Mersey rail fine advice

[Anon909]

Hello, I was getting off the Mersey Way train line central, I had bought a ticket on my phone but apparently, it is just a code and it doesn't count as a valid ticket. wish I had known that sooner. the officer gave me a chance to pay and told me to go right, go into the shop and print it off, so I went right, and there were two directions, I go to the other direction thinking it was another entrance to the shop, it's towards the exit. two offices run up to me and fine me £125 is there any chance I could appeal this or not?

 

[Watershed]

What exactly are you referring to with "a code"? Did you have an e-ticket or m-ticket, or a code with which you could collect your ticket at a ticket machine or ticket office?

 

[Anon909]

What exactly are you referring to with "a code"? Did you have an e-ticket or m-ticket, or a code with which you could collect your ticket at a ticket machine or ticket office?

its was a print of ticket code but i didnt know that at the time of purchase

 

[AlterEgo]

It's really important we know the full details of the case. Please answer the following so members will all be on the same page and can understand exactly what has happened.

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • Uploading copies of any paperwork (with personal details redacted) with your post.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

 

[Anon909]

It's really important we know the full details of the case. Please answer the following so members will all be on the same page and can understand exactly what has happened.

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • Uploading copies of any paperwork (with personal details redacted) with your post.
• Be careful not to post anything incriminating or personally identifying
• We need to know what outcome(s) you would consider satisfactory

started at Birkenhead hamilton square and ended at Liverpool Central
The ticket bought was just a ticket collection code but I was unaware when I bought this on the Trainline app
the first encounter the staff member told me to print off the ticket which could be done on the right
second encounter two travel undercover agents ran to me and told me to show proof of a valid ticket I showed them the code they said it was not valid.
i had walked past the shop apparently towards the exit, however, i thought the left side would have another entrance to the shop because it had a little caveat that led towards the right side
only paperwork already provides what i have provided apart from the enforcement reference number

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

started at Birkenhead hamilton square and ended at Liverpool Central
The ticket bought was just a ticket collection code but I was unaware when I bought this on the Trainline app
the first encounter the staff member told me to print off the ticket which could be done on the right
second encounter two travel undercover agents ran to me and told me to show proof of a valid ticket I showed them the code they said it was not valid.
i had walked past the shop apparently towards the exit, however, i thought the left side would have another entrance to the shop because it had a little caveat that led towards the right side
only paperwork already provides what i have provided apart from the enforcement reference number

this is my first ever fine, or encounter with the Mersey way enforcement team

 

[methecooldude]

Birkenhead Hamilton Square does not have a ticket machine (at least, according to Trainline), that being said, I've just looked up the same journey on Trainline and it does tell you on the purchase screen that you need to collect from station

 

[Anon909]

Birkenhead Hamilton Square does not have a ticket machine (at least, according to Trainline), that being said, I've just looked up the same journey on Trainline and it does tell you on the purchase screen that you need to collect from station

i think they were more concerned with apparently me trying to leave, although i had means to pay as i had already paid and they told me to print off my ticket once i arrived at liverpool central

 

[JBuchananGB]

All Merseyrail ticket offices can issue tickets from a ToD code. No Merseyrail TVMs can do this. OP should have collected his ticket from the ticket office at Birkenhead.

 

[AlterEgo]

What is this "fine" - have you been issued a Penalty Fare? Do you have a copy of the notice? If so, post it in the thread with your personal details removed.

 

[Anon909]

What is this "fine" - have you been issued a Penalty Fare? Do you have a copy of the notice? If so, post it in the thread with your personal details removed.

 

[RPI]

Seems to me that you were given an opportunity to go and print your ticket reference, technically they could have issued a penalty fare straight away* but they let you print the tickets, when asked to do so you went past the ticket office and to the station exit?

Unless things have changed recently, a trainline reference that isn't printed gets automatically refunded, if that is still the case then you may be prosecuted for attempting to avoid your fare.

At what point did you purchase the ticket online? Was it before you boarded the train at Birkenhead?

*assuming that the ticket office was open.

 

[Anon909]

Seems to me that you were given an opportunity to go and print your ticket reference, technically they could have issued a penalty fare straight away* but they let you print the tickets, when asked to do so you went past the ticket office and to the station exit?

Unless things have changed recently, a trainline reference that isn't printed gets automatically refunded, if that is still the case then you may be prosecuted for attempting to avoid your fare.

At what point did you purchase the ticket online? Was it before you boarded the train at Birkenhead?

*assuming that the ticket office was open.

I was in a rush, but it was before I boarded the train. I wasn't intentionally going towards an exit, it seemed to me there were to shop entrances as i had no contacts in, but i can see how they suspected that

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

Thank you, everyone, for taking you time to help me by the way, I appreciate it a lot. Wish you all good luck in life.

 

[AlterEgo]

Can anyone familiar with Liverpool Central chip in here? Is it easy to miss the shop and go to another exit?

 

[Anon909]

found this on the web i entered towards the camera from where the officer is standing and just on the left is ally way which ends to stairs but from a angle it appeared to me there couldve been another entrance, yes I am stupid for thinking that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2023 ==

on the left of the camera, the reason I thought this is because it is from where the camera is, is a massive exit. I wasn't thinking there would be another one just next to it.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If you are going to appeal this you will have to come up with a very convincing reason why, when you saw a great big colourful sign saying tickets on it and a door underneath, you looked for another entrance and realistically that isn't going to be easy. There are so many unfortunate circumstances in your story - you didn't know you had to collect your ticket, you were in a rush, you didn't have your contact lenses in - that they are going to take some convincing this was a genuine mistake.

 

[L401CJF]

You say you boarded at Hamilton Square, how did you get in without a ticket? It has ticket gates in operation from start to end of service..

 

[AlterEgo]

Did they take your bank details or check your online purchasing account? This looks like a clear attempt to exit the station without showing a valid ticket because it’s not reasonable to miss that enormous shop with the enormous sign.

Merseyrail will know that some customers will habitually refund unused tickets purchased on Trainline and are entitled to request your purchase history to audit then for anomalies. So best tread carefully.

 

[L401CJF]

Did they take your bank details or check your online purchasing account? This looks like a clear attempt to exit the station without showing a valid ticket because it’s not reasonable to miss that enormous shop with the enormous sign.

Merseyrail will know that some customers will habitually refund unused tickets purchased on Trainline and are entitled to request your purchase history to audit then for anomalies. So best tread carefully.

The sinister in me wants to suggest the possibility of some sort of short faring going on here. A Birkenhead Hamilton Square to Liverpool Stations ticket would be the cheapest ticket from the Wirral Line to get out the gates in the city (Hamilton Square being the last stop before the Liverpool Stations group of LVJ, MRF, LIV and LVC).

I could well be wrong but something doesn't quite add up. Hamilton Square is gated for the full service duration, and the ticket office is staffed for the full service duration - right next to the gates. If presented a ToD at the gates there they would have been told to print them before being let through. I've never seen Hamilton Square gates open. With the exception of Conway Park, Chester, Hamilton Square and the Liverpool Stations, no other Wirral Line stations are gated.

I'm not making accusations here of course, just saying how it looks from my experience.

I might add as a regular user of Central, I don't see how you could mistake the exit for the ticket office shop either - and without my glasses on my eyesight isn't great.

 

[Egg Centric]

Merseyrail will know that some customers will habitually refund unused tickets purchased on Trainline and are entitled to request your purchase history to audit then for anomalies. So best tread carefully.

Just putting this in bold so that OP notices it. I have no doubt whatsoever about OP's integrity but there are potential future lurkers who may be lacking it who would be very well advised to pay a penalty fare issued in similar circumstances before ending up with a four figure bill.

It is absolutely not a hypothetical concern; if anything threads here seem to suggest that the ticket retailers and TOCs have too cozy a relationship with ticket histories requested and granted on var more dubious justifications than here.

 

[30907]

A little research here https://www.merseyrail.org/about-merseyrail/understanding-revenue-protection.aspx
suggests that the amount of £125 the OP has quoted (but apparently not had in writing) is not a Penalty Fare but a fixed fee in lieu of prosecution.

If you receive a letter from the Prosecution Department claiming that an offence has been committed, you may be offered an out of court settlement. The standard penalty is £60.00 for a breach of a byelaw, and £125.00 for a Railway Regulation Act 1889 section 18.2 offence.

I assume the reference is to Byelaw 18.2, failure to hand over ticket, which fits with what the OP has said.

I don't see that the OP has any chance of appealing this in the normal way, but the more hawkish members of this forum might feel that they have grounds for a technical challenge, e.g in the wording of the notice or on the website. I am not sure this would succeed without legal advice which would be expensive, though.

 

[Wallsendmag]

What exactly are you referring to with "a code"? Did you have an e-ticket or m-ticket, or a code with which you could collect your ticket at a ticket machine or ticket office?

Merseyrail is an eTicket/mTicket free zone, no TOC shold enable any flows involving Merseyrail. In fact I have a Merseyrail group set up with all stations in that I use to check no flows have been enabled inadvertantly

 

[185]

You say you boarded at Hamilton Square, how did you get in without a ticket? It has ticket gates in operation from start to end of service..

A very important point.

B'head Hamilton Square has a permanent gateline, therefore if their booking office was unable to print for reasons unknown, who let the passenger through the barriers?

The only exceptions would be a ticket bought during the journey where a passenger would deserve the fine, or the passenger came from somewhere else - ie a short fare.

 

[island]

A very important point.

B'head Hamilton Square has a permanent gateline, therefore if their booking office was unable to print for reasons unknown, who let the passenger through the barriers?

The only exceptions would be a ticket bought during the journey where a passenger would deserve the fine, or the passenger came from somewhere else - ie a short fare.

I think this is certainly a point worth having the answer to, but given the specific circumstances of the case (that the OP was told to go through and sort their ticketing issue out at the ticket office/travel shop but chose not to do so), I am not sure anything turns on it.

 

[gray1404]

Incredible. The notice is not a penalty fare notice. Merseyrail are not handing out £125 out of court settlements on the spot.

 

[JBuchananGB]

There seems to be information missing here. The OP says he was in a rush, but at that time, about 1715 on Saturday, trains from Hamilton Square to Liverpool Central are incredibly frequent. Time certainly available to purchase a ticket at the ticket office, without delaying the journey. OP seems unfamiliar with train travel to the extent that he is unaware of Ticket On Departure codes to collect tickets, yet such a frequent traveller that he has a Trainline account from which he can order a ticket. Others have remarked on the availability of barriers and ticket office facilities at Hamilton Square, and expressed surprise that the large conspicuous ticket hall at Liverpool Central could be overlooked. I feel some further clarification is needed.

 

[gray1404]

It's easy to overlook the ticket office at Liverpool Central as it's a shop selling other things and does not look like a typical ticket office.

 

[AlterEgo]

It's easy to overlook the ticket office at Liverpool Central as it's a shop selling other things and does not look like a typical ticket office.

The OP was told to turn right and go into the shop. It’s a shop with a massive sign on it saying “tickets”, I don’t think this is a line of defence!