a consensus that they should be served at all.
 
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BeijingDave

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A service like Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Stockport-Birmingham would help ease congestion on the roads for people travelling between the eastern M62 and the southbound M6 or westbound M56 - it would take some pressure off the M62 and eastern side of the M60.
This was my thinking really. Huddersfield, Stockport and Wolverhampton are not small places and a Leeds-Birmingham service this way would link them in a way that the current Leeds-Birmingham service does not.

Huddersfield-Birmingham without a change must be attractive to a reasonable number of people, as must Wolverhampton-Leeds.
 

43074

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I do think as many places as possible should have direct services to both to maximise connectivity, nowhere should lose service to Piccadilly that already have it and nothing should be allowed to terminate at Oxford Road. To take the example of Buxton, it was promised 2tph but has not received it. I’m sure they would be happier with 1tph to Piccadilly via Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme and 1tph to Victoria via Reddish South and Denton. I wouldn’t think of Victoria as a downgrade, just a different destination, which is not necessarily desirable for the same purposes.
What's wrong with a half hourly service to Piccadilly then the tram every 6 minutes to Victoria?
 

507020

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What's wrong with a half hourly service to Piccadilly then the tram every 6 minutes to Victoria?
From where? Stockport, Denton or Buxton? Nowhere actually has this. Only Bury and Shaw have a tram every 6 minutes to Victoria. Everywhere else has a service only once every 12 minutes or direct service only to Piccadilly.
 

HSTEd

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I suppose the Denton line's biggest problem is that it joins the line through stockport north of the viaduct.

Which means trains on it are fighting the main line trains for paths.

If it joined south of the viaduct you'd probably be able to stick the trains into a bay by themselves and just run shuttles and get a reasonable amount of use.

As it is you can't really do anything with it at all.
 

Meerkat

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Middlewich is one of the reopenings that just wont die, like Skipton-Colne.
For 15,000 people it would struggle to get a station opened on a busy through line, I really can't see it being worth making an awkward diversion talking trains away from other places or linking two relatively minor destinations. The answer is a decent bus service to the most convenient stations (maybe Winsford-Holmes Chapel). The cost of a railway reopening would buy a lot of decent bus stops, bus priority schemes, maybe even a decent contribution to a bypass.
What journeys would the Denton line provide - local trips to Stockport and connections to TPE? I struggle to see they would be enough to justify using the paths across Stockport Viaduct and Guide Bridge - if HS2 frees up the viaduct wont there be pent up demand for Manchester local services to improve?
 

Kite159

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Middlewich is one of the reopenings that just wont die, like Skipton-Colne.
For 15,000 people it would struggle to get a station opened on a busy through line, I really can't see it being worth making an awkward diversion talking trains away from other places or linking two relatively minor destinations. The answer is a decent bus service to the most convenient stations (maybe Winsford-Holmes Chapel). The cost of a railway reopening would buy a lot of decent bus stops, bus priority schemes, maybe even a decent contribution to a bypass.
What journeys would the Denton line provide - local trips to Stockport and connections to TPE? I struggle to see they would be enough to justify using the paths across Stockport Viaduct and Guide Bridge - if HS2 frees up the viaduct wont there be pent up demand for Manchester local services to improve?
At least unlike Colne - Skipton the railway line already exists at Middlewich.
 

Topological

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Re Middlewich

OA doing Altrincham, Hale, Middlewich, Crewe then either a Trent Valley station or Tame Bridge then Euston? Would need a 80x bimode but presumably could do peak workings south in the morning then a middle of the day run north and be back south to run a peak train north? Only issue I can see is that it would need maintaining at the same depot as Avanti 80x so may need some longer distance empty movements.

I know a lot of people use Wilmslow and Stockport as railheads but maybe offering a few more Cheshire stations would attract some business. The new South Wales OA has proposed a station in North Swansea, so the cost of Middlewich might not be that unreasonable.

* This is a speculative idea so probably has all sorts of holes.
 

BeijingDave

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Northwich and surrounding areas (including Leftwich, Middlewich etc) is a reasonably large place so I think a Middlewich service would probably be well used.

It's just that a Manchester - Crewe service is probably a lot less useful than a Manchester - Chester service to people in the area. A lot of people from Northwich area commute to Chester and Avanti services can be picked up from a Chester or Stockport change, making a Crewe service not that amazingly useful, especially if it comes at the cost of fewer Chester services.
 

The Planner

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Re Middlewich

OA doing Altrincham, Hale, Middlewich, Crewe then either a Trent Valley station or Tame Bridge then Euston? Would need a 80x bimode but presumably could do peak workings south in the morning then a middle of the day run north and be back south to run a peak train north? Only issue I can see is that it would need maintaining at the same depot as Avanti 80x so may need some longer distance empty movements.

I know a lot of people use Wilmslow and Stockport as railheads but maybe offering a few more Cheshire stations would attract some business. The new South Wales OA has proposed a station in North Swansea, so the cost of Middlewich might not be that unreasonable.

* This is a speculative idea so probably has all sorts of holes.
That is a some hammer to crack a very small nut. It just needs a local service.
 
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