Chiltern May 2023 timetable change - for the worse or better?

[172007]

To be honest, the Chiltern timetable has never been great for intermediate journeys - a combination of infrastructure constraints of a two track railway and a history of - in my time there, over twenty years ago - spending too much time trying to compete with other TOCs and not considering these intermediate flows. That said the service from major cities to London did improve considerably in the early days of the TOC.

Looking at the timetable:

Why are there two hour gaps in the West Ruislip service midday - the cost of an additional stop must be miniscule. It would not have been allowable under the Passenger Service Requirement in my day, but of course, the DfT can issue derrogations.

Hourly gaps in to Met Line service in the middle of the day are grim and very bad news for shift workers. Again how much will this save?

I also wonder why there are two empty movements from Stourbridge Jn depot to Moor St at 06:40 (arr 07:13) and 07:13 (arr 07:43). What are the savings in running ECS?

I don't dispute that there may need to be peak reductions as traffic has declined - it may well be possible to reduce the number of units leased. Withdrawing the off-peak MYB - Gerrards X service and putting additional stops in other services is fairly painless. However removing off-peak stops leaving long gaps between services is certainly not the way to go. With some exceptions such as Bicester Town tourist traffic off peak patronage has recovered and needs to be encouraged.

The cost of an ECS is interesting. WMT will have a new service in May, Leamington to Stratford OA no intermediate stops once a day. This service arrives into Stratford OA an hour and ten mins before the currently scheduled arrival. It appears to be a case if let's make the ECS earn its keep.

 

[Class 170101]

The cost of an ECS is interesting. WMT will have a new service in May, Leamington to Stratford OA no intermediate stops once a day. This service arrives into Stratford OA an hour and ten mins before the currently scheduled arrival. It appears to be a case if let's make the ECS earn its keep.

Its also covering a withdrawn Chiltern service by the looks of it (well sort of covering it).

 

[barbette165]

The cost of an ECS is interesting. WMT will have a new service in May, Leamington to Stratford OA no intermediate stops once a day. This service arrives into Stratford OA an hour and ten mins before the currently scheduled arrival. It appears to be a case if let's make the ECS earn its keep.

I think it will struggle to earn its keep, any revenue gained will likely not cover the additional operational costs. RTT has it departing from platform 4 at Leamington at 0555. Platform 4 has an 0540 to Nuneaton, so the unit will need to be positioned from the sidings into Platform 4 after the departure of the Nuneaton service, rather than just head off to Stratford. And assuming the train will be the new target length of 5 carriages for the Snow Hill lines, can it even fit into platform 4?

 

[172007]

I think it will struggle to earn its keep, any revenue gained will likely not cover the additional operational costs. RTT has it departing from platform 4 at Leamington at 0555. Platform 4 has an 0540 to Nuneaton, so the unit will need to be positioned from the sidings into Platform 4 after the departure of the Nuneaton service, rather than just head off to Stratford. And assuming the train will be the new target length of 5 carriages for the Snow Hill lines, can it even fit into platform 4?

4 Cars In platform 4, full lengh if platform 4 plus the siding is 8 and selective door opening is currently used for departures out of platform 4 with 5 car trains.

 

[Vanmanyo]

4 Cars In platform 4, full lengh if platform 4 plus the siding is 8 and selective door opening is currently used for departures out of platform 4 with 5 car trains.

I don't think I've ever seen a train longer than 3 carriages use platform 4 (a 172). If Chiltern Mainline services ever need to terminate services (Or xc for that matter) at Leamington they just use platform 3 (which wmr sometimes use for some reason, it happened to me once, maybe a points failure or something).

 

[AJDesiro]

I don't think I've ever seen a train longer than 3 carriages use platform 4 (a 172). If Chiltern Mainline services ever need to terminate services (Or xc for that matter) at Leamington they just use platform 3 (which wmr sometimes use for some reason, it happened to me once, maybe a points failure or something).

There are some WMR services which are scheduled to use platform 3, as opposed to 4. Namely some evening services from Nuneaton, which then form an ECS to go to the sidings by platform 1.

 

[class68fan]

The service via Little Kimble becomes an erratic shuttle just to Princes Risborough running every 60-90 minutes with around half a dozen through trains mostly at peak times.

Going that way doesn't really provide a useful service as it takes about half an hour longer.

Via Amersham it looks like 2tph to me, you aren't putting in Parkway are you? That's always only been hourly. They're close together because one is fast and one slow, but I don't think that is new?

It depend on connect time if not through train via Princess Risbourough . On though train only 10 minute longer than the train on the Ammersham line.

 

[Vanmanyo]

Full May 23 Chiltern timetable details:

National Rail Enquiries - Chiltern Railways Timetable - Weekday Changes May 2023

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seems to make sense. Surprised they've kept the Stourbridge services at all to be honest, just sticking to a solid half hourly clockface service from Moor St seems to make most sense to me. Though those gaps are annoying as they damage the utility of the clockface service.

 

[Vanmanyo]

Seems to make sense. Surprised they've kept the Stourbridge services at all to be honest, just sticking to a solid half hourly clockface service from Moor St seems to make most sense to me. Though those gaps are annoying as they damage the utility of the clockface service.

Ye, at least they are still services just every 2 hours to Leamington. I think because they are also at more awkward times I don't think it will affect them that much

 

[172007]

Seems to make sense. Surprised they've kept the Stourbridge services at all to be honest, just sticking to a solid half hourly clockface service from Moor St seems to make most sense to me. Though those gaps are annoying as they damage the utility of the clockface service.

Chiltern have had refurb / new fuel tanks installed at Stourbridge!

 

[Vanmanyo]

Chiltern have had refurb / new fuel tanks installed at Stourbridge!

Are 68s stored at Stourbridge or just 168s? Or both

 

[172007]

Are 68s stored at Stourbridge or just 168s? Or both

Both.

 

[driverd]

I doubt people are suddenly going to start driving all the way from Kidderminster to London because they’ve lost a direct service. At most perhaps they’ll drive to a station on the other side of the Chiltern lines but as others have pointed out the connection from the local service is perfectly fine.

That's unfortunately not the case. The whole ethos behind various services (in particular, open access), is that by providing new connections, you'll generate a new market that otherwise wouldn't exist. The opposite is true if you take the service away.

Why? Because people don't want to go out of their way to take the train.

The competitive advantage of rail is always in part convenience. If you make journeys more inconvenient, you push people away. The vast majority find connections challenging and stressful (especially given the current ticketing climate, which is essentially fine first, ask questions later). Simply, remove the train and you'll loose your market.

Prime example? Look no further than transpennine express. Their recovery has been woeful. Sure, their performance has been far from exemplary, but the sub-50% pre-covid pax figures is miles below national (and regional) average and represents a far higher cut in patronage than the timetable reductions.

Welcome to a nationalised rail network - budget first, investment second.

 

[Dstock7080]

The MET timetable released for May doesn’t mention the Chiltern M-F off-peak reduction in the summary, it even lists erroneously “Aylesbury-Marylebone M-F off-peak frequency every 30min”.
The only reference to Chiltern is:

minor changes to improve headways with Chiltern Railways trains.

 

[xerosis]

I'm one of seemingly a handful who use Chiltern to commute between London stations, I always hate timetable day as I have to work out how badly my commute is going to change as the trains are mainly hourly. This one is no different, with my morning train being moved 22 minutes earlier and the removal of two trains between 4 and 6pm.

 

[centraluser]

I'll be interested to see the stock allocations for Oxford. When the Marylebone - Oxford service was first introduced five years or so ago, it was pretty much solidly 168 on almost every service, with possibly one 172/165 a day. Turbos were very rare.

Nowadays, since the past year or two, 165s seem to work the vast majority of the route.

From what I’ve seen, looks to be a complete mix of 165 & 168 trains booked for the weekday Oxford services. Seem to alternate for much of the off-peak daytime, but other than that fairly unpredictable.

In the morning the 0634 from OXF remains 8/168 and the 0745 is booked as 5/168.

 

[sammyg901]

I'm quite surprised at some of the train lengths showing on RTT for evening peak out of MYB - the 1745 to Oxford only being 3 carriages sounds very cosy . 1715 - 1745 - 1815 - 1845 are 165 operated. Quite the downgrade for stations like Bicester Village from pre-COVID

 

[BanburyBlue]

From my perspective, commuting from Banbury to Birmingham Snow Hill, it's good that there is an addition morning northbound train, the 07.41 that gets to Snow Hill at 08.39. However that is tempered by the fact that a lot more services now terminate at Moor Street, so in the evening it's a yomp to Moor Street.

 

[centraluser]

I'm quite surprised at some of the train lengths showing on RTT for evening peak out of MYB - the 1745 to Oxford only being 3 carriages sounds very cosy . 1715 - 1745 - 1815 - 1845 are 165 operated. Quite the downgrade for stations like Bicester Village from pre-COVID

The 1745 was formed of 5-165 as booked. RTT shows it did not leave from its booked platform, so likely a swap and late allocation into systems. A revised short term train plan starts tomorrow ref Nuneham capacity, so no idea what new formations will be. All peak Oxford services were as booked tonight, though the 1615 had more seats than planned due to being 4-165 instead of 2/165 + 2/168.

In the base plan (not the temporary one that starts tomorrow) the 1815 is booked to be 5 carriages on Mondays, 6 Tu, We & Th and 4 in a Friday. All others are same number of carriages each weekday.

Indeed, very few Clubman (168) carriages to Oxford in the evening peak - 2 carriages of the 4 on the 1615 and all 6 on the 1645. Of course this also has the potential to slow things down as max 75mph, but with first stops Seer Green or High Wycombe all 6 trains get a fair bash before they have to slow down. 5 arrived at High Wycombe on time tonight and 1 was a minute late, so performance for Day 1 is a good omen.

 

[Starmill]

Withdrawing nearly every through train between Aylesbury and High Wycombe is quite frustrating. They're both large towns not far away from one another, and nobody is realistically going to use the train for that journey now given the attitude towards connections in this country.

 

[sammyg901]

Thanks for the info! I saw it did run as a 5 car in the end. Journeycheck wasn't showing it 3 vs 5 earlier in the day.

My friend is pleased that a silver set is making a temporary run as a 1737 High Wycombe and Princes Risborough only. She'll miss that when she's downgraded to a 165 !

 

[Birmingham]

Lots of complains about slower (more stops) trains in the new timetable to Chiltern on Twitter yesterday.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Withdrawing nearly every through train between Aylesbury and High Wycombe is quite frustrating. They're both large towns not far away from one another, and nobody is realistically going to use the train for that journey now given the attitude towards connections in this country.

Reduces the likelihood of stuffing up performance on the main line when there are issues between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury though.

Agree it's inconvenient and likely to put some people off using the train, however, due to needing to change at Princes Risborough both ways.

 

[sammyg901]

Withdrawing nearly every through train between Aylesbury and High Wycombe is quite frustrating. They're both large towns not far away from one another, and nobody is realistically going to use the train for that journey now given the attitude towards connections in this country.

I did the commute for a few years during the bubble car days and it wasn't a huge number of people then and based on my admittedly rare excursions via this route at peak times then it seems the same or less now. Tickets are relatively cheap so it's not a flow that Chiltern / DfT are particularly worried about I imagine. The bus service has improved on this route over the years too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

Lots of complains about slower (more stops) trains in the new timetable to Chiltern on Twitter yesterday.

Quite a few appear to relate to the 1Y06 0605 from Oxford which is only 4 cars. This is followed by a 6 car from Bicester North 10 minutes later which may be a better option for Beaconsfield / Gerrards Cross commuters at least until Oxford-Paddington reopens

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

1715 - 1745 - 1815 - 1845 are 165 operated. Quite the downgrade for stations like Bicester Village from pre-COVID

Yes, this is what I've said quite a few times recently in other threads across the forum, the Oxford service has gone from an almost-exclusively 168 run operation (with 165/172 appearing very rarely) several years ago to a predominantly 165 run operation. I suppose Oxford and Bicester do have the GWR and Birmingham services respectively as alternatives though, and the Oxford via Bicester service is more of the secondary route - certainly for Oxford anyway.

 

[Starmill]

Reduces the likelihood of stuffing up performance on the main line when there are issues between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury though.

Agree it's inconvenient and likely to put some people off using the train, however, due to needing to change at Princes Risborough both ways.

To be fair even if you don't mind changing trains the extension to journey times is quite substantial.

That's the problem in this country, either people don't trust the connection because they know it won't be held, or the connection times are so poor that they extend the journey times unrealistically. Changing trains wouldn't really be an issue for a journey such as this if people could trust it.

In unrelated news it's pretty poor that the 1739 and 1912 services from Stratford-upon-Avon to Warwick have been withdrawn, the former continued to Leamington Spa and the latter had a connection. They've been replaced with a service at 1833, which is well and good but it means there's now a gap of over three hours from 1833 to 2135! Not good at all if you were relying on the 1739 as you now have over fifty minutes to wait. There aren't any alternative options changing at Dorridge either. Really really poor.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

I did the commute for a few years during the bubble car days and it wasn't a huge number of people then and based on my admittedly rare excursions via this route at peak times then it seems the same or less now. Tickets are relatively cheap so it's not a flow that Chiltern / DfT are particularly worried about I imagine. The bus service has improved on this route over the years too.

I think the fact that both Red Eagle and Arriva run frequently direct services commercially shows that excluding the London and West Midlands markets this is one of Chiltern's strongest. However they simply don't have the units to run it any more and the London business comes first.

 

[sammyg901]

Long time ago now but in my experience the bus predominantly catered for passengers out of Aylesbury as far as Princes Risborough and then into High Wycombe from the villages outside it. There weren't too many people doing the whole route.

Most employment in Aylesbury and in High Wycombe is not in the town centre - it's all in Cressex business park etc. Nearly everyone just drives. Those on the train probably have no choice and so will continue to use it.

They're pretty good about holding the shuttle where they can for up to 10 mins and I even saw them hold a London bound train recently to avoid a long wait

 

[12LDA28C]

Reduces the likelihood of stuffing up performance on the main line when there are issues between Princes Risborough and Aylesbury though.

Especially as that's an almost weekly occurrence recently with the problems with the culvert south of Aylesbury station. At least it'll only be the Risborough shuttle that gets caped now when it rains, instead of through services to and from Marylebone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 May 2023 ==

Interesting in the new timetable that they have taken into account the reduction in peak-time passenger numbers on a Monday and Friday with in some instances the same train booked to be different lengths on Monday, Tuesday-Thursday and Friday with longer formations midweek.

 

[Basil Jet]

At least it'll only be the Risborough shuttle that gets caped now when it rains, instead of through services to and from Marylebone.

Caping trains in the rain sounds like a good idea!