Edinburgh & the Lothians bus network speculations & ideas

[stevenedin]

I have created this thread so that we can discuss ideas for new buses, bus routes etc so that they aren’t in the main threads under each operator as not everyone likes to see them.

There is a lot of discussion (mainly under both threads for McGill’s Scotland East and Lothian Group) and I feel that this thread could cover discussion for all operators in Edinburgh and Lothians.

 

[GusB]

I have created this thread so that we can discuss ideas for new buses, bus routes etc so that they aren’t in the main threads under each operator as not everyone likes to see them.

There is a lot of discussion (mainly under both threads for McGill’s Scotland East and Lothian Group) and I feel that this thread could cover discussion for all operators in Edinburgh and Lothians.

Let's hear your ideas, then!

 

[CN04NRJ]

Most of the area isn't commercially viable and I think WLC should put out to tender areas now left without services for a limited period to see if it's sustainable with a subsidy.

 

[stevenedin]

Let's hear your ideas, then!

At the moment I think that the main changes coming up will be the Edinburgh tenders (20, 63 & 68). I can’t see these being changed although if Lothian got these then I could see a few options:

1) They stay as they are.

2) They get added to an existing route
Possibly options for them could be:

22 (Lothian route) being extended from Gyle Centre to Ratho via the same route.

31 (Lothian route) no longer serving East Craigs or Maybury Road and heading straight along the A8 to Ratho. The 41 extended to East Craigs to cover for the loss of the 31 (although I can see this being an issue to people living there wanting to access Corstorphine.

41 (Lothian route) being extended from Cammo along Maybury Road, stopping off at the Gyle then off along the A8 to Ratho.

With all of the options above there would need to be either a new route or extension of an existing route to cover the rest of the route to Chesser. If the 22 didn’t get extended to Ratho to Ratho it could continue the route via the 20 route to Chesser.

Possibly the 21 could be extended to Chesser and all buses go this way instead of some to Clovenstone as they will end up at West Hailes nearby anyway.

The 68 is unique and probably can’t change although it would be nice to have it serve East Craigs as well.

I wouldn’t change the 63 it’s a good route as it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2023 ==

Most of the area isn't commercially viable and I think WLC should put out to tender areas now left without services for a limited period to see if it's sustainable with a subsidy.

I was coming to the West Lothian part. Didn’t want to make my last post too long.

I feel like there could be scope for a service which serves both Deans South, Eliburn Road & Ladywell West in Livingston and Blackridge. Possibly it will start at Blackridge and operate via Armadale and Bathgate and it could do a loop around Deans North and Deans South before heading along the current X24 route towards Eliburn Road then head straight across to Ladywell West, Ladywell East, St John’s Hospital and operate via Howden towards Livingston Centre to give people of Howden an extra service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2023 ==

I can’t see there being any changes in East Lothian or Midlothian as they seem to be both well served at the moment.

 

[roadierway77]

I wouldn’t change the 63 it’s a good route as it is.

As someone who uses the 63 fairly regularly it definitely needs some changes, mostly in the form of its timetable. The current timings are unachievable, especially at peak times - I'd give the route a new timetable with a lot more slack. There's plenty of slack at the Balerno end (28min layover time) so it wouldn't affect PVR in any way and would provide a far more reliable service. It's all too common for services to be running at least 15-20mins late by the time they reach a terminus; the worst I've ever had it is a 32min delay on a southbound service at Riccarton, not exactly useful for students trying to get to class on time.

Speaking of Balerno, I'd cut the 63 back to Riccarton. From my observations the service only tends to carry fresh air over this section.

If the 63 was to be cut even further, its strongest section in terms of passenger numbers definitely seems to be Queensferry to Gyle. While I'd rather this didn't happen, another cutback could see the route cut to run between Queensferry and Gyle, with peak extras to Sighthill and Riccarton.

The 63 and 20 could also potentially be combined into one route, running Queensferry to Chesser, which would use three vehicles. To provide service to Riccarton and Ratho, perhaps Lothian's 12 could be extended in the west and alternate between terminating at Ratho and Riccarton, providing an hourly service to both, also supplying new direct links from Ratho to the city centre and from Heriot Watt to Corstorphine. This would increase vehicles required by the 12 from 6 to 8.

 

[Fleetmaster]

The Scottish Government needs to put its money where it's mouth is and give Borders Council a direct grant to set up their own bus company.

This is allowed under the Transport Act...

Local authorities have power to run bus services​

Local authorities have power to run bus services | Transport Scotland

www.transport.gov.scot

Section 34 of the Act essentially gives local transport authorities power to run local bus services in any way they see fit within the wider context of their obligations, which they were previously prohibited from doing under the Transport Act 1985. This power sits alongside their existing ability to subsidise services.

And AFAIK this also allows the council to exclude private companies from competing unless they provide equivalent services (vehicles, timings), which they obviously aren't willing to do.

 

[JKP]

The Scottish Government needs to put its money where it's mouth is and give Borders Council a direct grant to set up their own bus company.

This is allowed under the Transport Act...

And AFAIK this also allows the council to exclude private companies from competing unless they provide equivalent services (vehicles, timings), which they obviously aren't willing to do.

Do you not mean West Lothian Council? I am not aware that Scottish Borders Council to give its correct title is considering operating full bus company status. SBC already run a number of routes under Section 22.

 

[alexf380]

My idea sees the current tender routes chopped and added onto the end of other routes.

Service 12: City Centre to Ratho, same as it was a decade ago. Maybe even only hourly to Ratho if a half hourly service isn't sustainable, with the other half hour turning at Gyle or Ingliston.

Service 22: City Centre to Queensferry via Kirkliston, top end of the current 63 route.

Service 42: Marine Garage to somewhere west... since I'm cutting the 12 back to the City again, I'll need to bring the 42 back for the Potterow/ Causewayside part of town. The question is where to terminate it. Would it be viable turning it at Hanover Street? Or does it need to go further out? One option is to send it along the old 300 route via Fountainbridge and Chesser to Gyle/Riccarton, potentially via Calder Gardens etc since I've taken the 20 away from them.

 

[Ding Ding]

I have to say, as someone who has driven a bus in West Lothian, McGill's, if they are cutting services for the reasons they give, driver shortages and lack of passengers out with peak periods, then they have a point. If you were to look at early morning and evening services, buses on the whole are running mainly empty. I appreciate people in Blackridge, Stoneyburn, Fauldhouse, Whitburn, need a service to get to and from work etc, but the numbers don't stack up commercially for any bus company unless they attract council subsidy's. Gone are the days when bus companies were able to provide a purely public service, they have to be commercially viable. I see many people suggesting routes here and there because they don't have a service and they need one, and would in fact use it if it were there, but the figures from the past don't add up, they don't get used in the numbers that people suggest, that's why they were cut in the first place. Bus usage has shrunk, and unfortunately services have too. If you took away free travel for under 22's and concessions, the situation would be even more dire, because this makes up a large chunk of revenues for bus companies.
I'm not being negative, although it may sound it, just realistic. Unless Govt or Councils miraculously find money to pay companies to run these services, then I think these cuts will happen as planned ,and have little chance of being re introduced.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I think this forum is just for me! Here’s a whole revision of the Lothian network if I could tweak a few things myself!

LOTHIAN

12 - Sunday service extended to Portobello during the day with evening journeys terminating at Bristo Place

14 - Extended from Greendykes to Millerhill via Newton Village Monday to Saturday

X15 - NEW Peak service running between Penicuik Town Centre and Waterloo Place via Mauricewood, Flotterstone, Hillend, Fairmilehead, Morningside and Tollcross!

22 - Extended from Waterloo Place to Lochend via Abbeyhill

30 - Route Change between Fort Kinnaird and Queen Margaret via the A1 to increase capacity on route, section between Niddrie and Newcraighill replaced by revised 106

34 - Route changed in Leith to run via Salamander Street and Baltic Street permanently as per the current diversion, Bus stops now added on Baltic Street.

45 - Hourly Saturday service introduced between Currie and Eastfield

200 - more night journeys introduced making the service 24/7

400 - more night journeys introduced and extended to fort Kinnaird making the service 24/7! the last journey from the Airport to Gilmerton is extended to Fort Kinnaird and 10:50 Fort Kinniard to Longstone service now runs out to the Airport!

N14 - Journeys to Royal Infirmary now run via Niddrie Mill, The Wisp and Upper Greendykes, the section between Little France Drive and Greendykes Road will now be served by the 24/7 400

N27 - NEW service running between Silverknowes and Fairmilehead 7 nights a week!

X44 - Service Withdrawn and replaced by ECB X13


EAST COAST BUSES

106 - peak journeys extended from Fort Kinnaird to Royal Infirmary via The Wisp and Milligan Drive, later journeys introduced between Haddington and Fort Kinnaird to replace the 30

113 - Serves all stops, for limited stop service see X13

124 - Withdrawn and replaced by X24

140/141 - Journeys extended from Musselburgh to Ocean Terminal via Portobello, Seafield, Baltic Street and The Shore on Monday to Saturday, Fare Zone in Midlothian revised to be County Zone B.

X13 - New limited stop service at peak times between Haymarket and Pencaitland via A1, Tranent, Elphinstone Reserch and Ormiston

X24 - New limited stop service replacing the 124, Route remains the same except within the city where buses return to Portobello but with limited stop pattern mirroring the X26

N113 - Buses extended from Ormiston to Pencaitland

N124 - Route rerouted to serve Portobello mirroring the X24


LOTHIAN COUNTRY
WEST LOTHIAN NETWORK
X18 - Same as before but with a few split journeys to Blackridge during the day
X27 - Reroute to Whitburn via Cousland, Seafield and Blackburn omitting Knightridge and Deans
X28 - service unchanged
275 - service reintroduced Gyle - Livingston via Newbridge, Kirkliston, Winchburgh, Broxburn, Pumpherston, Craigshill
N18 - New service Edinburgh - Armadale via Corstorphine, Newbridge, Broxburn, Bathgate
N28 - Return journey from Bathgate introduced on weekends

EDINBURGH NETWORK

20 - NEW service Ratho - Chesser connecting Lothian with Ratho
43 - Revised Timetable to coordinate with new service 63
63 - NEW service Balerno - Queensferry connecting Lothian with Kirkliston and providing easy connection with service 43 and 275 for Dalmeny and West Lothian

 

[Stan Drews]

I have to say, as someone who has driven a bus in West Lothian, McGill's, if they are cutting services for the reasons they give, driver shortages and lack of passengers out with peak periods, then they have a point. If you were to look at early morning and evening services, buses on the whole are running mainly empty. I appreciate people in Blackridge, Stoneyburn, Fauldhouse, Whitburn, need a service to get to and from work etc, but the numbers don't stack up commercially for any bus company unless they attract council subsidy's. Gone are the days when bus companies were able to provide a purely public service, they have to be commercially viable. I see many people suggesting routes here and there because they don't have a service and they need one, and would in fact use it if it were there, but the figures from the past don't add up, they don't get used in the numbers that people suggest, that's why they were cut in the first place. Bus usage has shrunk, and unfortunately services have too. If you took away free travel for under 22's and concessions, the situation would be even more dire, because this makes up a large chunk of revenues for bus companies.
I'm not being negative, although it may sound it, just realistic. Unless Govt or Councils miraculously find money to pay companies to run these services, then I think these cuts will happen as planned ,and have little chance of being re introduced.

You’ve hit the nail very firmly on the head!

Fantasy networks are all well and good, provided that there is fantasy funding to operate them. Unfortunately the procurement people within the local authorities rule the roost when it comes to what funding there actually is, and this often leads to the inefficient use of that money.
If the public transport officers within the councils were able to agree (within certain limits) directly with operators, the situations we are seeing across the country could be dealt with in a much more sensible way, that would benefit the travelling public.

 

[PaulMc7]

You’ve hit the nail very firmly on the head!

Fantasy networks are all well and good, provided that there is fantasy funding to operate them. Unfortunately the procurement people within the local authorities rule the roost when it comes to what funding there actually is, and this often leads to the inefficient use of that money.
If the public transport officers within the councils were able to agree (within certain limits) directly with operators, the situations we are seeing across the country could be dealt with in a much more sensible way, that would benefit the travelling public.

On top of this, the general public need to be educated on just how much it costs to operate buses. There has been a wall of "but the bus is busy" in relation to the cuts coming in May from Mcgills but the sad and brutal reality of the situation is that even a half full bus may not be breaking even or even close to it.

The only thing that will probably save West Lothian's bus services is a solid amount of funding but that likely doesn't exist unless the government whip it up from out of nowhere because it's certainly something West Lothian Council can't afford.

 

[frvic93]

I think this forum is just for me! Here’s a whole revision of the Lothian network if I could tweak a few things myself!

LOTHIAN

12 - Sunday service extended to Portobello during the day with evening journeys terminating at Bristo Place

14 - Extended from Greendykes to Millerhill via Newton Village Monday to Saturday

X15 - NEW Peak service running between Penicuik Town Centre and Waterloo Place via Mauricewood, Flotterstone, Hillend, Fairmilehead, Morningside and Tollcross!

22 - Extended from Waterloo Place to Lochend via Abbeyhill

30 - Route Change between Fort Kinnaird and Queen Margaret via the A1 to increase capacity on route, section between Niddrie and Newcraighill replaced by revised 106

34 - Route changed in Leith to run via Salamander Street and Baltic Street permanently as per the current diversion, Bus stops now added on Baltic Street.

45 - Hourly Saturday service introduced between Currie and Eastfield

200 - more night journeys introduced making the service 24/7

400 - more night journeys introduced and extended to fort Kinnaird making the service 24/7! the last journey from the Airport to Gilmerton is extended to Fort Kinnaird and 10:50 Fort Kinniard to Longstone service now runs out to the Airport!

N14 - Journeys to Royal Infirmary now run via Niddrie Mill, The Wisp and Upper Greendykes, the section between Little France Drive and Greendykes Road will now be served by the 24/7 400

N27 - NEW service running between Silverknowes and Fairmilehead 7 nights a week!

X44 - Service Withdrawn and replaced by ECB X13


EAST COAST BUSES

106 - peak journeys extended from Fort Kinnaird to Royal Infirmary via The Wisp and Milligan Drive, later journeys introduced between Haddington and Fort Kinnaird to replace the 30

113 - Serves all stops, for limited stop service see X13

124 - Withdrawn and replaced by X24

140/141 - Journeys extended from Musselburgh to Ocean Terminal via Portobello, Seafield, Baltic Street and The Shore on Monday to Saturday, Fare Zone in Midlothian revised to be County Zone B.

X13 - New limited stop service at peak times between Haymarket and Pencaitland via A1, Tranent, Elphinstone Reserch and Ormiston

X24 - New limited stop service replacing the 124, Route remains the same except within the city where buses return to Portobello but with limited stop pattern mirroring the X26

N113 - Buses extended from Ormiston to Pencaitland

N124 - Route rerouted to serve Portobello mirroring the X24


LOTHIAN COUNTRY
WEST LOTHIAN NETWORK
X18 - Same as before but with a few split journeys to Blackridge during the day
X27 - Reroute to Whitburn via Cousland, Seafield and Blackburn omitting Knightridge and Deans
X28 - service unchanged
275 - service reintroduced Gyle - Livingston via Newbridge, Kirkliston, Winchburgh, Broxburn, Pumpherston, Craigshill
N18 - New service Edinburgh - Armadale via Corstorphine, Newbridge, Broxburn, Bathgate
N28 - Return journey from Bathgate introduced on weekends

EDINBURGH NETWORK

20 - NEW service Ratho - Chesser connecting Lothian with Ratho
43 - Revised Timetable to coordinate with new service 63
63 - NEW service Balerno - Queensferry connecting Lothian with Kirkliston and providing easy connection with service 43 and 275 for Dalmeny and West Lothian

I had a similar idea about the 14 in another thread, and I like your idea for it. It would be nice if there was a way to add Shawfair station into the route somehow, but looking at it on a map, it's so awkward to access. Why did they build it like that? I suppose they could add a turning circle next to the down platform for buses, then continue the route on to Millerhill. (I take it the 33 wouldn't need to go there on every journey in that case - could it go through Danderhall instead and maybe terminate at Shawfair?)

 

[overthewater]

My only two specultions for west Lothian nework.

* Lothian country will bid for Winchburgh grant money and provide near 30 mins service from Winchburgh around the new route - Broxburn - fastlink - st johns H - Livingston
* Lothian country will bid for X40 Hospital link and then promote is as start to teh Southen orbit bus service and highlight connectiosn at key points.


Within Edinburgh we will SEE further cuts down Leith walk maybe on 16 or 25. Lothian might win back the 63 and 20 with the freed up resoucres.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Within Edinburgh we will SEE further cuts down Leith walk maybe on 16 or 25. Lothian might win back the 63 and 20 with the freed up resoucres.

I can’t any further cuts on Leith Walk services. The current levels are already deeply unpopular so further reductions could put routes at risk. The city to/from Leith must be Lothian’s biggest regular traffic market after all?

The N22 might be the only one I’d consider taking out. Other links may prove more useful.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I can’t any further cuts on Leith Walk services. The current levels are already deeply unpopular so further reductions could put routes at risk. The city to/from Leith must be Lothian’s biggest regular traffic market after all?

The N22 might be the only one I’d consider taking out. Other links may prove more useful.

I agree here, on many services the section from Princes Street to roughly Pilrig is the busiest (not always but often). I think the tram will be very popular, but there will still probably be enough demand for all the services that currently serve Leith Walk.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

I agree here, on many services the section from Princes Street to roughly Pilrig is the busiest (not always but often). I think the tram will be very popular, but there will still probably be enough demand for all the services that currently serve Leith Walk.

The thing is that people have to understand that some of the routes go a completely different way to the tram, (some do follow the tram lots of the way, I get that,) and most of the links that are provided with those buses are vital to a lot people.

 

[stevenedin]

I agree here, on many services the section from Princes Street to roughly Pilrig is the busiest (not always but often). I think the tram will be very popular, but there will still probably be enough demand for all the services that currently serve Leith Walk.

I have to agree that this section is very busy most of the time. The 11, 16 & 25 are particularly busy but the 7, 14 & 49 are still busy too.

 

[overthewater]

So who going to use the trams if the buses are all busy instead? I would bet further cuts will happen once the trams are full operational.

 

[PaulMc7]

I'm rarely in Edinburgh and I've also never used the tram so I can't really comment but do people from Edinburgh see the tram as a good or bad thing when it comes to their effects on the buses?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

So who going to use the trams if the buses are all busy instead? I would bet further cuts will happen once the trams are full operational.

The tram is an addition to the area and takes the place of part of the 16 and part of the 22. When you factor that in the number of public transport options per hour before 2019 and when the tram extension opens will be broadly the same. The tram also stops less than the buses do, something that will mean buses are still a favourable option. Also, the tram doesn’t go where everyone wants to go either.

I would bet no further reductions will happen due to the very reasons I’ve highlighted above.

 

[stevenedin]

I'm rarely in Edinburgh and I've also never used the tram so I can't really comment but do people from Edinburgh see the tram as a good or bad thing when it comes to their effects on the buses?

I find it to be a good alternative but I am worried about it impacting the bus services. You only have to look at the 22 a perfectly good flagship route that once operated every 4 minutes now reduced to 30 mins roughly and cut to just the city centre to Gyle Centre.

I do feel like the 10 could be changed to operate via Broughton Street, Rodney Street and Broughton road in both directions or possibly the 11 and then the 14 changed to go down Pilrig Street and Bonnington Road.

 

[DunsBus]

On top of this, the general public need to be educated on just how much it costs to operate buses. There has been a wall of "but the bus is busy" in relation to the cuts coming in May from Mcgills but the sad and brutal reality of the situation is that even a half full bus may not be breaking even or even close to it.

The only thing that will probably save West Lothian's bus services is a solid amount of funding but that likely doesn't exist unless the government whip it up from out of nowhere because it's certainly something West Lothian Council can't afford.

Exactly this. In the Borders barely a week goes by without passengers asking when the later buses on the X95 are going to be reinstated - journeys which last ran three years ago, pre-lockdown. The fact is that they won't be reinstated, not without subsidy and Scottish Borders Council isn't in a position to provide it. The current service levels are as good as it will get and Borders Buses certainly won't run later journeys at its own expense to silence a few moaners.

 

[stevenedin]

Exactly this. In the Borders barely a week goes by without passengers asking when the later buses on the X95 are going to be reinstated - journeys which last ran three years ago, pre-lockdown. The fact is that they won't be reinstated, not without subsidy and Scottish Borders Council isn't in a position to provide it. The current service levels are as good as it will get and Borders Buses certainly won't run later journeys at its own expense to silence a few moaners.

I also can’t see the 52 or X70 coming back either, which is a shame.

 

[DunsBus]

I also can’t see the 52 or X70 coming back either, which is a shame.

The 51 now only runs as far as St Boswells. The section south of there to Jedburgh was dropped, along with the 52, when services restarted after the first lockdown.

It may not be much longer for this world in any case, as Midlothian Council has recently announced its intention to withdraw all funding for bus services. Scottish Borders and Midlothian both fund the 51 (the latter's contribution ensuring that Ford, Edgehead and Whitehill have a bus service) and I can't see Scottish Borders being willing to fund the section of route north of Soutra Hill if Midlothian pull out.

 

[stevenedin]

The 51 now only runs as far as St Boswells. The section south of there to Jedburgh was dropped, along with the 52, when services restarted after the first lockdown.

It may not be much longer for this world in any case, as Midlothian Council has recently announced its intention to withdraw all funding for bus services. Scottish Borders and Midlothian both fund the 51 (the latter's contribution ensuring that Ford, Edgehead and Whitehill have a bus service) and I can't see Scottish Borders being willing to fund the section of route north of Soutra Hill if Midlothian pull out.

I don’t know what these Councils expect people to do. Hopefully the government steps in with more funding for areas being cut off.

 

[DunsBus]

I don’t know what these Councils expect people to do. Hopefully the government steps in with more funding for areas being cut off.

Councils can only use the money that they've been allocated from Holyrood. It's up to each council to decide how to spend that money. They also have a duty to provide value for money for taxpayers so it's not surprising that bus service subsidies are taking a hit - spending vast sums to prop up poorly-used services is not value for money, especially when it can be put to better use elsewhere.

It also doesn't help that we have a government which promotes active travel yet has just cut the funding which kept buses going during Covid.

 

[CN04NRJ]

It also doesn't help that we have a government which promotes active travel yet has just cut the funding which kept buses going during Covid.

Exactly, the funding has been extended in Wales until July and I believe also there's still funding in England?

 

[PaulMc7]

Exactly, the funding has been extended in Wales until July and I believe also there's still funding in England?

From a quick Google search, it seems that it got extended to 30th June in England. Our government were warned of what would happen but they didn't listen and now the public just blame the operators.

 

[stevenedin]

It doesn’t surprise me with the Scottish Government to be honest.

It would be good if some sort of government funding was provided to operators depending on the number of routes that they operate which require extra funding (there could be an annual review of this) and possibly scrap the tendering of services funding wise and just have the Councils manage the distribution of which services need to be provided.

There could be some sort of process at the start of every financial year where operators state how many tendered services they want to take on and the council distributes this out in a fair way. The services required could be advertised in advance and the operators put in their amount of how much it will cost them to operate the route then if they are chosen to operate it, the money could come from the government instead of the Council.

Back to the speculations though, I think a lot of the above suggestions are actually quite good. I like the idea of the 22 going to South Queensferry. I do feel like it could be a decent replacement, especially with the 22 now on a reduced frequency it could actually work. The only thing that I could see a problem is the loss of a bus from the Gyle and the route up to South Queensferry to Herriot-Watt University. Potentially the 45 could be extended to Gyle Centre to accommodate this and people could use this as an interchange point, although this would make the route very long.