East Midlands Railway overcrowding issues

[BJames]

The 65 minute turnarounds ended when the HSTs were withdrawn. Usual set up is now 25 minutes for the Corby service, and between 25 and 40 minutes for the Nottingham and Sheffield services. You do get some workings that come in as a double and then split (and vv) and some services that are ECS to/from Cricklewood.

There are also a couple now with really tight turnarounds - e.g. 1B40 arriving STP from Nottingham at 12:54, forming 1D41 back to NOT at 13:05. This frequently leaves STP late as just a few minutes of delay accumulated inbound is enough to delay departure - not to mention adding the time of alighting and boarding from Platform 4a, as the previous 1B37 arrival from NOT sits in 4B until its departure at 1435 on 1D48.

Last year EMR got the Skeggy provision largely right.
Monday to Friday, of the 5 diagrams only 1 was a 2 car, 3 were 3 car, and 1 was 2 x 2 car.
Summer Saturday, of the 5 diagrams, 1 was a 3 car, and the other 4 were 2 x 2 car. The 180s were at 0825 and 0940 of Nottingham, returning at 1140 and 1335.

With the 180s leaving I expect buses on standby will be their replacement for this summer, along with less 4 cars to free up units to replace their extra workings. Time will tell...

Am I right in thinking in their time EMT hired in some loco-hauled/charter sets to Skegness? I'm sure I read something about it on here or perhaps saw on Youtube but not 100% sure... and could this potentially work for crowd-busting again now the 180s are heading off?

 

[Failed Unit]

Last year EMR got the Skeggy provision largely right.
Monday to Friday, of the 5 diagrams only 1 was a 2 car, 3 were 3 car, and 1 was 2 x 2 car.
Summer Saturday, of the 5 diagrams, 1 was a 3 car, and the other 4 were 2 x 2 car. The 180s were at 0825 and 0940 of Nottingham, returning at 1140 and 1335.

With the 180s leaving I expect buses on standby will be their replacement for this summer, along with less 4 cars to free up units to replace their extra workings. Time will tell...

It is hard to predict this year as they will have the 3 car 170s from Cardiff. EMR will have at least 14 of them (hopefully I have counted them correctly). So even with 3 allocated to Worksop - Nottingham and 3 Allocated to Leicester - Grimsby (which may not happen of course). That still gives us the possibility of 5 / 6 car peak Nottingham - Skegness to replace the 180s.

However it probably more challenging to take stock from elsewhere. Liverpool - Nottingham really needs 4 car units but 4 car 158s are better than 4 car 170s on Nottingham - Skegness. I guess it is possible they could use a 222 on Nottingham - Liverpool but that has its issues as well as I am not aware of any diagrams that don’t require some of the train to go to Norwich. I guess we will set, but I think EMR have more 170s then they did 156s for the summer (compared to last year).

 

[QSK19]

Loco hauled 360s .

Presumably they’re referring to when the wiring is complete to Market Harborough and eventually Leicester, and beyond.

I forgot to insert the face after my loco-hauled idea. I agree that it would be quite funny to see that!

Just got this image of train spotting at Loughborough with my son and him asking “daddy, why is there a Class 360 here?”

 

[Failed Unit]

Loco hauled 360s .

Presumably they’re referring to when the wiring is complete to Market Harborough and eventually Leicester, and beyond.

Correct, I was thinking when they can get to Nottingham / Derby under their own power. I can’t think of many times they will be needed either to be honest. Unless the football brings large crowds. If they are used for engineering work cover like this weekend they are moving large crowds to Derby where a small DMU will be overwhelmed. We already see this a lot when the MML is shut and the crowds travel via Grantham to Nottingham. The 2 car sprinter is often unable to cope with the crowds between Nottingham and Grantham.

 

[Watershed]

when they can get to Nottingham / Derby under their own power

That would be never, then! The DfT has already made noises about scrapping MML electrification north of Wigston.

 

[43066]

I forgot to insert the face after my loco-hauled idea. I agree that it would be quite funny to see that!

It might make them more reliable .

Correct, I was thinking when they can get to Nottingham / Derby under their own power.

They will probably have been withdrawn by the time that becomes possible!

 

[Class 170101]

However it probably more challenging to take stock from elsewhere. Liverpool - Nottingham really needs 4 car units but 4 car 158s are better than 4 car 170s on Nottingham - Skegness. I guess it is possible they could use a 222 on Nottingham - Liverpool but that has its issues as well as I am not aware of any diagrams that don’t require some of the train to go to Norwich. I guess we will set, but I think EMR have more 170s then they did 156s for the summer (compared to last year).

The Norwich to Liverpool route can be split at Nottingham if Class 222s are needed to the west of Nottingham. See the plan for the Grand National at Aintree, 7 car 222s have run Nottingham to / from Liverpool but not onwards to / from Norwich.

 

[JonathanH]

Am I right in thinking in their time EMT hired in some loco-hauled/charter sets to Skegness? I'm sure I read something about it on here or perhaps saw on Youtube but not 100% sure... and could this potentially work for crowd-busting again now the 180s are heading off?

Absolutely not going to happen again. Hiring in 66s and coaches on 26 August 2017, despite GBRf's best attempts to find ones which were not 'red pen' examples, just resulted in enthusiasts filling up the train, rather than providing additional capacity.

As the post above says, EMR have Skegness largely under control by providing right sized unit formations.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Skegness is planned to be 3 car 170s throughout the summer, with 4 car 170s or 158s on the extras from Derby.

 

[Failed Unit]

Skegness is planned to be 3 car 170s throughout the summer, with 4 car 170s or 158s on the extras from Derby.

The 158s would be better of course, but just interested how many stations on the route can’t take anything longer then 3 coaches? I know the big ones (Grantham, Sleaford, Boston and Skegness can) Not sure about other principle stops such as Heckington and Wainfleet.

 

[STINT47]

It looks like most trains on the Sheffield - London route are full this afternoon with first class often declassified.

The Sheffield to London semi fasts are non stopping between Derby and Leicester. Nottingham fasts are making an extra stop at Loughborough but if your trying to go from Long Eatonto London you've had it

 

[43066]

but if your trying to go from Long Eatonto London you've had it

Long Eaton has hourly London services at XX40 today.

 

[STINT47]

Long Eaton has hourly London services at XX40 today.

The services at 14, 15 and 16:40 are all cancelled due to overcrowding. Trains are non stopping

 

[BJames]

Indeed, EMR tweeted this today:

#EMRUpdate Can ALL Avanti West Coast Customers traveling North out of London St Pancras today use our connect services and change at Bedford for onward connections.

I somewhat imagine this message has fallen on deaf ears... not surprisingly so

 

[Class 170101]

It looks like most trains on the Sheffield - London route are full this afternoon with first class often declassified.

The Sheffield to London semi fasts are non stopping between Derby and Leicester. Nottingham fasts are making an extra stop at Loughborough but if your trying to go from Long Eatonto London you've had it

Long Eaton has hourly London services at XX40 today.

@43066 I think @STINT47 means there aren't other alternative services for Long Eaton. I guess passengers could go to Nottingham on XC and then get a train from Nottingham (or Beeston) for London but I imagine other punters will have the same idea.

Indeed, EMR tweeted this today:

I somewhat imagine this message has fallen on deaf ears... not surprisingly so

I would agree and indeed I'm surprised EMR hasn't considered extra trains services between Derby and Stoke / Crewe using Class 180s / Class 222s

 

[Watershed]

Indeed, EMR tweeted this today:

I somewhat imagine this message has fallen on deaf ears... not surprisingly so

No surprises there. Nobody wants to take a replacement bus from Bedford to Milton Keynes. However, if they're going to direct people this way, they might as well direct people towards the 12 coach Thameslink services whilst they're at it, rather than just the Corby services that are 8 coaches at most.

 

[TheBigD]

It looks like most trains on the Sheffield - London route are full this afternoon with first class often declassified.

The Sheffield to London semi fasts are non stopping between Derby and Leicester. Nottingham fasts are making an extra stop at Loughborough but if your trying to go from Long Eatonto London you've had it

Most trains just 5 cars except...

7 cars...
0556, 0700, 1036, 1100, 1400, 1537, 2101.
5 + 5 cars...
0630, 0837, 1237.

 

[43055]

Most trains just 5 cars except...

7 cars...
0556, 0700, 1036, 1100, 1400, 1537, 2101.
5 + 5 cars...
0630, 0837, 1237.

Which are the normal formations for a weekday.

 

[chessie]

I usually avoid Matlock Bath on an Easter weekend but I was there on Saturday. Never seen it so busy in years, I dont think there was one car parking space left after 1pm and all trains were absolutely rammed.

 

[MML]

If EMR could only operate standard weekday formations and were unable to bolster available stock, then they should have insisted only customers with seat reservations could travel on their Inter City services.
All customers without seat reservations would need to travel on EMR Connect services which should have been a mix of 8 and 12 car, or Thameslink services to Bedford.
But without proper planning and policing, customers will merely be sent by online Journey Planners via the quickest route, even if the St Pancras to Derby is a overcrowded 5 car and the Derby to Crewe an inadequate 2 car DMU. Customers like water will simply flow via the easiest or quickest route.
As for 5 car Aurora trains doubling up to 10 car formations, this would only be planned for the peak flow. Given the driving cabs are more expensive than a simple coach and will have less seating capacity, I'm surprised it costs less to manufacture and operate 2 x 5 car formations with 4 cabs, rather than 1 x 10 car formations with 2 cabs all day. There is also the additional cost of doubling of onboard staff as happens when LNER operate 2 x 5 car rather than 1 x 9 car.

 

[BJames]

If EMR could only operate standard weekday formations and were unable to bolster available stock, then they should have insisted only customers with seat reservations could travel on their Inter City services.
All customers without seat reservations would need to travel on EMR Connect services which should have been a mix of 8 and 12 car, or Thameslink services to Bedford.
But without proper planning and policing, customers will merely be sent by online Journey Planners via the quickest route, even if the St Pancras to Derby is a overcrowded 5 car and the Derby to Crewe an inadequate 2 car DMU. Customers like water will simply flow via the easiest or quickest route.

The problem with this is what about non-displaced customers with open returns or season tickets to e.g. Nottingham or Derby? Not all of those are issued with seat reservations, and them getting to Bedford or Kettering does not then enable them to get to Nottingham or Derby. Plus, booked 180 diagrams do not come with seat reservations, merely counted places for advance ticket holders and nothing offered for open returns. Even if these are switched out to 222s on the day they hold no reservations.

Those travelling as far as Kettering could take connect but this won't shift a huge amount of people from the IC services and is pretty unenforceable, but anyway, Kettering needs to remain a stop on the IC Nottinghams to ensure a connection opportunity for Luton/Bedford/Wellingborough.

Edit: I mentioned earlier, they did actually try to insist that people take Connect rather than their services all the way north, not that people listened (I would likely have ignored it as well, especially if I was early enough to grab a seat! The concept of RRB is not appealing to many, even if they have to stand on the train)

 

[Joey Beauchamp]

The 158s would be better of course, but just interested how many stations on the route can’t take anything longer then 3 coaches? I know the big ones (Grantham, Sleaford, Boston and Skegness can) Not sure about other principle stops such as Heckington and Wainfleet.

Heckington can accommodate 4 cars heading towards Skeggy, but not the other way. Not sure about Wainfleet.

 

[43066]

If EMR could only operate standard weekday formations and were unable to bolster available stock, then they should have insisted only customers with seat reservations could travel on their Inter City services.

So, at a time when there were 1:30+ queues to join trains, you would have had trains leaving St Pancras with significant unused capacity.

But without proper planning and policing, customers will merely be sent by online Journey Planners via the quickest route, even if the St Pancras to Derby is a overcrowded 5 car and the Derby to Crewe an inadequate 2 car DMU. Customers like water will simply flow via the easiest or quickest route.

There is no way for a few barrier staff to “police” this, given the passenger numbers involved (tens of thousands - many of whom were not, in fact, EMR’s customers). The only options available are to put queuing in place/restrict access through the gatelines, as was done, or possibly denial of ticket acceptance (as has been done previously).

 

[liamf656]

The only options available are to put queuing in place/restrict access through the gatelines, as was done, or possibly denial of ticket acceptance (as has been done previously).

Last time the WCML was closed like this there wasn’t any ticket acceptance. Thousands still chose to ignore it and overwhelm EMRs services, which is probably why they did accept them this time

 

[43066]

Last time the WCML was closed like this there wasn’t any ticket acceptance. Thousands still chose to ignore it and overwhelm EMRs services, which is probably why they did accept them this time

It’s at least easier to prevent people getting through the barriers and/or disseminate information that only those with certain tickets will be carried.

Part of the issue is that many Manchester/Crewe etc. passengers would rather travel by IC to Sheffield than take a 360 then a bus from Kettering to Northampton (or wherever), and who can really blame them! The staff can direct them towards the 360s but many will choose to ignore this and join an IC service.

 

[LowLevel]

Heckington can accommodate 4 cars heading towards Skeggy, but not the other way. Not sure about Wainfleet.

Heckington is 4 both ways. Wainfleet is 3 towards Skegness and 4 coming back.

Bingham is 3 both ways. Aslockton is 2 going to Skegness and 3 coming back. Bottesford is 4 going but 2 coming back (until platform works are done).

 

[miklcct]

Last time the WCML was closed like this there wasn’t any ticket acceptance. Thousands still chose to ignore it and overwhelm EMRs services, which is probably why they did accept them this time

My ticket is routed "Any Permitted" hence using EMR to Sheffield is a permitted route. I don't think there are many route-restricted tickets to Avanti destinations, so there is nothing to prevent people using EMR.

At the end I chose to be driven back to an EMR intercity station for my return journey rather than Lancaster because there were more trains compared to the hourly service at Lancaster.

 

[STINT47]

Years ago when the WCML was closed BR dragged trains to Bedford and then ran pan up to St Pancras. We need to get back to doing things like this to avoid scenes that we saw this weekend.

 

[dosxuk]

Years ago when the WCML was closed BR dragged trains to Bedford and then ran pan up to St Pancras. We need to get back to doing things like this to avoid scenes that we saw this weekend.

Years ago there was tons of platform space at St Pancras, and loads of paths available on the lines out of there. Is it the same today?

 

[3RDGEN]

Given Euston blocks are routine why not put a long-term plan in place to extend one Thameslink services an hour to Kettering/Corby vice the Connect services during blocks? This gives redirected passengers a direct London service instead of changing at Bedford so their more likely to use it instead of overcrowding the IC services. Thameslink drivers conducted by EMR drivers north of Bedford should be possible vice the usual Connect 360 service, the 360's released could then strengthen the remaining Connect services.