Set-down/Pick-up only: Consequences of breaking the rules?

[soasccs]

I semi-regularly take the 1743 EUS-LIV service, which calls at MK to pick up only. On most services I witness a brave bunch who alight at MK regardless. I'm not sure why but this really annoys me.

My question is, what are the potential consequences of this, other than perhaps some peeved off platform staff?

If your ticket is EUS-MKC, I presume any human ticket checks on the ramps at Euston would prevent you from boarding (although some seem to still get through somehow). I assume the platforms with ticket barriers must let them through.

Would platform staff or the TM on arrival at MK have any power to stop people, and challenge them? Would a potential penalty fare be able to be issued, and if so what fare would that be?

 

[Watershed]

The only place in the NRCoT where pick up or set down restrictions are addressed is in the definition of "Call". However, despite what the name might suggest, this definition is only used in section 14, which deals with split ticketing. Section 14 essentially prohibits you from undertaking splits at pick up or set down only stations, unless one or both of the tickets are seasons, rangers/rovers, zonal etc.

There is nowhere else that the term Call is used, and so there is no real sanction that can be applied if you do manage to board a train at a set down only station, or vice versa.

You wouldn't have any recourse if you were prevented from boarding a train in such circumstances, but equally the railway can't do anything if you do manage to board.

 

[Benjwri]

The only place in the NRCoT where pick up or set down restrictions are addressed is in the definition of "Call". However, despite what the name might suggest, this definition is only used in section 14, which deals with split ticketing. Section 14 essentially prohibits you from undertaking splits at pick up or set down only stations, unless one or both of the tickets are seasons, rangers/rovers, zonal etc.

There is nowhere else that the term Call is used, and so there is no real sanction that can be applied if you do manage to board a train at a set down only station, or vice versa.

You wouldn't have any recourse if you were prevented from boarding a train in such circumstances, but equally the railway can't do anything if you do manage to board.

Don’t believe this is true. If you do manage to board and there is a ticket check, you’re technically travelling without a valid ticket. In theory I assume you might be liable to a penalty fare or even a report for prosecution.

 

[Watershed]

Don’t believe this is true. If you do manage to board and there is a ticket check, you’re technically travelling without a valid ticket. In theory I assume you might be liable to a penalty fare or even a report for prosecution.

How would your ticket be invalid though? There is nothing in the NRCoT which the TOC could point to as making your ticket invalid. As previously mentioned, the concept of pick up and set down only stations is only mentioned in relation to splitting.

I certainly wouldn't go out recommending that people do it, but equally a TOC would struggle to justify imposing any penalty on someone who travelled between the stations that their ticket was valid on.

 

[Benjwri]

How would your ticket be invalid though? There is nothing in the NRCoT which the TOC could point to as making your ticket invalid. As previously mentioned, the concept of pick up and set down only stations is only mentioned in relation to splitting.

I certainly wouldn't go out recommending that people do it, but equally a TOC would struggle to justify imposing any penalty on someone who travelled between the stations that their ticket was valid on.

It would be an interesting case if it did happen. My question would be whether they actually do have a ticket for travel on a specific train, if the stop is pick up only, since technically they aren't allowed to get off at that stop.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

When Reading had some pick up only stops, it was quite amusing on the rare occasion, normally during some kind of disruption, but occasionally where there was a relief train at Reading, to see extremely upset commuters heading first stop Taunton when the Pick Up only stop had been pulled for whatever reason.

Of course, no announcement would be made at Paddington or on board - as it wasn't supposed to stop there anyway!

Anybody in a similar situation travelling to Milton Keynes could find themselves having to purchase a hefty fare back from Crewe or wherever they end up!

I'm surprised they're making it through at Euston though. Must be using automatic gates.

 

[AlterEgo]

This has been discussed before, at length, and the conclusion is that there is no penalty or remedy set out in the NRCOT, and never has been. Any attempt to charge any extra would be abortive.

 

[mangyiscute]

When Reading had some pick up only stops, it was quite amusing on the rare occasion, normally during some kind of disruption, but occasionally where there was a relief train at Reading, to see extremely upset commuters heading first stop Taunton when the Pick Up only stop had been pulled for whatever reason.

Of course, no announcement would be made at Paddington or on board - as it wasn't supposed to stop there anyway!

Anybody in a similar situation travelling to Milton Keynes could find themselves having to purchase a hefty fare back from Crewe or wherever they end up!

I'm surprised they're making it through at Euston though. Must be using automatic gates.

I would be surprised if there wasn't a "this train doesn't stop at Reading" announcement since almost all of the trains do stop there - when I did a first stop Oxford train we had one of these announcements. Then again, I guess the commuters may think that this is just them trying to stop Reading people from boarding

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

This has been discussed before, at length, and the conclusion is that there is no penalty or remedy set out in the NRCOT, and never has been. Any attempt to charge any extra would be abortive.

Although there have been several threads in Disputes & Prosecutions of people who have been charged for example a Crewe to Euston ticket when boarding a set down only at Watford Junction, and I don't think I've ever seen someone suggest to them that they complain since you can't actually enforce this in the rules.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would be surprised if there wasn't a "this train doesn't stop at Reading" announcement since almost all of the trains do stop there - when I did a first stop Oxford train we had one of these announcements. Then again, I guess the commuters may think that this is just them trying to stop Reading people from boarding

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==


Although there have been several threads in Disputes & Prosecutions of people who have been charged for example a Crewe to Euston ticket when boarding a set down only at Watford Junction, and I don't think I've ever seen someone suggest to them that they complain since you can't actually enforce this in the rules.

This is a particularly salient post by @Watershed which eventually changed my mind on this

Avanti West Coast gave me a £142.10 fine.

Dear sirs. I am wondering if anyone can help with this matter. About two weeks ago or so towards the beginning of the month i travelled from London Euston to Watford Junction in the morning and then went back again in the evening. I had purchased a Anytime Return ticket for £19.10 total. My...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Watershed]

This is a particularly salient post by @Watershed which eventually changed my mind on this https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/avanti-west-coast-gave-me-a-£142-10-fine.226349/#post-5460398

Thanks for linking to that, I had honestly forgotten I'd even written that! It's one of those slightly bizarre areas where there's no recourse in either direction for travelling in "breach" of the restrictions, or being denied travel.

Although there have been several threads in Disputes & Prosecutions of people who have been charged for example a Crewe to Euston ticket when boarding a set down only at Watford Junction, and I don't think I've ever seen someone suggest to them that they complain since you can't actually enforce this in the rules.

Again, I don't see that there is any basis for charging such a fare in that direction. NRCoT 9.2.1 merely states that you may be charged:

the full undiscounted “anytime” single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on.

Clearly, there is a bit missing there which should say "from the station you boarded" - that has to be implied in as part of the process of interpretation the contract. Any other interpretation would represent an unusually onerous term, which would have to be specifically spelled out.

In the northbound direction (boarding a train from Euston without a ticket and intending to alight at Watford Junction), I could see a slightly stronger argument for charging the fare to the next "open" stop.

 

[soasccs]

Thanks all for the responses.

 

[yorkie]

If a check is made before boarding, people could be directed to alternative trains, but there isn't much anyone can do otherwise.

Some staff may attempt to excess tickets to the first advertised call but they would be on very shaky ground legally.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

This is a particularly salient post by @Watershed which eventually changed my mind on this

Post #106 in that thread?

 

[AlterEgo]

Post #106 in that thread?

29. A moderator edited the link to display the thread preview but it broke the post link.

 

[trivran]

Although there have been several threads in Disputes & Prosecutions of people who have been charged for example a Crewe to Euston ticket when boarding a set down only at Watford Junction, and I don't think I've ever seen someone suggest to them that they complain since you can't actually enforce this in the rules.

An old favourite - if the train does not pick up passengers at this station then I have not boarded it here..

 

[sheff1]

When Reading had some pick up only stops, it was quite amusing on the rare occasion, normally during some kind of disruption, but occasionally where there was a relief train at Reading, to see extremely upset commuters heading first stop Taunton when the Pick Up only stop had been pulled for whatever reason.

In the days of slam door stock I once witnessed a fully suited and booted punter open the door at Reading and jump from a West Country bound train as it passed non stop through the platform. The platform staff shouted at him but he walked off seemingly without a care in the world and, amazingly, unharmed.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The only place in the NRCoT where pick up or set down restrictions are addressed is in the definition of "Call". However, despite what the name might suggest, this definition is only used in section 14, which deals with split ticketing. Section 14 essentially prohibits you from undertaking splits at pick up or set down only stations, unless one or both of the tickets are seasons, rangers/rovers, zonal etc.

There is nowhere else that the term Call is used, and so there is no real sanction that can be applied if you do manage to board a train at a set down only station, or vice versa.

You wouldn't have any recourse if you were prevented from boarding a train in such circumstances, but equally the railway can't do anything if you do manage to board.

I'm about to be right out of my depth in that I haven't got an answer to my own question, but are the NRCoT the only conditions that apply to railway travel?

Obviously there's also statute law, but it seems to me that it's reasonable that you can only travel on advertised services - that is, services that the railway somehow say can be used for the journey you want to make. I don't see that the railway are obliged to offer carriage to anyone just because a train is going between two given points: otherwise (back when there was such a thing) there would have been nothing in the rules to stop me hopping on to the Plymouth mail train at Paddington even though it didn't carry passengers - it was a train, at Paddington, and going to Plymouth: if I had a ticket from Paddington to Plymouth why shouldn't I be on that train?

Or to say much the same thing in rather different words: even if it's not explicit in NRCoT that you can only used an advertised train, isn't it implicit?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'm pretty certain I've previously encountered some fairly ancient case law, an appeal against conviction in this sort of scenario. I also have a niggling thought that there may also be civil case law where the railway sued the passenger. I'll take a look during the week, but I suspect it involved some obscure 19th century legislation.

Something in the back of my mind says it was the original London and North Western Railway, so pre 1922. I don't think there ever was/is a specific offence, but it may have been considered an intentional trespass of some sort.

The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is probably fairly well known on this forum, but there's early railway legislation and case law covering pretty much every imaginable scenario (a lot still applicable to rogues of today) going back to 1840!

 

[Watershed]

I'm about to be right out of my depth in that I haven't got an answer to my own question, but are the NRCoT the only conditions that apply to railway travel?

Obviously there's also statute law, but it seems to me that it's reasonable that you can only travel on advertised services - that is, services that the railway somehow say can be used for the journey you want to make. I don't see that the railway are obliged to offer carriage to anyone just because a train is going between two given points: otherwise (back when there was such a thing) there would have been nothing in the rules to stop me hopping on to the Plymouth mail train at Paddington even though it didn't carry passengers - it was a train, at Paddington, and going to Plymouth: if I had a ticket from Paddington to Plymouth why shouldn't I be on that train?

Or to say much the same thing in rather different words: even if it's not explicit in NRCoT that you can only used an advertised train, isn't it implicit?

I appreciate the point you're making - there's more to the NRCoT that has to be interpreted in. It's very poorly drafted and leaves a lot of issues unclear.

But if the railway wanted to be able to treat a passenger who used a passenger service from A to B on an A to B ticket as ticketless, the NRCoT would have to spell that out. The consequences of being considered ticketless are so significant that they can't just be implied into the contract - it would represent an onerous term in a consumer contract, of which adequate notice needs to be given.

Coming back to your Plymouth mail train example, there you wouldn't be entitled to board that service purely because the operator would not be a Train Company that participated in the NRCoT.

Perhaps a more helpful example would be to consider a passenger who managed to board an ECS working that went to the station where their ticket was valid to. I think most people would accept that it wasn't intended for them to get on such a service, and that staff would be perfectly entitled to deny or prevent boarding, but equally that there could be no penalty for doing so.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Perhaps a more helpful example would be to consider a passenger who managed to board an ECS working that went to the station where their ticket was valid to. I think most people would accept that it wasn't intended for them to get on such a service, and that staff would be perfectly entitled to deny or prevent boarding, but equally that there could be no penalty for doing so.

I can't help but feel that this is a surprising conclusion.

It's easy enough to show that the law applies sanctions for many - maybe most? - pieces of behaving out of line on the railway. So for a fairly plausible piece of misbehaviour (and thanks to @Watershed for providing something that might actually happen) to be unsanctionable is surprising.

And if the result is surprising, might that suggest that the railway might read the rules in a way that wouldn't give this result?

 

[Watershed]

I can't help but feel that this is a surprising conclusion.

It's easy enough to show that the law applies sanctions for many - maybe most? - pieces of behaving out of line on the railway. So for a fairly plausible piece of misbehaviour (and thanks to @Watershed for providing something that might actually happen) to be unsanctionable is surprising.

And if the result is surprising, might that suggest that the railway might read the rules in a way that wouldn't give this result?

I'm sure there might be arguments around whether it's a breach of Byelaw 10(2) or 13(1) et al, but firstly, such offences are effectively never prosecuted, and in any event they wouldn't provide a basis for charging the fare from the last "open" call.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing I've wondered is if with the increase in e-tickets the railway may do some data fishing to find people who do this sort of thing a lot and send them settlement offers/invitations to incriminate themselves regardless of whether an actual case would stand up in Court, so anyone doing this often may prefer to use paper tickets purchased for cash.

Similarly people who often finish short on Advances etc.

 

[ricoblade]

In the days of slam door stock I once witnessed a fully suited and booted punter open the door at Reading and jump from a West Country bound train as it passed non stop through the platform. The platform staff shouted at him but he walked off seemingly without a care in the world and, amazingly, unharmed.

I saw this happen at the closed (in 1968) Millhouses and Ecclesall station, south of Sheffield, in the early 80s while the platforms were still there. We slowed right down/stopped and somebody suited and booted bailed, was shouted at by the guard, but just continued on his way.

 

[island]

When Reading had some pick up only stops, it was quite amusing on the rare occasion, normally during some kind of disruption, but occasionally where there was a relief train at Reading, to see extremely upset commuters heading first stop Taunton when the Pick Up only stop had been pulled for whatever reason.

On even rarer occasions the HST was met by RPIs at Taunton and Penalty Fares for twice the SOS from London Terminals to Taunton ensued

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'm sure there might be arguments around whether it's a breach of Byelaw 10(2) or 13(1) et al, but firstly, such offences are effectively never prosecuted, and in any event they wouldn't provide a basis for charging the fare from the last "open" call.

Byelaw 13(1) has much more merit than 10(2) - but I don't think you'd have too much difficulty prosecuting either as they both have a lot of scope and can be widely interpreted.

You'd be particularly likely to get a successful prosecution at the likes of Watford Junction for Byelaw 13(1) given the railway goes to a fair bit of effort to publicise the DO NOT BOARD/ SET DOWN ONLY restrictions there. Last time I saw that situation, every single departure board on that platform had a prohibitive message showing, supplemented with an occasional announcement to stand clear and not board.

Anywhere else you'd have to see how much effort the railway had made with notices.

In practice, I don't think there's really a way to extract an additional fare out of a passenger, (save for an out of court settlement amount), but there certainly is sufficient scope and powers to refuse access to a train and to refuse access to a platform, e.g. at a ticket barrier. Failing to comply with such a request would be an offence.

You COULD in theory be prosecuted (Byelaw 18) or more likely, charged an additional fare, if for some reason the train skipped that unadvertised stop and as a result you ended up at Crewe instead of Milton Keynes. You'd also have to buy a ticket back.

I suspect the first time a passenger experiences their Milton Keynes "stop" by unexpectedly flying through it at 100mph, they'd be unlikely to do it again anyway!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Apr 2023 ==

On even rarer occasions the HST was met by RPIs at Taunton and Penalty Fares for twice the SOS from London Terminals to Taunton ensued

And a ticket home to boot!!

 

[Jimini]

Reminds me of this thread from a few years ago:

1915 from Paddington skipping the Pick up only call tonight

Any one ignoring the Reading Pick up only at Paddington on tonight's 19:15 from London Paddington to Swansea may have had a surprise. The train left London so full and standing it was decided by FGW to skip the Pick Up only call at Reading making first stop Swindon. By all accounts the service...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[greyman42]

My question is, what are the potential consequences of this, other than perhaps some peeved off platform staff?

I would imagine that the platform staff could not care less.

 

[Benjwri]

I would imagine that the platform staff could not care less

There are definitely some Reading staff that do, have seen them shout at people before.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are definitely some Reading staff that do, have seen them shout at people before.

They definitely enforce it at Watford, even to the extent sometimes of delaying a train to find and remove the errant passenger. At MKC rather less so, but there are few such trains left there now.

It's less of an issue at Watford in practice though as most trains to Euston you can use don't use that platform, so people won't naturally be there.

 

[greyman42]

There are definitely some Reading staff that do, have seen them shout at people before.

Then they must be short of things to do, perhaps they should be found jobs to do to keep them busy. What is the point in shouting at someone, do they think they are going to jump back on the train or are they just on a power trip?