Major signaling issues at London Waterloo [13/04]

[FuzzyDuck]

1L32 08:23 Exeter-Waterloo has just terminated at Wimbledon in the up slow platform, it can reverse there (see https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L21743/2023-04-13/detailed#allox_id=0).

Except it didn't, it's currently at Clapham Junction.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

All lines reopened at 10:45 - message from internal source.

Interesting! Over an hour gone since then and seemingly no public announcement/update on the issue yet.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Controllers don't rewrite timetables. They regulate services when things go wrong, like now!

I think this morning's situation required a bit more than regulation. You need an open railway to regulate trains for a start
With a major piece of infrastructure shut, then crew and stock diagrams go in the bin.

 

[jfollows]

Interesting! Over an hour gone since then and seemingly no public announcement/update on the issue yet.

NRE has an update timed at 11:42 saying that the problem has been fixed (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/322812.aspx).

Engineers on site have fixed the problem however, because of the length of time the lines have been blocked we are expecting severe disruption until the end of the day.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

NRE has an update timed at 11:42 saying that the problem has been fixed (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/322812.aspx).

Thanks.

This one?

https://twitter.com/nationalrailenq/status/1646463754652008449?s=20

Still indicating, however, that major disruption is expected until the end of the day.

Extract...

Following a signalling problem at #LondonWaterloo some lines have now reopened

A reduced service continues to operate

Major disruption is expected until the end of the day

 

[jfollows]

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/322812.aspx (not Twitter!) now (12:14) says

Due to an earlier major signalling problem we are advising customers not to attempt to travel today. Until further notice, a significantly reduced service will operate to and from London Waterloo.

• 2 services per hour between Reading and London Waterloo
• 2 services per hour between Windsor & Eton Riverside and London Waterloo
• 2 services per hour between Weybridge and London Waterloo via Staines
• 2 services per hour between Shepperton and London Waterloo via Richmond
• 2 services per hour between Ascot and Aldershot
• 2 services per hour between Farnham and Guildford
• 1 service per hour between Portsmouth and Southampton
• 1 service per hour between Salisbury and Romsey via Southampton Central
• 2 services per hour between Brockenhurst and Lymington Pier
• 1 train per hour between Exeter St Davids and Wimbledon
• West of England Shuttles between Basingstoke and Salisbury will run as booked
• Queenstown Road will not be served

However we've already seen an Exeter service continue to Waterloo, so I wouldn't assume this quote to be completely accurate, it looks like the one from earlier today anyway.

 

[Meerkat]

The flow of passengers on the SWR network goes from said stations to London in the morning, so it is not feasible to terminate services there.

AIUI more people commute into places like Woking/Guildford/Basingstoke than commute out (not sure whether that is rail specific though)
Even Godalming-Woking and Basingstoke-Woking shuttles would be useful.

 

[Goldfish62]

I think this morning's situation required a bit more than regulation. You need an open railway to regulate trains for a start
With a major piece of infrastructure shut, then crew and stock diagrams go in the bin.

I was responding to the comment that inferred that any revised services due to disruption needed a new timetable written.

 

[RedPostJunc]

It takes planners weeks or months to organise a timetable for known engineering works.
It will therefore be impossible for controllers to rewrite a day's timetable with two or less hours n

All lines reopened at 10:45 - message from internal source.

RealTimeTrains are showing that 1L25 1031½ Wimbledon to Exeter St Davids ran as a 15 coach train (5x159 units).
Did that actually happen, or is it some kind of admin muddle in the aftermath?

 

[zwk500]

RealTimeTrains are showing that 1L25 1031½ Wimbledon to Exeter St Davids ran as a 15 coach train (5x159 units).
Did that actually happen, or is it some kind of admin muddle in the aftermath?

Suspect it'll have been a set swap from a 6 to a 9 or Vice versa in the back-end systems as control were trying to get things moving.

 

[Surreytraveller]

RealTimeTrains are showing that 1L25 1031½ Wimbledon to Exeter St Davids ran as a 15 coach train (5x159 units).
Did that actually happen, or is it some kind of admin muddle in the aftermath?

Its the computers not keeping up with what's happening in real life.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2023 ==

I was responding to the comment that inferred that any revised services due to disruption needed a new timetable written.

Sorry, I saw you quoting me, so assumed it was me you were responding to

 

[7031]

Indeed - I can see that a 4 coach 455 left Waterloo earlier as well.

I'd wager this is more likely an error in the data than reality as 4 coach 455s are exceptionally rare.

 

[Deepgreen]

And has been alluded to above, a plan isnt available at the drop of a hat.

While you are absolutely right, I think that platforms 1 to 14 have been oos like this previously, perhaps a set of circuits that take out that tranche in the event of a certain failure mode, so I would imagine it not to be impossible to have an emergency timetable in place for that scenario. I could be wrong.

 

[infobleep]

As has been alluded to above, a plan isn't available at the drop of a hat.

I accept a plan isn't available at a drop of a hat but today Exter trains were terminating at Wimbledon, so could the trains from Weymouth have got as far as Bournemouth, along the same lines as the Exetwr trains terminating at Wimbledon?

I assumed but possibly incorrectly that the terminating at Wimbledon wasn't a new plan but just trains terminating early from the existing plan.

Also when the line at Havant is blocked trains are sometimes sent down via Eastleigh. So I thought, no doubt incorrectly, just running a train to Bournemouth would be possible and it wouldn't need a new plan to be written.

 

[swt_passenger]

While you are absolutely right, I think that platforms 1 to 14 have been oos like this previously, perhaps a set of circuits that take out that tranche in the event of a certain failure mode, so I would imagine it not to be impossible to have an emergency timetable in place for that scenario. I could be wrong.

Platform 14 and 15 are either side of the control boundary between Wimbledon ASC panels 1 and 2. It might suggest the failure may have taken out Panel 1.

 

[infobleep]

The main issue is that all four SWML tracks are blocked at Battersea / Vauxhall.

The way you'd contingency plan for stuff like this is assume a major blockage on either the Windsor and SW main lines at / near Waterloo, determine what services you could operate on either line without running all the way into Waterloo. For less severe incidents you'd then scale the service up from that baseline.

Companies contingency plan for severe but plausible scenarios all the time. Especially for an essential public service I don't think it's too much to expect.

I didn't know it was Battersea / Vauxhall because there wasn't a page for those wanting more precise informarion. All I knew was London Wateeloo.

One can debate whether such information should be provided to this level of detail. I think yes but that us just my opinion.

 

[30907]

I accept a plan isn't available at a drop of a hat but today Exter trains were terminating at Wimbledon, so could the trains from Weymouth have got as far as Bournemouth, along the same lines as the Exetwr trains terminating at Wimbledon?

It seems they did, during the morning peak at least, though not a full service.

 

[infobleep]

It seems they did, during the morning peak at least, though not a full service.

But there was no shuttle between Weymouth and Bournemouth and I was expecting them to simply be able to terminate existing timetabled trains in Bournemouth.

Out of interest, given SWR was advising against travel, were Cross Country trains during similar, given their trains would be very busy due to fewer SWR trains running?

 

[TEW]

I accept a plan isn't available at a drop of a hat but today Exter trains were terminating at Wimbledon, so could the trains from Weymouth have got as far as Bournemouth, along the same lines as the Exetwr trains terminating at Wimbledon?

I assumed but possibly incorrectly that the terminating at Wimbledon wasn't a new plan but just trains terminating early from the existing plan.

Also when the line at Havant is blocked trains are sometimes sent down via Eastleigh. So I thought, no doubt incorrectly, just running a train to Bournemouth would be possible and it wouldn't need a new plan to be written.

Terminating the Exeter/ Salisbury trains at Wimbledon is certainly not a plan I've seen implemented before. They were shunting via the reception road for Wimbledon Park Depot

 

[WesternBiker]

Terminating the Exeter/ Salisbury trains at Wimbledon is certainly not a plan I've seen implemented before. They were shunting via the reception road for Wimbledon Park Depot

Well, there's a logic to it as passengers can make their way into central London via the District Line.

 

[pompeyfan]

the majority of Exeter services are in and out crew and stock at Waterloo, which makes things significantly easier when terminating at unusual places. Crews on services up from Weymouth can go out on pretty much any service group. This is all from memory

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Well, there's a logic to it as passengers can make their way into central London via the District Line.

Total logic you would get as far as you can with all services if you were the passenger facing organisation SWR purports to be

 

[Horizon22]

Controllers don't rewrite timetables. They regulate services when things go wrong, like now!

They give it a crack, but it's nowhere near perfection. They're controllers not planners!

While you are absolutely right, I think that platforms 1 to 14 have been oos like this previously, perhaps a set of circuits that take out that tranche in the event of a certain failure mode, so I would imagine it not to be impossible to have an emergency timetable in place for that scenario. I could be wrong.

There's probably a contingency of some description although these often put into place things only "#tph allowed to A, trains to Y start from Z, a shuttle runs between C-D only hourly." Big closures of the terminus are not impossible to write a contingency for and there probably is one, its just very hard to put into practice even if on paper because crew and stock has to be balanced and each situation is slightly different and can lead to congestion on top of the amendments.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Apr 2023 ==

Total logic you would get as far as you can with all services if you were the passenger facing organisation SWR purports to be

That's not how it works. Contingency plans are built with NR and TOC (or TOCs) and will try not to overload one specific area and might run reliable services A-B, C-B and C-D instead of A-D.

You might also need to "step up" trains otherwise they are booked to sit short of the planned terminus for over an hour which causes congestion, but then doing that step up causes its own crew risks. It really is a tricky job at the best of times, let alone you've lost half your sole, major London terminal.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That's not how it works. Contingency plans are built with NR and TOC (or TOCs) and will try not to overload one specific area and might run reliable services A-B, C-B and C-D instead of A-D.

The problem was C.Jcn to Waterloo yet SWR abandoned huge chunks of their operating area over a 100 miles away. Historically the railways rose to these sort of challenges now they just give up although im pretty sure the majority of staff would have risen to the challenge but the leadership just isn't there anymore.

 

[pompeyfan]

The problem was C.Jcn to Waterloo yet SWR abandoned huge chunks of their operating area over a 100 miles away. Historically the railways rose to these sort of challenges now they just give up although im pretty sure the majority of staff would have risen to the challenge but the leadership just isn't there anymore.

*Deleted

 

[Horizon22]

The problem was C.Jcn to Waterloo yet SWR abandoned huge chunks of their operating area over a 100 miles away. Historically the railways rose to these sort of challenges now they just give up although im pretty sure the majority of staff would have risen to the challenge but the leadership just isn't there anymore.

There would absoutely be a reason why Clapham Junction wasn't served as intensively as it was. Nobody "gave up"; there are agreed contingency plans to keep the few services that are running, reliably soon and in agreement with Network Rail. You are having a pop at SWR without almost any knowledge of the facts or practicalities of trying to run such an operation at short-notice.

Trying to nobly "rise to the challenge" often might seem good in the short-term but in the medium and longer term throughout the day can cause even worse disruption and serious crew displacement and stock misformed. I would suggest you are looking at this in rose-tinted glasses and in the past things didn't go well at all either.

 

[BenS123]

It's also worth emphasising here as I did travel on SWR today, the staff on the ground were extraordinary and went above and beyond to turn what would be a stressful experience into a far better one.

It's extraordinarily difficult to run a service without over half of what is effectively your hub. It's important to remember that SWR is a london-centric operator, and their entire operation revolves around London Waterloo. When the biggest part of their operation is mostly unusable, you are going to have problems.

Even as an affected passenger who was delayed by hours in total today, SWR's response has been entirely reasonable, as controllers are not planners as mentioned upthread. Also, from what I heard while travelling, most other affected passengers also saw the cancellations as "fair enough".

It's also important to say that SWR didn't "give up", they reinstated many of their services throughout the day, and their social media team have also been excellent replying to all customer questions within minutes.

 

[infobleep]

Terminating the Exeter/ Salisbury trains at Wimbledon is certainly not a plan I've seen implemented before. They were shunting via the reception road for Wimbledon Park Depot

How interesting.

Well, there's a logic to it as passengers can make their way into central London via the District Line.

the majority of Exeter services are in and out crew and stock at Waterloo, which makes things significantly easier when terminating at unusual places. Crews on services up from Weymouth can go out on pretty much any service group. This is all from memory

I would think there is logic in a shuttle running between Weymouth and Bournemouth as at least passengers can get between local stations even if they can't get any further.

I obviously don't know how easy it would be to terminate trains at Bournemouth and run them back to Weymouth when the original intention wasn't for them to do that.

Worth noting Guuldfodd to Farnham ran today as did the Brockenhurst to Lymington branch and the latter surely feeds into the main line, so clearly they were running services where they were self-contained in the standard timetable.

Worth noting that all the last trains are running tonight so well done for achieving that. Some before the last ones have had to be cancelled, which is understandable

We are aiming to run the last services from London Waterloo tonight, however trains will be using different platforms than usual - Please check before you board.

National Rail Enquiries - Official source for UK train times and timetables

m.nationalrail.co.uk

I managed to avoid the train issues by getting a bus today but I had always planned to use the bus due to the government scheme for £2 bus fares being such good value.

Some other people travelling from Lewisham to Kingston today took 2 hours to get in. I think they ended up in an Uber. It was a quarterly face-to-face wider team meeting, so more important for people to be there in person than via a computer screen.

 

[TEW]

the majority of Exeter services are in and out crew and stock at Waterloo, which makes things significantly easier when terminating at unusual places. Crews on services up from Weymouth can go out on pretty much any service group. This is all from memory

Anything terminating at Wimbledon and shunting via the depot reception road rather than turning back in the platform is limited to 8x20m length too, which rules out the majority of Weymouth services.

 

[infobleep]

Anything terminating at Wimbledon and shunting via the depot reception road rather than turning back in the platform is limited to 8x20m length too, which rules out the majority of Weymouth services.

But doesn't preclude them being terminated elsewhere when such length limits don't apply. I appreciate there may be other reasons why they don't do this part from length.