Where can Electrostars/Desiros actually reach 100mph

[dtin]

I know there has been a discussion on the Turbostars and the Sprinters, in terms of where on the rail network they can reach their max speed, but what about their electric counterparts?

For the Electrostar I imagine it would be on the lines out of London Paddington (Great Western) and Kings Cross (Great Northern/Thameslink) and in the past from Liverpool Street (Greater Anglia) and St Pancras (Thameslink/First Capital Connect)

For the Desiros I can only think of the lines out of London Liverpool Street (Greater Anglia) from the days when the Great Eastern route had desiros running on it and London Euston (West Midlands Trains/London Midland)

Are there any others which I have missed out or just do not know about?

 

[Kite159]

No Desiros from Liverpool Street these days and the only Electrostar is the weekend C2C services.

Fastest Electrostar will be on the Great Western with 110mph running on the Newbury & Bristol/Cardiff 387s, the Great Northern ones will hit 100mph on Cambridge + Peterborough (peak time) services.

Desiros LNR on the London - Crewe trains (nonstop from London to Milton Keynes and to Rugby) plus the Birmingham trains which go on the fast lines south of Leighton Buzzard. Plus EMR between Bedford & Kettering should get to 110mph. 3rd rail wise the Desiros should hit 100mph between Basingstoke & Weybridge , especially if they don't call at Woking.

 

[dtin]

No Desiros from Liverpool Street these days and the only Electrostar is the weekend C2C services.

Fastest Electrostar will be on the Great Western with 110mph running on the Newbury & Bristol/Cardiff 387s, the Great Northern ones will hit 100mph on Cambridge + Peterborough (peak time) services.

Desiros LNR on the London - Crewe trains (nonstop from London to Milton Keynes and to Rugby) plus the Birmingham trains which go on the fast lines south of Leighton Buzzard. Plus EMR between Bedford & Kettering should get to 110mph. 3rd rail wise the Desiros should hit 100mph between Basingstoke & Weybridge , especially if they don't call at Woking.

Between Weybridge and Basingstoke? I always thought it was like 80-90 mph on the lines out of London Waterloo. Can they still get that fast when they are running as 8, 10 or 12 cars instead of 4 or 5?

By London Liverpool Street I meant when the Great Eastern Desiros went out of Liverpool Street before they got transferred to East Midlands, and I meant the Greater Anglia Electrostars which used to do the stansted express and West Anglian routes.

 

[PGAT]

Isn't the straight section of track between Tonbridge and Ashford 100mph?

 

[zwk500]

Between Weybridge and Basingstoke? I always thought it was like 80-90 mph on the lines out of London Waterloo.

Sectional Appendix says for 100mph indicated linespeed on SW105:

Trains other than those composed entirely of Class 442, 444, 450, 701, 707 Units or HSTs must not exceed 90mph.

100mph running is on the Fast lines only and starts from West Byfleet (c.20m) to Eastleigh. Everything else is 90mph max.

Isn't the straight section of track between Tonbridge and Ashford 100mph?

EMU100mph from Country end of Tonbridge to Sandling Tunnel.

 

[brad465]

3rd rail wise the Desiros should hit 100mph between Basingstoke & Weybridge , especially if they don't call at Woking.

How often does a train actually get a smooth run through Woking without stopping? While the linespeed might permit it, signalling from my experience often has not (i.e. greens are rare on the approach).

Isn't the straight section of track between Tonbridge and Ashford 100mph?

It is, although most services call at most/all stations to the point that I doubt they actually reach 100mph in passenger service on the current timetable. The hourly services that skip Pluckley might, particularly ones heading from Ashford to Headcorn as these would usually have a clear run out of Ashford, as opposed to potentially restrictive signaling on the approach.

 

[dtin]

How often does a train actually get a smooth run through Woking without stopping? While the linespeed might permit it, signalling from my experience often has not (i.e. greens are rare on the approach).

It is, although most services call at most/all stations to the point that I doubt they actually reach 100mph in passenger service on the current timetable. The hourly services that skip Pluckley might, particularly ones heading from Ashford to Headcorn as these would usually have a clear run out of Ashford, as opposed to potentially restrictive signaling on the approach.

There are some Waterloo to Weymouth services (or at least there were in older timetables) which run non stop to Basingstoke or even Winchester, and definitely some that run non stop from Woking to Basingstoke or Winchester.

On the Southeastern routes aren't there some fast trains through Tonbridge and Paddock Wood?

 

[paul1609]

Sectional Appendix says for 100mph indicated linespeed on SW105:

100mph running is on the Fast lines only and starts from West Byfleet (c.20m) to Eastleigh. Everything else is 90mph max.

EMU100mph from Country end of Tonbridge to Sandling Tunnel.

Unless its changed on the Down it used to be EMU 100 from the south end of Sevenoaks Tunnel, because of the gradient it used to be quite common to hit 100 passing Hildenborough station. I think when the for Eurostar enhancements were designed it was hoped to get a 90 limit on the fast lines through Tonbridge station but this was never achieved in reality because of the lateral profile.
The power enhancement of the channel tunnel routes mean that electrostars acceleration is a lot higher than that of a Desiro on the Bournemouth Line because of the higher line voltage.

 

[Versa274]

A 4rep reached 105mph between farnborough and basingstoke on s test run on the Swml so i can imagine a 444/450 can

 

[driverd]

Can they still get that fast when they are running as 8, 10 or 12 cars instead of 4 or 5?

Just to reply to this bit, yes, multiple unit trains are generally slightly quicker to accelerate and can reach their max speed slightly easier (all things being equal between the two units) when in larger formations than shorter ones. This is because, when coupled, (unless there is some type of train fault present), the whole train gives you power, just as it would being two or three separate units, just all the units work together.

To expand, the only thing that physically stops a unit accelerating past its true maximum possible speed is air resistance and resistance within the drive mechanisms (just as with a motor car). Thus, if two trains are coupled, you have double the mass, but double the engines/traction motors, and only the same amount of air resistance as you would with a single unit; you actually have more power for a given resistance.

In reality, it's not quite as clean cut as this as some units are more powerful than others and its particularly the case with DMUs, where if you couple a particularly good example of a class to a particularly poor one, the power output of the good unit will be partially wasted in dragging a small proportion of the poor units mass around - so you generally don't notice much of a change in performance when coupled.

 

[AM9]

Just to reply to this bit, yes, multiple unit trains are generally slightly quicker to accelerate and can reach their max speed slightly easier (all things being equal between the two units) when in larger formations than shorter ones. This is because, when coupled, (unless there is some type of train fault present), the whole train gives you power, just as it would being two or three separate units, just all the units work together.

To expand, the only thing that physically stops a unit accelerating past its true maximum possible speed is air resistance and resistance within the drive mechanisms (just as with a motor car). Thus, if two trains are coupled, you have double the mass, but double the engines/traction motors, and only the same amount of air resistance as you would with a single unit; you actually have more power for a given resistance.

Plus with EMUs there is the issue of traction supply voltage, which isn't always at its nominal value. Both OLE and 3rd rail can have a lower voltage depending on distance from the feeder point and how many other trains are using the same supply. This is more of a problem with 3rd rail DC where the already low volatage results in very high currents (a 12 car) class 387 can draw 6720A which through long lengths of steel rail willcause the voltage to drop to the lower limit for normal operation. The probelm isn't so acute with OLE as the same 12-car class 387 would draw just over 200A through a copper or bronze conductor. Thus the acceleration and top speed of a dual voltage EMU can vary quite widely between systems.

 

[Doomotron]

The power enhancement of the channel tunnel routes mean that electrostars acceleration is a lot higher than that of a Desiro on the Bournemouth Line because of the higher line voltage.

Aren't they both 750V? Surely a power upgrade would be amperage instead?

 

[W'looMan]

100 M.P.H. on the South Western is permitted from Farnborough to just before Basingstoke and from Worting Junction to Eastleigh on the down fast. On the up from Eastleigh to just before Worting, and from Basingstoke to Byfleet and New Haw (fast line only). The 444's and 450's are governed to 100, although sometimes it is possible to exceed 100, if the speed sensors are not calibrated correctly.

 

[hexagon789]

Aren't they both 750V? Surely a power upgrade would be amperage instead?

That's the 'nominal' voltage, it will often be a lot less.

Especially when two or more trains are drawing off the same section you can have substantial voltage drop.

It's also possible some areas haven't been upgraded to 750V nominal from the old Southern 660V nominal, but on that point I have no idea. Certainly the two voltages were still in play well into the BR era.

 

[Sean Emmett]

Unless its changed on the Down it used to be EMU 100 from the south end of Sevenoaks Tunnel, because of the gradient it used to be quite common to hit 100 passing Hildenborough station. I think when the for Eurostar enhancements were designed it was hoped to get a 90 limit on the fast lines through Tonbridge station but this was never achieved in reality because of the lateral profile.
The power enhancement of the channel tunnel routes mean that electrostars acceleration is a lot higher than that of a Desiro on the Bournemouth Line because of the higher line voltage.

I recorded 98 mph down through Hildenborough on a recent trip to Hastings.

Whilst the line through Tonbridge station is straight, the Tonbridge (north) curve is quite tight and IIRC had a 40 mph limit in steam days, subsequently raised to 50. Would be very surprised if you could get any more round there, especially with the 40 mph turnouts for the platform roads.

I did a railtour in the 1990s which went round the curve at over 60, and it was lively. Rather too lively.

 

[Southern Dvr]

377/2s will hit (signals permitting) 100mph between Harrow and Watford Junction. Usually getting there just before Carpenders Park. On the Up if the Bushey stopper is out the way then you’ll hit the ton at Headstone Lane.

However. From May the Watfords & Hemels become 377/5 and they won’t make the 100mph before you have to slow down for the next PSR.

 

[brad465]

However. From May the Watfords & Hemels become 377/5 and they won’t make the 100mph before you have to slow down for the next PSR.

So Southeastern are finally allowing some 377/5s to go back to Southern this May?

 

[JonathanH]

However. From May the Watfords & Hemels become 377/5 and they won’t make the 100mph before you have to slow down for the next PSR.

Do you mean 5-car 377/7? Do the 5-car units lack the power to get to 100mph in the distance available?

So Southeastern are finally allowing some 377/5s to go back to Southern this May?

The posting only makes sense if the OP means 5-car 377/7s. I can't imagine that a 377/5 has worse performance than a 377/2.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Class 319 (just about!) and 331 can do 100mph on country sections of the WCML between Golborne and Lancaster.
Also between Crewe and Cheadle Hulme, and part of the North Staffs line either side of Macclesfield.
Wolverhampton-Stafford-Crewe-Liverpool is Desiro 110mph country, with Aventras soon to be in the mix.
Do class 125mph 397s count as "EMUs" in this context?

 

[Snow1964]

A 4rep reached 105mph between farnborough and basingstoke on s test run on the Swml so i can imagine a 444/450 can

Back in the days of 4REPs the line speed was 90mph, but they were before data recorders and would do 100mph. The hourly Weymouth trains were non stop between Southampton Central and Waterloo then, so had plenty of chances to exceed 90mph

The 444s and 450s are governed to 100mph, I think the original German design spec was based on 175km/h (109mph) or 180km/h (112mph). That's how 350s were able to be updated to 110mph

 

[CAF397]

The Diesel Desiro (185) frequently did 100mph at various locations between Wigan and Glasgow/Edinburgh, and on the ECML to Newcastle.

Now they only place a 185 will hit 100mph is between Church Fenton and York, and on the ECML on the way to Saltburn.

The 350/4, once upgraded, could run at 110mph at various locations between Wigan and Glasgow/Edinburgh.

 

[AM9]

Do you mean 5-car 377/7? Do the 5-car units lack the power to get to 100mph in the distance available?


The posting only makes sense if the OP means 5-car 377/7s. I can't imagine that a 377/5 has worse performance than a 377/2.

To put the record straight, all the 4-car 377s* have a power to.weight ratio around 6.91 kW/T and the five car units about 6.82 kW/T, so as near as as makes no difference. The 3-car 377/3s have 6.01kW/T, so potentially, slightly less speedy.
* Trains that don't have ac power modes have concrete? weights fitted to match the suspension dynamics of those fitted with pantographs and tranformers etc..

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2023 ==

To put the record straight, all the 4-car 377s* have a power to.weight ratio around 6.91 kW/T and the five car units about 6.82 kW/T, so as near as as makes no difference. The 3-car 377/3s have 6.01kW/T, so potentially, slightly less speedy.
* Trains that don't have ac power modes have concrete? weights fitted to match the suspension dynamics of those fitted with pantographs and transformers etc..

 

[swt_passenger]

That's the 'nominal' voltage, it will often be a lot less.

Especially when two or more trains are drawing off the same section you can have substantial voltage drop.

It's also possible some areas haven't been upgraded to 750V nominal from the old Southern 660V nominal, but on that point I have no idea. Certainly the two voltages were still in play well into the BR era.

The last 660V areas in the Waterloo approach area were only fully upgraded during the last decade, because they were waiting for the LU S stock full introduction. There were still details of the remaining power upgrade project in the CP5 enhancement plans, (ie 2014-19), back when the online documents were still being regularly updated, so around the mid 2010s.

In one of the reports I found on my PC they wrote that the whole inner area of south London except around Wimbledon had been upgraded to 750V “by 2014“. So that’s implying they were still possibly working on improvements in all 3 divisions of the SR up until then.

 

[zwk500]

Do class 125mph 397s count as "EMUs" in this context?

125mph Class 397s certainly are EMUs but they're part of the CAF 'Civity' family rather than the Bombardier (later Alstom?) 'Electrostar' or Siemens 'Desiro' families.

 

[bramling]

I recorded 98 mph down through Hildenborough on a recent trip to Hastings.

Whilst the line through Tonbridge station is straight, the Tonbridge (north) curve is quite tight and IIRC had a 40 mph limit in steam days, subsequently raised to 50. Would be very surprised if you could get any more round there, especially with the 40 mph turnouts for the platform roads.

I did a railtour in the 1990s which went round the curve at over 60, and it was lively. Rather too lively.

I remember the speed run from Dover to Victoria carried out just before the CEPs finished. A full-on run towards Tonbridge from the Ashford direction, followed by very heavy and last-minute braking as the train passed through Tonbridge on the fast lines. A memorable experience, though one which was probably fairly typical during the boat train years.

 

[PGAT]

However. From May the Watfords & Hemels become 377/5 and they won’t make the 100mph before you have to slow down for the next PSR.

I doubt this is true. What is your source for this?

 

[hexagon789]

The last 660V areas in the Waterloo approach area were only fully upgraded during the last decade, because they were waiting for the LU S stock full introduction. There were still details of the remaining power upgrade project in the CP5 enhancement plans, (ie 2014-19), back when the online documents were still being regularly updated, so around the mid 2010s.

So there are still 660V areas then, am I understanding correctly?

 

[swt_passenger]

So there are still 660V areas then, am I understanding correctly?

The last reports said it would be finished once the S Stock was the only stock in use. That was originally going to be late 2016, but I think it dragged on a bit longer. Unfortunately the public reports seemed to dry up.

I think it was mentioned somewhere in our underground sub forum that all the shared lines in the Wimbledon and Richmond areas that had SWR or Overground as well as LU had successfully been upgraded.

I added a bit to my previous post, possibly while you were writing…

 

[bramling]

The last reports said it would be finished once the S Stock was the only stock in use. That was originally going to be late 2016, but I think it dragged on a bit longer. Unfortunately the public reports seemed to dry up.

I think it was mentioned somewhere in our underground sub forum that all the shared lines in the Wimbledon and Richmond areas that had SWR or Overground as well as LU had successfully been upgraded.

I added a bit to my previous post, possibly while you were writing…

The Waterloo & City line has had its own independent substation for a few years now, that was also something which needed to happen to allow the separation of LU supplies.

No idea if NR has actually made the change though.

 

[swt_passenger]

The Waterloo & City line has had its own independent substation for a few years now, that was also something which needed to happen to allow the separation of LU supplies.

No idea if NR has actually made the change though.

Yes that’s another loose end not very well documented. I’ve seen an enhancements report written Mar 2019 written as though that was at “will be completed” status, but it looks to me as though the project info, ie “Wessex DC regeneration” was unchanged for quite a number of reports.