DISPUTE WITH NORTHERN

[Looie44]

Hello, just after some advice re a NTLTIR Notice that i have received from northern as I lost my ticket on the whilst arriving at Leeds from Doncaster. The Northern guard wouldnt let me through the barrier, I explained that I had mislaid my ticket but he asked for mine and my daughters details and told me that everything would be okay and not to worry. Stupidly I thought he was collating info so gave him my details and obv now I know why. I can prove that I bought the ticket on my bank statement but is this worth pursuing as its only £19??? I feel duped into giving him my details and if I had known this then I would have gone back to the train to look for them, given that we were late for a performance then I felt that this was the best option. Do I have any grounds here, the train I took was an LNER train.

Thanks
Leo

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, just after some advice re a NTLTIR Notice that i have received from northern as I lost my ticket on the whilst arriving at Leeds from Doncaster. The Northern guard wouldnt let me through the barrier, I explained that I had mislaid my ticket but he asked for mine and my daughters details and told me that everything would be okay and not to worry. Stupidly I thought he was collating info so gave him my details and obv now I know why. I can prove that I bought the ticket on my bank statement but is this worth pursuing as its only £19??? I feel duped into giving him my details and if I had known this then I would have gone back to the train to look for them, given that we were late for a performance then I felt that this was the best option. Do I have any grounds here, the train I took was an LNER train.

Thanks
Leo

Hi Leo - what is this? "NTLTIR Notice"

Can you post a copy of what you have been issued with or any letter you have been sent with your personal details removed. This will help people advise you on the options that might be open to you.

 

[hexagon789]

Hi Leo - what is this? "NTLTIR Notice"

Can you post a copy of what you have been issued with or any letter you have been sent with your personal details removed. This will help people advise you on the options that might be open to you.

I'm guessing a 'Northern Trains Limited Ticket Irregularity Report'. I think that's what the initials stand for given previous threads and a bit of educated detective work.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Concur with @hexagon769. NTLTIR is quite possibly an acronym for Northern Trains Limited Ticket Irregularity Report (or very similar).

 

[MotCO]

Yes, a copy of your letter, suitably redacted, would be very useful. In particular, does it say what 'offence' you have committed. If it is not being able to show a ticket when requested, then you have little defence. If it is boarding a train without a ticket, then your bank statement may be helpful, but only proves you bought a ticket to somewhere for someone, not necessarily you.

Did your daughter also lose her ticket? If not, why were her details also taken?

 

[Haywain]

Hello, just after some advice re a NTLTIR Notice that i have received from northern as I lost my ticket on the whilst arriving at Leeds from Doncaster. The Northern guard wouldnt let me through the barrier, I explained that I had mislaid my ticket but he asked for mine and my daughters details and told me that everything would be okay and not to worry. Stupidly I thought he was collating info so gave him my details and obv now I know why. I can prove that I bought the ticket on my bank statement but is this worth pursuing as its only £19??? I feel duped into giving him my details and if I had known this then I would have gone back to the train to look for them, given that we were late for a performance then I felt that this was the best option. Do I have any grounds here, the train I took was an LNER train.

Thanks
Leo

Unfortunately, it your responsibility to provide a valid ticket on request and failure to do so is a strict liability criminal offence. A lost ticket does not provide a defence as you are unlikely to be accused of fare evasion, which is more serious. Northern operate the ticket barriers at Leeds and are authorised to act on behalf of other train operators in respect of ticket irregularities.

When did this happen? If it is only today, it will take some time before you receive a letter from Northern. In the meantime we may be able to provide further assistance based on the TIR you received.

 

[Looie44]

Well doesn't sound hopeful, thanks for everybody's responses



. Here is a bad copy of the letter ( sorry )

 

[AlterEgo]

You got off lightly although you probably don’t realise it. It’s an offence to fail to produce a valid ticket on request and you are liable for the fare. You should pay it as soon as possible.

Northern would be entitled to either prosecute you under the railway bylaws in the magistrates’ court or settle out of court for the fare plus an administration fee. It seems like they’re only asking for the fare due here.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You got off lightly although you probably don’t realise it. It’s an offence to fail to produce a valid ticket on request and you are liable for the fare. You should pay it as soon as possible.

Result! (under the circumstances).

Had thought that a Penalty Fare (£50 if paid promptly) plus the price of the single fare (£19.30) would have been the more likely (and most favourable) outcome.

 

[AlterEgo]

Result! (under the circumstances).

Had thought that a Penalty Fare (£50 if paid promptly) plus the price of the single fare (£19.30) would have been the more likely (and most favourable) outcome.

They travelled on LNER which isn’t a Penalty Fares operator.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

They travelled on LNER which isn’t a Penalty Fares operator.

So noted. Does that effectively limit what the Northern revenue staff (at the Leeds barriers) can actually do?

 

[yorkie]

So noted. Does that effectively limit what the Northern revenue staff (at the Leeds barriers) can actually do?

Yes; they can't issue PFs.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes; they can't issue PFs.

Would the situation have been different had the OP travelled with Northern (rather than LNER) from Doncaster to Leeds?

 

[yorkie]

Would the situation have been different had the OP travelled with Northern (rather than LNER) from Doncaster to Leeds?

Northern operate a PF scheme, so that would have been an option.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Northern operate a PF scheme, so that would have been an option.

Thanks for so clarifying.

 

[Looie44]

I'm just going to pay it, my real gripe is that I felt duped into giving my details over and not being told why. Yes maybe I should have asked but the northern member of staff even asked my daughter for hers, seems slightly worrying to question a minor. I have made a complaint but they don't seem interested either. Thanks for the input.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm just going to pay it, my real gripe is that I felt duped into giving my details over and not being told why. Yes maybe I should have asked but the northern member of staff even asked my daughter for hers, seems slightly worrying to question a minor. I have made a complaint but they don't seem interested either. Thanks for the input.

You weren’t really duped; giving your name and address to the inspector is a legal obligation in this situation and you would commit an offence by refusing to do so. There are no grounds for complaint and you were let off very lightly.

I don’t recommend making a complaint before settling the matter, because Northern are separately entitled to threaten prosecute you for the strict liability offence of failing to show a valid ticket on demand, something they do very regularly. You’ve had an exceptionally lucky escape here because this sort of thing usually ends up in a threat to summons you to the magistrates’ court. You would then be invited to settle out of court for the fare plus £100.

 

[yorkie]

Yes the regulations are heavily stacked against passengers.

I would be sure to settle the matter immediately, and separately to that make a complaint.

However I can't see the complaint getting anywhere unfortunately; the rail industry is quite unlike any other.

 

[6Gman]

Yes the regulations are heavily stacked against passengers.

I would be sure to settle the matter immediately, and separately to that make a complaint.

However I can't see the complaint getting anywhere unfortunately; the rail industry is quite unlike any other.

Surely the complaint won't get anywhere because there aren't really any grounds for complaint?

The poster lost their tickets and are now being asked to pay for replacements.

 

[island]

Surely the complaint won't get anywhere because there aren't really any grounds for complaint?

The poster lost their tickets and are now being asked to pay for replacements.

Indeed. Who is to say that the "lost" ticket wasn't used by another passenger to exit, submitted for a refund, etc.

 

[yorkie]

Surely the complaint won't get anywhere because there aren't really any grounds for complaint?

The poster lost their tickets and are now being asked to pay for replacements.

If you read the original post, it sounds like the passenger may have chosen to go back to the train to see if they could find the ticket, as they probably left it on the train.

Anyway I don't think there is anything further to discuss until/unless we hear of any further correspondence between the passenger and Northern Rail

 

[6Gman]

If you read the original post, it sounds like the passenger may have chosen to go back to the train to see if they could find the ticket, as they probably left it on the train.

Anyway I don't think there is anything further to discuss until/unless we hear of any further correspondence between the passenger and Northern Rail

I read the original post.

Doesn't alter any of the facts.

 

[spag23]

FWIW I read the original post as the RPI giving the impression that he accepted that the OP had purchased a ticket, and that he was therefore taking no further action over its loss, and she need not go back and look for it. She then gave her details, thinking it was just part of a customer survey.
Maybe the OP can confirm whether I've got this right.
I'm assuming the train had terminated here and there would have been ample time for a search before it departed.

 

[yorkie]

FWIW I read the original post as the RPI giving the impression that he accepted that the OP had purchased a ticket, and that he was therefore taking no further action over its loss, and she need not go back and look for it. She then gave her details, thinking it was just part of a customer survey.
Maybe the OP can confirm whether I've got this right.
I'm assuming the train had terminated here and there would have been ample time for a search before it departed.

Exactly this, and as stated above, the OP should pay the sum due, and once settled they can persue a complaint if they wish. A complaint is unlikely to get anywhere, though.

I read the original post.

Doesn't alter any of the facts.

I didn't say it altered the facts.

As I said above, the OP feels aggrieved because if the inspector had stated that the matter could potentially go to court, they would have gone back to look for their ticket, which they likely left on the train.

I stand by what I said above and I don't think there is anything further to discuss here until / unless the OP hears back from Northern.

 

[AlterEgo]

FWIW I read the original post as the RPI giving the impression that he accepted that the OP had purchased a ticket, and that he was therefore taking no further action over its loss, and she need not go back and look for it. She then gave her details, thinking it was just part of a customer survey.
Maybe the OP can confirm whether I've got this right.
I'm assuming the train had terminated here and there would have been ample time for a search before it departed.

Where does the OP say they thought they were being surveyed?

They weren’t being let out of the station without giving their details and whether a person has bought a ticket or not is of no relevance to whether they have shown it on demand.

 

[spag23]

Stupidly I thought he was collating info so gave him my details and obv now I know why.

The OP hasn't stated exactly what they guessed was the purpose of having their details collected. The obvious candidates may include marketing, traffic survey, customer satisfaction (!).
But the OP clearly understood it wasn't to enable an intended prosecution, because the RPI said everything was "okay" on the ticket loss issue. Without this (misleading) reassurance the OP is adamant they would have gone back to look for the ticket.