What will it take for Southern to get new trains?

[Sutton in Ant]

I have seen so many views and this is what I am going to put. There are times that I would journey home from a train at Clapham Junction but I find out that some of the services have been cut and some of the trains would have been 8 coaches in length. Turn out to be 5 coaches in length. When I get on the train. I find out that it is nearly full and I am struggling to find a seat as I have osteoarthritis in both of my knees and I can end up in a lot of pain because of it.

With GN. They have been getting extra rolling stock for their routes to Ely and Kings Lynn. I have no issues with GN but if Southern needed extra rolling stock. The answer would be not happening.

I asked a staff member at a station about extra rolling stock for Sothern railway and the staff member that there is no new rolling stock that is coming to southern railway.

I think that what GTR has done with Southern rolling stock and cutting service in my view is very poor by GTR Southern. In my view, this was not thought out really well and also it is to cut corners and worry about profits before the well-being of passengers.

I just hope that in the future Southern Railway's performance will improve, but I very much doubt it.

The last thing is this. If Southeastern Railway were to get rid of all their 377s within a year and end up in storage like the 379s and the 350/2s. That would be a complete waste of money and a waste of trying to maintain them while they are all in storage.

 

[JonathanH]

I think that what GTR has done with Southern rolling stock and cutting service in my view is very poor by GTR Southern. In my view, this was not thought out really well and also it is to cut corners and worry about profits before the well-being of passengers.

GTR are just running the service that can be afforded within the budget set by the DfT, and in turn the Treasury. It isn't about company profits, just the level of subsidy available from the taxpayer. GTR just agree the service that the DfT is prepared to pay for.

Other threads have indicated that the train companies present plans to the DfT and costed options for how to meet budgets in the most effective way.

 

[jojoseph72]

I think that what GTR has done with Southern rolling stock and cutting service in my view is very poor by GTR Southern. In my view, this was not thought out really well and also it is to cut corners and worry about profits before the well-being of passengers.

Not really for profit but to keep DfT happy with budget cuts. When you need to make 10% cost savings the best way without cutting services all together is to cut rolling stock.

The last thing is this. If Southeastern Railway were to get rid of all their 377s within a year and end up in storage like the 379s and the 350/2s.

That wouldn’t happen… from memory SE 377s are subleased to them from SN meaning when the sublease is up they’ll head back to SN

 

[JonathanH]

That wouldn’t happen… from memory SE 377s are subleased to them from SN meaning when the sublease is up they’ll head back to SN

It probably can't be dismissed as being impossible.

 

[jojoseph72]

I just hope that in the future Southern Railway's performance will improve, but I very much doubt it.

Southern performance post pandemic has been quite good, overwhelming majority run on time.
I’d say performance has been the best it’s been in years!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2023 ==

It probably can't be dismissed as being impossible.

I pray it doesn’t happen, but I also feel it’ll be an easy way for the DfT to pass it off as saying proving “new” rolling stock and increase capacity.

 

[D365]

What about the 614?

Not a Porterbrook unit.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Its true they scrapped the 442s, 455s and 313s without replacements although Thameslink did take over some workings. Southern however took over some Gatwick Express workings

Not strictly true, the 387s were ordered to replace the 442s.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

GTR are just running the service that can be afforded within the budget set by the DfT, and in turn the Treasury. It isn't about company profits, just the level of subsidy available from the taxpayer. GTR just agree the service that the DfT is prepared to pay for.

Other threads have indicated that the train companies present plans to the DfT and costed options for how to meet budgets in the most effective way.

In that case. What we have is the DFT being stubborn with money which means that the DFT and this government are being stooges. I should have known that the DFT is as badly run like this government.

 

[MattRat]

One wonders how much latent induced demand could be created from bringing more aspects of the pre-covid timetable back. It probably varies heavily on the area. Although it's little use speculating on that now. It's just a shame that certain services such as the Dorking fasts are unlikely to make a return for the foreseeable future.

Or how much demand is being surpressed by current timetables, strikes, TOC problems, etc. Although if we are being on topic, only the first two affect Southern as far as I'm aware.

 

[jojoseph72]

In that case. What we have is the DFT being stubborn with money which means that the DFT and this government are being stooges. I should have known that the DFT is as badly run like this government.

DfT well more importantly the Chancellor have been the people calling the shots. Government trying to recoup some of the money spent on railways during the pandemic, thus asking for a 10% cost cut.
This isn’t limited to just Southern, operators around the England are having to make significant cuts.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

Good news: the East Croydon - Watford service WILL be 5 coaches from May

When the Watford services goes to 5 car will it be driver only & are conductors trained on the 377/7s

 

[JonathanH]

When the Watford services goes to 5 car will it be driver only & are conductors trained on the 377/7s

The conductors worked 377/7s before. It won't be driver only. If it could be driver only, it would already be happening on the 377/2s.

 

[Benjaminmorgan]

The conductors worked 377/7s before. It won't be driver only.

Thank you so much

 

[RobShipway]

I'm still not sure what hydrogen train you are talking about. The only hydrogen conversion that Porterbrook has demonstrated is the Class 799 (ex-319).

As has been explained many times within threads in these forums, the class 168 unit as per https://www.modernrailways.com/article/hybrid-168-first-step-chiltern-decarbonisation is powered by a Hydrogen battery, so in esseence is Hydrogen powered when using battery power.

DfT well more importantly the Chancellor have been the people calling the shots. Government trying to recoup some of the money spent on railways during the pandemic, thus asking for a 10% cost cut.
This isn’t limited to just Southern, operators around the England are having to make significant cuts.

You will probably find that over the next couple of years, there will be even more reductions in services, despite the government making a big thing about reopening of old disused lines.

Whilst I am glad about the opening of the disused lines, it will limit services on existing routes with the TOC's not having extra stock to be able to cover the disused lines, so services get cancelled for good on existing lines so that a minimum service can be provided on the reopened disused line.

 

[D365]

As has been explained many times within threads in these forums, the class 168 unit as per https://www.modernrailways.com/article/hybrid-168-first-step-chiltern-decarbonisation is powered by a Hydrogen battery, so in esseence is Hydrogen powered when using battery power.

That’s a diesel-electric ’hybrid’; no hydrogen is involved.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

DfT well more importantly the Chancellor have been the people calling the shots. Government trying to recoup some of the money spent on railways during the pandemic, thus asking for a 10% cost cut.
This isn’t limited to just Southern, operators around the England are having to make significant cuts.

The treasury is never honest in its words.

 

[43074]

Southern do not have a stock shortage. They have reduced their timetable which matches the stock available. Where is the evidence that they can't deliver that timetable?

The reduction of the Southern fleet size has drawn in part on the capacity still offered by the fixed formation Thameslink units. It has eliminated old units from the network and settled on a consistent fleet of trains. To do that without bringing in more trains and still offering broadly the same timetable is a masterstroke.

With respect this is nonsense.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

Southern do not have a stock shortage. They have reduced their timetable which matches the stock available. Where is the evidence that they can't deliver that timetable?

The reduction of the Southern fleet size has drawn in part on the capacity still offered by the fixed formation Thameslink units. It has eliminated old units from the network and settled on a consistent fleet of trains. To do that without bringing in more trains and still offering broadly the same timetable is a masterstroke.


What is sad about it, if that broadly matches the demand? It is nothing different from what happened elsewhere - eg 8-car trains on SWR with the removal of the 456s.


I imagine it will be redistribution of the fleet, with information about passenger loadings used to balance supply with demand.

Okay. Due respect. What about the reduction in the formation of train services and by that the trains get very overcrowded and for those who has a disability? If the train were full. How are they going to get to their area of the train? This is why passengers moan all the time about train services when the formation is only 4 or 5 coaches during the rush hour time?

While I respect your right of opinion. I am certainly not agreeing with you at all on this subject.

This is my opinion. In what the DFT and GTR Southern railway was very badly thought out here. There is not much consideration for the passenger who has mobility needs and has needs for a seat on the train as well as ladies who are pregnant.

I know for a fact that compromising services and the passenger's needs is not the 1 that should have been talked about.

 

[PGAT]

Can we also just talk about how poor the Turbostar routes are at the moment? Earlier today the Uckfield line only had 2 coaches to choose from!

 

[jojoseph72]

The treasury is never honest in its words.

When have they been

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

Okay. Due respect. What about the reduction in the formation of train services and by that the trains get very overcrowded and for those who has a disability? If the train were full. How are they going to get to their area of the train? This is why passengers moan all the time about train services when the formation is only 4 or 5 coaches during the rush hour time?

While I respect your right of opinion. I am certainly not agreeing with you at all on this subject.

This is my opinion. In what the DFT and GTR Southern railway was very badly thought out here. There is not much consideration for the passenger who has mobility needs and has needs for a seat on the train as well as ladies who are pregnant.

I know for a fact that compromising services and the passenger's needs is not the 1 that should have been talked about.

The DfT sadly don’t care, they are pressing ahead with their demands with little care for passengers.
Despite number rebounding and now hovering in average 80-90% pre-pandemic (I know revenue is up as much), they seem to have little care to try and boost growth.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2023 ==

Can we also just talk about how poor the Turbostar routes are at the moment? Earlier today the Uckfield line only had 2 coaches to choose from!

Hopefully that’s a one off, they are meant to have 3-6 cars off peak and 6-8 cars peak.

 

[JonathanH]

While I respect your right of opinion. I am certainly not agreeing with you at all on this subject.

This is my opinion. In what the DFT and GTR Southern railway was very badly thought out here. There is not much consideration for the passenger who has mobility needs and has needs for a seat on the train as well as ladies who are pregnant.

OK, I recognise your discomfort, so maybe the answer to the OP's question is that the valid concern over disability rights is the thing that leads to Southern having to expand its rolling stock.

However, my guess is that it would have to be proved that overcrowding is worse now than it was in 2019, and that Southern can't reshuffle capacity to make the position better. It doesn't answer the budgetary question though.

Either way, significant representations would need to be made via MPs or London Assembly members and disability rights groups as to the plight of immobile passengers.

I guess if it was TfL making the decisions to cut services, their impact statements would be available for all to see on the Mayor's website. The DfT decisions are not so visible.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Where is the evidence that they can't deliver that timetable?

Have a quick look at any coastway service.

 

[RobShipway]

Have a quick look at any coastway service.

Is that with the current services or with the new timetable from next month?

I have had a look at both West and East coastway services for both Thursday and Friday. All I can find is cancellation of the 11:53 from Fratton to Littlehampton and 12:58 Portsmouth & Southsea to Littlehampton services between 6am to 8pm on both days.

 

[Wolfie]

In that case. What we have is the DFT being stubborn with money which means that the DFT and this government are being stooges. I should have known that the DFT is as badly run like this government.

The financial drivers will come from HMT. DfT have a budget that they have to operate under too. Frankly it will, rightly in my view given the pressure that Government finances are under, take the view that if demand is down maintaining what could thus be regarded as excess capacity is not a good use of taxpayer's money.

 

[PGAT]

Hopefully that’s a one off, they are meant to have 3-6 cars off peak and 6-8 cars peak.

They’re booked for exclusively 3 coaches off-peak and some 3 car workings in the peak as well

 

[jojoseph72]

They’re booked for exclusively 3 coaches off-peak and some 3 car workings in the peak as well

Hopefully this is good news, but from May the morning peak services will see two 8 car and one 6 car service with the first service before and after the morning peak being lengthened from 3 to 5 cars. Whilst evening peaks should all be 8 cars.
Off peaks majority will be 3 cars, some will see 8 cars running around due to pathing.
That’s the overall goal for the Uckfield line from May… whether that happens in real life we will see.

 

[London Trains]

If anything is coming back it needs to be the Victoria to Dorking/Horsham fast services. Its a bit ridiculous that 20 coaches (Victoria to Dorking/Horsham fast and Victoria to Epsom slow were both 10 coaches) has been reduced to usually 4 or 5 coaches.

 

[PGAT]

If anything is coming back it needs to be the Victoria to Dorking/Horsham fast services. Its a bit ridiculous that 20 coaches (Victoria to Dorking/Horsham fast and Victoria to Epsom slow were both 10 coaches) has been reduced to usually 4 or 5 coaches.

Being a bit pedantic but previously they were half 8, half 10 coaches and are now half 5, some 8, and a few 10 coaches. But I do agree that these services are appalling, especially south of Epsom.

 

[Sutton in Ant]

OK, I recognise your discomfort, so maybe the answer to the OP's question is that the valid concern over disability rights is the thing that leads to Southern having to expand its rolling stock.

However, my guess is that it would have to be proved that overcrowding is worse now than it was in 2019, and that Southern can't reshuffle capacity to make the position better. It doesn't answer the budgetary question though.

Either way, significant representations would need to be made via MPs or London Assembly members and disability rights groups as to the plight of immobile passengers.

I guess if it was TfL making the decisions to cut services, their impact statements would be available for all to see on the Mayor's website. The DfT decisions are not so visible.

With this government. I my view, they do not care about the average human being.

 

[RobShipway]

With this government. I my view, they do not care about the average human being.

Whilst I agree with your comment and believe that it should not be the case of having to prove to the Government that they have got their figures wrong, especially in the fact of people with disability in wheelchairs not being able to get on crowded trains. You have to remember that many in the Government do not travel on trains as they will have limousines to take them from home to say the office or into London to attend events like Prime Ministers questions. So they are not seeing the impact that their changes are having on the general public.

The other issue you have is that many TOC's are still working on figures after Covid in the period 2020/2021, where the amount of people travelling was a lot less than we have either now or back in 2019. I don't believe that many of the TOC's realise that people have gone from working from home all week, to working from the office at least 3 days a week. I am the first to say that I don't travel on trains through the working week, but do have friends that do travel up from the likes of Brighton and Lewes up to London. They say that they find the busiest days for travelling is Monday, Wednesday and Friday. On Tuesday and Thursdays, they can at least find seats and that is even with travelling on the Brighton - London Gatwick Express service from Brighton station, the starting point of the service which is normally an 8 coach train. In the past though, the same service was a 12 coach train.

Now, the issue with the rush hour Gatwick Express services is that they stop at more places, so are semi - fast services rather than fast services, as the Gatwick Express services are being used to replace the Southern services between Brighton - London. A good example is the 0706 service from Brighton Station. The service stops at Preston Park, Hassocks, Burgess Hill and Haywards Heath before getting to Gatwick Airport. After that it goes straight through to London Victoria. This service I believe in the past was a 12 coach train from what I am led to believe from a friend, in the last 6 - 12 months though it has been changed to be an 8 coach train.

I know that Southern are using a few of the GatEX class 387 to replace the usage of class 377's which in turn are replacing the usage of class 455 and 313 units. But this for me is where Great Northern, if the price is right should be using the class 379 units with the class 387's then cascaded down to be used by Southern/Gatwick Express to lengthen the trains in service. But I know that it can be argued that other than the rush hour periods, there is no need to be using 12 coach GatEx trains between Brighton to London. So, what do you do with the spare units that are not being used which are not required by GatEx or by Southern for any of their services during the day? Bit of a waste of money if you are only using some of the units just for the rush hour periods, then after that they are stabled either at Brighton or Streatham Common is I believe the general thought of this Government.

Anyway, to get this thread back on track. As has been stated I think on the first page, Southern will certainly for the distant future at the moment not receive new trains, when there is ways of supplying more stock to Southern if required whether it is with using Class 387's from Great Northern or passing over class 377 units from South Eastern that are going spare.