Rail Replacement Bus Actually Issuing Tickets

[embers25]

The all stations rail replacement bus from Hereford to Craven Arms is being operated by Yeomans and the driver is able to issue tickets from his normal bus ticket machine for journeys to intermediate stations at the correct Avantix prices. The bus ticket you get says Yeomans rail replacement service operated on behalf of Arriva Trains Wales and has the from and to stations on it!! He is also checking in detail all other tickets....this tops even Nat Ex East Anglia!!! The Arriva guy coordinating the buses at the station is quite happy for him to check too.

I know the issues we have all stated before about drivers checking tickets but bus ticket machines (it is NOT a train ticket machine) and drivers issuing tickets from none railway ticket machines is a whole new level in my experience. How is this allowed and surely the RMT would not be happy taking away a guard or stations staff member duty? I don't think he's selling tickets beyond Craven Arms but still!! Given the fact that most new bus machines could do this too maybe this is a way forward to avoid fare evasion without needing guards on the buses and so should be expanded?!

More interesting now is that some kids have school passes that are valid on Arriva trains Wales to school but the bus driver is saying they aren't valid weekends and is made them buy a ticket! They challenged him and he is now checking with the station staff but this highlights perfectly why bus drivers shouldn't issue or do ticket checks as they don't know their validities.

 

[91101]

Sounds bizzare, I wonder how its going to work with downloading the sales data into Lennon!

 

[driver9000]

Certainly a new one on me. When I drove RR coaches we were told not to look at tickets, but that was some years ago now. It all sounds above board if slightly unusual especially as the station staff/bus supervisors are allowing it and the correct fare table is in the machine. Guards don't travel on RR services and I imagine some of the stations are unmanned or have closed booking offices on Sundays, this could be a new way of revenue protection as long as Driver's are trained on the ticketing scales and validity in force.

Why would a school pass be valid on a Sunday? As they are for getting to and from school, certainly the schools passes I used to deal with were only valid Monday to Friday term time only.

 

[WestCoast]

I had a rail replacement bus last month on Halifax - Hebden Bridge, where the driver made announcements like a guard would, in the same format and he checked tickets too.

I swear he was a member of rail staff, a bus driver wouldn't know to do these things.

Bus drivers can check tickets, but they need to realise rail ticketing is much more complicated than bus ticketing. There will be things that they haven't seen or don't know if its valid - certain routes, rovers and rangers e.t.c and they just need to let people on if they aren't sure.

 

[WillPS]

So, what if I got on and wanted to pay with my MasterCard, as I am entitled to?

 

[embers25]

The credit card issue is a big one. Also the time taken to issue tickets to confused passengers meat the bus was late and only just made the train. The kids claimed their passes allowed weekend travel which I too thought was odd but I doubt a bus driver would know rail pass validity. The bus was actually Lugg Valley driven by a Yeomans driver with a Yeomans machine so Iguess they must be the same company.

 

[WillPS]

I have often wondered why there is nobody with an Avantix on rail-replacements services. Would make sense for it to be a union thing (not that I disapprove).

 

[yorkie]

I trust the driver is fully trained in ticketing matters?

I also trust the Unions have agreed to this?

If not, they need to stop the practice immediately.

So, what if I got on and wanted to pay with my MasterCard, as I am entitled to?

You are entitled to, but if they do not have the facility on the bus, pay at your destination (or on the next train or at a suitable interchange if time permits, if applicable).

More interesting now is that some kids have school passes that are valid on Arriva trains Wales to school but the bus driver is saying they aren't valid weekends and is made them buy a ticket! They challenged him and he is now checking with the station staff but this highlights perfectly why bus drivers shouldn't issue or do ticket checks as they don't know their validities.

He may be right actually, I don't agree with this but anyone who states their religion as Catholic in Malton who gets a place at All Saints school in York is entitled to a free season ticket apparently, and I believe this is paid for at taxpayers expense (would be OK with me if the Catholic church is funding it. However I was told that they are not valid on non-schooldays. I don't know if this is still the case as my info may be out of date. A similar scheme may exist elsewhere, or it may be a national thing.

 

[Z12XE]

Google "Turners Rail Replacement Bures", to see a video of why Rail Replacement Bus Drivers should not get involved in ticketing, which is exactly the advise this driver should have taken

 

[Aictos]

I have often wondered why there is nobody with an Avantix on rail-replacements services. Would make sense for it to be a union thing (not that I disapprove).

Personally I would like to see a Avantix equipped rail staff member on long distance rail replacement services who would be able to answer queries from passengers, issue and check tickets etc...

I fail to see how just because it's a rail replacement service that staff can't work these services as they work the rail services.

Failing that, I would like staff to be available at the station of origin and terminus of the rail replacement services which would improve the service that passengers get.

 

[bluenoxid]

Personally, I wonder if they could manage to put a member or staff on all services with an Advantix. Too many people are quick to quote the union, who would probably be very unhappy with the alternatives for their members.

Validity is for someone else to confirm. Like Railstaff on the trains, they should contact the central point for this to clarify.

I do wonder how the Railway Byelaws fall with a rail replacement bus driver issuing and checking tickets.

 

[First class]

(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person

A Rail Replacement driver could theoretically be an "authorised person".

“authorised person” means:
(i) a person acting in the course of his duties who:
(a) is an employee or agent of an Operator, or
(b) any other person authorised by an Operator, o

 

[googolplex]

I did once see a conductor on a rail replacement bus, back in the days of BR. I don't think I've seen one since though, with most bus drivers not bothering to check ticket validity.

 

[Anon Mouse]

I always thought that drivers of rail replacements had nothing to do with tickets so maybe this is a new thing or as somebody said before due to the amount of unstaffed stations. I feel very uneasy about bus drivers doing our job and I certainly think it would be better to have staff at the stations issuing tickets and giving out information.

Digressing slightly, there is large scale engineering work between Tynemouth and Byker on the Tyne & Wear Metro. In the past you were required to buy a ticket from the machine on the station then get on the bus and the drivers just drove the bus. However during these works the bus drivers are selling the tickets on their machines on ticket stock endorsed Metro Replacement and the metro stations are closed to the public. My Wife has had some funny looks from the drivers showing her Spouse Pass, but she's had no bother.

 

[jon0844]

As long as the staff, who can't work because of the rail replacement service, are paid accordingly - or have had their shifts worked out accordingly - what's the harm in the railway protecting its revenue?

Surely the TOC receiving the proper revenue, as against running buses so people get to travel free, means more money for the TOC - which is a good thing when you work for them?

Now if said TOC suddenly thought 'hey, let's run buses all the time' then that's a different matter!!

My concern would be the time. As a result, I'd have staff on the ground to issue tickets unless the buses were running frequently enough (as well as trains at the other end, if a connection is to be made) when timings wouldn't be so important as you just take the next one coming in a short time. That would clearly depend on the circumstances of the work/route.

 

[WillPS]

I personally think it's insulting that we're expected to pay anything like full fare when the train companies fail to deliver a train.

 

[Anon Mouse]

I personally think it's insulting that we're expected to pay anything like full fare when the train companies fail to deliver a train.

You have a very good point, but the conditions of carriage only stipulate that 'a' service be provided. This means that even a Donkey and Cart can be supplied and they still will be providing the service.......

 

[Dennis]

While I 100% agree that TOC's should be protecting their revenue, I'm sure some customers might get irate turning up at the train station then being charged railway prices by a bus driver for a bus journey. Getting a free bus ride is viewed by some as suitable compensation for a disrupted journey at the weekend!

Also, regarding an earlier comment along the lines of "the bus driver might not know what tickets are valid", unfortunately the same can be said for some rail staff. If this was not true, the ticketing/fares subforum would be significantly thinner.

 

[Anon Mouse]

While I 100% agree that TOC's should be protecting their revenue, I'm sure some customers might get irate turning up at the train station then being charged railway prices by a bus driver for a bus journey. Getting a free bus ride is viewed by some as suitable compensation for a disrupted journey at the weekend!

I guess they are the same passengers who think a busy train = 1st class travel and free refreshments and cue at ticket office/too bust for Guard to grip tickets = free ride?

Also, regarding an earlier comment along the lines of "the bus driver might not know what tickets are valid", unfortunately the same can be said for some rail staff. If this was not true, the ticketing/fares subforum would be significantly thinner.

The difference is, rail staff are trained for that, bus drivers are not.

 

[sonic2009]

Google "Turners Rail Replacement Bures", to see a video of why Rail Replacement Bus Drivers should not get involved in ticketing, which is exactly the advise this driver should have taken

haha the driver on the video on youtube. should of bought your ticket yesterday !!

 

[WestCoast]

haha the driver on the video on youtube. should of bought your ticket yesterday !!

What an idiot:roll:

Shouldn't the insurance that the bus company holds cover the passengers in case of an accident - as I presume legally the bus in ON HIRE to the TOC, not on revenue service?

 

[Dennis]

The difference is, rail staff are trained for that, bus drivers are not.

true, in principle. However given the complexities of ticketing, I doubt that many rail staff have 100% accurate knowledge and presumably any bus driver issuing rail tickets will at least have had a modicum of training covering the basic fare stucture of the routes being operated.

It will be intersting to see how many mis-sold ticket stories arise from this operation.

 

[Anon Mouse]

true, in principle. However given the complexities of ticketing, I doubt that many rail staff have 100% accurate knowledge and presumably any bus driver issuing rail tickets will at least have had a modicum of training covering the basic fare stucture of the routes being operated.

It will be intersting to see how many mis-sold ticket stories arise from this operation.

Yes. i agree with you, I am certain nobody has 100% accurate knowledge of the fares etc unless they read the Ticket Examiners Handbook before bed each night. However I guess most of us will have about 80% knowlegdge or know who to ask. Bus Drivers however will only know the fares on the route card of the services they work on and I doubt they will be given much training anyway

 

[Dennis]

Bus Drivers however will only know the fares on the route card of the services they work on and I doubt they will be given much training anyway

Well, I'm intrigued as to how well this idea will work out - to me it seems quite sensible. Any requests for tickets where onward train travel is required will surely be met with the response 'buy it at the station or on the train' rather than a bus driver getting bogged down with complex ticketing matters.

 

[yorkie]

What an idiot:roll:

Agreed.

Interestingly they ignored him, and boarded anyway. Good for them, I'd certainly have done the same.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well, I'm intrigued as to how well this idea will work out - to me it seems quite sensible. Any requests for tickets where onward train travel is required will surely be met with the response 'buy it at the station or on the train' rather than a bus driver getting bogged down with complex ticketing matters.

In theory they can issue the initial ticket, and then this can be exchanged with/excessed to the appropriate ticket at the next opportunity.

 

[cslusarc]

I live in the Canadian Province of Manitoba, and I'm fascinated about School Passes valid on rail that was mentioned above not being valid on Weekends.

Out here most kids here walk, ride a bycycle or take a yellow school bus to get to school. School buses are mostly funded by Provincical Governent in Manitoba. However, the Provincial Grant is not given to students in their last 6 years of school, when they are in grades 7-12, if they live in an urban area and are able bodied. As a result some students drive themselves (if over 16), have their parents drive them or ride a municipal transit bus if the live too far to walk or ride a bycycle.

What kind of situations would require a kid to ride a train to get to a primary, middle or secondary school?

 

[Ivo]

The obvious answer is a lack of buses. I seem to recall Rye having quite a large number of school usage, with most probably headed for Ham Street and many more travelling south towards Hastings. However, this is only really true at secondary level.

Another such example I can think of is the Crouch Valley Line, where many in Burnham-on-Crouch go to south Woodham Ferrers and vice-versa, with almost no connecting buses; this also applies to the intermediate stations at North Fambridge and Althorne.

Essentially though, it only really happens when the bus provision is really poor or, failing that, the railway is so localised that it is easier than going by bus (Cardiff and Birkenhead/Wallasey being good examples of this). We don't really have a yellow school bus scheme over here; only a limited number of contract routes for schools with augmented (or rural) catchments.

I've heard good things about Manitoba, although that might be because my source lives there

 

[thelem]

I'm not sure what the problem is here, or what people are suggesting they should do:
* Not check tickets? Then they lose out on the revenue.
* Pay an extra member of staff? An expensive option when there is already someone on board who is perfectly capable of checking / issuing the vast majority of tickets, and can give the benefit of the doubt on the others.

The general objections seem to be "but it's not a rail member of staff". That shouldn't matter if they can do the job (and I don't see why a bus driver wouldn't be able to), but seems to be the typical reaction due to the protectionist unions.

 

[185]

Utterly disgusting. That sort of thing should be seen as a basic breach of franchise.
Merseyrail's new handheld rubbish ticket machine is similar, issuing flimsy car park type reciept tickets only valid for Merseyrail.

Companies that cannot issue tickets for the full national network, should go operate buses instead. The technology in this day and age is available, so there is no excuse.

 

[WillPS]

I used to have a council issued pass for going to a Catholic school (although I completely agree with Yorkie, they are wrong). It had on it the name of the road on which my nearest Bus Stop was, and the name of my school, and was only valid for travel between 0600 and 1800 Monday - Friday (although some drivers used to make up some daytime restriction also which I never saw any proof of).

It was essentially a bus pass, although the T&Cs on the back made it clear that it could be used by rail and tram also - but I could not reasonably argue that any railway journey could have formed part of my journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure what the problem is here, or what people are suggesting they should do:
* Not check tickets? Then they lose out on the revenue.
* Pay an extra member of staff? An expensive option when there is already someone on board who is perfectly capable of checking / issuing the vast majority of tickets, and can give the benefit of the doubt on the others.

The general objections seem to be "but it's not a rail member of staff". That shouldn't matter if they can do the job (and I don't see why a bus driver wouldn't be able to), but seems to be the typical reaction due to the protectionist unions.

Hello, I'd like to pay using my MasterCard.