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Lumo Revenue Enforcement on Strike Day

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Western Sunset

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The officer later came back and said I had the option of leaving the train at Doncaster, which I agreed I would do. I spoke to the two other older passengers who also got off at Doncaster; they said they had witnessed some younger passengers being pressured into paying on the train.
We'll probably never know, but I wonder how many other LNER passengers bound for London, caught the Lumo service at Newcastle, apart from the three we know were ejected at Doncaster? Was there any advice from LNER staff at Newcastle, considering that their following service to London was 1.5 hours late? Indeed, did any LNER staff on the ground at Newcastle know it was running?
 
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John Palmer

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Lumo's UFN policy doesn't state that they issue the notice by email, rather that they issue a copy of such notice. A 'copy' is just that: a facsimile of another document rather than the original from which the copy is derived.

Admittedly, Lumo 'advise' that the email address they request is “one that you have access to at the time the notice is issued – you may need to show it to exit at a station” but fail to offer any explanation of why such immediate access to email is required.

If Lumo issue the original UFN to the passenger in the course of his journey then he is in possession of the document necessary for completion of that journey and exit through a barrier. In that case he doesn't need to receive an additional copy by email whilst his journey on a Lumo train is still in progress, and his ability to do so is irrelevant.

If, on the other hand, Lumo's practice is to issue the original UFN by email then (a) why refer to it as a 'copy' and (b) what is the hapless passenger without immediate access to email to do if the original will be inaccessible until after his journey on a Lumo train is at an end?

As written, Lumo's policy statement regarding the issue of UFNs appears to me either to be unworkable or to contain a completely irrelevant statement regarding immediate access to email.

What does seem clear is that a Lumo UFN, however it is issued, must state the full anytime single fare that is claimed for the journey. The OP says that at no point was this information provided in the course of travel on the Lumo train to Doncaster or subsequently at Kings Cross, either verbally or in writing. It remains to be clarified whether Lumo subsequently sent a copy of a UFN by post or email, as provided in its policy statement on UFNs. Subject to that potential complication, failure by Lumo to give the OP a notice containing the demand for a specific sum by way of payment of the fare claimed still seems to me to be a flaw fatal to any further attempt it makes to pursue the matter.

A failure to issue a UFN containing details of the fare claimed does not diminish the argument that the choice offered was between payment for a Lumo ticket or disembarkation at Doncaster, and that the OP chose the latter course. The non-issue of a UFN before the Doncaster stop lends some weight to that version of events, for, if Lumo were determined to seek payment of a fare for travel between Newcastle and Doncaster regardless of whether the OP chose to alight there, its official's appropriate course of action was to issue the requisite UFN before the OP left the train.

The Lumo official had no reason to suppose that she would once again encounter the OP at Kings Cross and thus have a second opportunity to pursue the matter. Since the alleged issue of a UFN is recorded as having taken place long after the Lumo train had arrived at Kings Cross, the inference must be that it was not until that second encounter that she decided to take advantage of the opportunity it presented to attempt the issue of a UFN, with the implication no such attempt was made in the course of the journey to Doncaster. I use the word 'attempt' as there seem to be grounds for doubting whether a UFN was ever actually issued.
 

Edsmith

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I wonder if the other two passengers who left the Lumo at Doncaster, were similarly met by the BTP at King's Cross? Stopping the Lumo at Doncaster (un-scheduled) seems a very unusual occurrence to me, entailing re-routing from the up fast to one of the platform lines.
A LNER conductor said that additional stops could only be made in an emergency, passenger taken ill etc, and not for people who have just got on the wrong train and I would have thought the same rules would apply to Lumo?
 

AdamWW

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As written, Lumo's policy statement regarding the issue of UFNs appears to me either to be unworkable or to contain a completely irrelevant statement regarding immediate access to email.

Agree fully, though I wouldn't read too much into the use of the word "copy" myself. I'd happily interpret that as meaning that Lumo has the primary record of the UFN being issued and the passenger gets a copy for their use.
 

43066

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As several queries have been raised about the timeline of events and other details, let me recap from my perspective to the best of my ability.

* I was due to depart Newcastle by LNER at 10.27. Train cancelled and it wasn't clear to me that there would be any other LNER trains on the day owing to the strike
* Next service to Kings Cross was a Lumo departure at 10.55. I boarded this train. It was busy but there were seats available
* Onboard, a Lumo revenue officer told me my ticket wasn't valid and I could pay an additional fare or leave the train at Doncaster. I was told an LNER train would follow within an hour
* Myself and two other passengers in similar circumstances alighted at Doncaster. We caught the next LNER train which arrived around half hour later (sorry, can't be precise)
* Arrived at Kings Cross (sorry, didn't look at the arrival time). The barrier on the platform I arrived on was open. However, on the other side of general concourse barriers I was stopped by BTP and the same Lumo officer I'd encountered on the earlier train. I was heading for the underground
* The Lumo officer took a photo of the emailed advice from TrainSplit which I'd been following and I gave her my name and address (I wasn't asked for email address)
* At no point was the fare Lumo wanted put to me, either verbally or in writing, either on the Lumo train or at Kings Cross
* On 30/03/2023 I received a "Reminder" that a LFN had been issued to me by an onboard Lumo Ambassador on 01/02/2023 at the time of 15:38. This must have been when I was at Kings Cross or possibly later.

Many thanks for all the advice to date. I will be appealing with a supporting letter from TrainSplit, who sold me the tickets.

Thanks for clarifying.

If you or anyone else is ever in a similar situation, it’s worth proactively approaching the guard (or whatever the Lumo equivalent is), explaining the situation, and asking if they’re happy for you to join their service. That would almost certainly have prevented the circumstances in this thread from arising.

If you wait to be discovered there’s little to differentiate you from a chancer who was hoping not to be checked.
 

Deerfold

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Thanks for clarifying.

If you or anyone else is ever in a similar situation, it’s worth proactively approaching the guard (or whatever the Lumo equivalent is), explaining the situation, and asking if they’re happy for you to join their service. That would almost certainly have prevented the circumstances in this thread from arising.

If you wait to be discovered there’s little to differentiate you from a chancer who was hoping not to be checked.
That does come with the usual problem that the average passenger doesn't know where in the 5 coach train the guard is likely to be.
 

AdamWW

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That does come with the usual problem that the average passenger doesn't know where in the 5 coach train the guard is likely to be.

I think above someone said that Lumo trains are DOO - so maybe the guard isn't even going to be standing in a doorway at station stops?
 

43066

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That does come with the usual problem that the average passenger doesn't know where in the 5 coach train the guard is likely to be.

Depending on operator they may well be visible on the platform. I’m not sure whether this applies to Lumo because, although they’re fully safety critical, they don’t dispatch.

I think above someone said that Lumo trains are DOO - so maybe the guard isn't even going to be standing in a doorway at station stops?

Then walk through and find them! Don’t just jump on and plonk yourself down with the wrong ticket waiting to be challenged.
 

AdamWW

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Then walk through and find them! Don’t just jump on and plonk yourself down with the wrong ticket waiting to be challenged.

I was responding to a suggestion that someone should find the guard and ask if it was OK to join the service.

Once you're on the train it's a bit late for that.

And in any case if you genuinely aren't aware that there is a problem with the ticket you have, you're not going to go and ask the guard if it's OK.
 

spag23

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On other threads we have seen the problem where the customer does get permission before boarding the train, only to be intercepted later, and the TOC disputing that permission was ever given. In one case the TOC even told the passenger that staff weren't authorised/trained to give this permission.
 

43066

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was responding to a suggestion that someone should find the guard and ask if it was OK to join the service.

Once you're on the train it's a bit late for that.

Okay. I’m just trying to suggest a practical approach to prevent situations like that described in the OP from arising.

Ideally find them before the train departs, but finding them afterwards is still going to be better that just plonking yourself down on the wrong train. Common sense and people skills go a long way in these situations!

And in any case if you genuinely aren't aware that there is a problem with the ticket you have, you're not going to go and ask the guard if it's OK.

If you’re on an advance ticket, and you’re not on that specific train, best advice is to go and speak to the guard first.

Or don’t - but don’t be surprised when you’re asked to buy a new ticket/told to get off/issued a penalty fare etc.
 
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Deerfold

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Okay. I’m just trying to suggest a practical approach to prevent situations line the OP from arising.

Ideally find them before the train departs, but finding them afterwards is still going to be better that just plonking yourself down on the wrong train. Common sense and people skills go a long way in these situations!
They thought they were following the advice from their retailer - and there's an argument that it should have been allowed as otherwise they would have had a wait of far longer than an hour.
 

43066

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They thought they were following the advice from their retailer - and there's an argument that it should have been allowed as otherwise they would have had a wait of far longer than an hour.

They had misunderstood the advice and, more to point, the retailer isn’t operating the train.

I’m clearly banging my head against a brick wall here!
 

ainsworth74

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I’m clearly banging my head against a brick wall here!
I suppose from your point of view you are. But then plenty of us feel the same way about you and your opinion on this matter! :lol: ;)
 

43066

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I suppose from your point of view you are. But then plenty of us feel the same way about you and your opinion on this matter! :lol: ;)

Yet I’ve managed to spend many years traversing the rail network without encountering issues :lol: (It’s actually even more important for staff to get these things right, as you can end up in big trouble if you misuse staff travel).

Prevention is better than cure and, if in doubt, asking first is a good approach to avoid these issues from arising. It is universally appreciated by the on train staff I work with.

I realise that won’t sit well with people who prefer to take the “I know my rights” approach.
 

AdamWW

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They had misunderstood the advice and, more to point, the retailer isn’t operating the train.

I’m clearly banging my head against a brick wall here!

I fully understand the point that if you have any doubt over ticket validity then the earlier you ask for permission the better.

But if someone has misunderstood advice (no matter how reasonable it may or may not be to have done so) and therefore think they are legimitately boarding a train, then they don't have that doubt and therefore would have no reason to do so.

And while it's obviously not in trainsplit's power to write the rules on ticket validity, are you suggesting that passengers shouldn't believe anything told to them by a retailer if they aren't the operator?
 

Deerfold

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They had misunderstood the advice and, more to point, the retailer isn’t operating the train.

I’m clearly banging my head against a brick wall here!
They may have misunderstood the advice.

And having done so, would see no need to follow yours.
 

MotCO

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I fully understand the point that if you have any doubt over ticket validity then the earlier you ask for permission the better.

But if someone has misunderstood advice (no matter how reasonable it may or may not be to have done so) and therefore think they are legimitately boarding a train, then they don't have that doubt and therefore would have no reason to do so.

And while it's obviously not in trainsplit's power to write the rules on ticket validity, are you suggesting that passengers shouldn't believe anything told to them by a retailer if they aren't the operator?
And don't forget, the ticket did not clearly show any restrictions. It did not say LNER services only.
* The Lumo officer took a photo of the emailed advice from TrainSplit which I'd been following and I gave her my name and address (I wasn't asked for email address)
I assume thy got your email address from the photo of the Trainsplit advice.

The officer later came back and said I had the option of leaving the train at Doncaster, which I agreed I would do. I spoke to the two other older passengers who also got off at Doncaster; they said they had witnessed some younger passengers being pressured into paying on the train.
The other option presumably was to pay for the full fare. And there was no suggestion that you still had to pay for the fare up to Doncaster if you got out at Doncaster?


Edit: There is another angle not yet suggested. If I recall correctly, Martijn Gilbert has recently left Go-Ahead for Lumo. He seemed to be a very passenger focused CEO at Reading Buses and presumably at Go-Ahead North East. Is it worth trying to contact him to try to resolve this?
 

185

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A LNER conductor said that additional stops could only be made in an emergency, passenger taken ill etc, and not for people who have just got on the wrong train and I would have thought the same rules would apply to Lumo?
I would be expecting the ORR or RSSB to be looking at how Lumo Control (TPE?) allowed a revenue-only matter, which did not require British Transport Police (as was evident at Kings X, nfa from cops), to authorise a special stop order. 25 years ago, different story - but nowadays this should be a major issue - operators really shouldn't be doing it.
 

dosxuk

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And don't forget, the ticket did not clearly show any restrictions. It did not say LNER services only.
Are you really saying that these tickets didn't specify LNER only?

train-tickets-jpg.128450
 

Bletchleyite

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The first one does, the other two are &connections tickets which can be issued for travel on other TOCs provided one section (and it can be quite small, e.g. I've had Liverpool to Birmingham Intl route "XC & Connections" when the only XC bit was New St to Intl) is on the "master" TOC.
 

TPO

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I would be expecting the ORR or RSSB to be looking at how Lumo Control (TPE?) allowed a revenue-only matter, which did not require British Transport Police (as was evident at Kings X, nfa from cops), to authorise a special stop order. 25 years ago, different story - but nowadays this should be a major issue - operators really shouldn't be doing it.

Not really an ORR or RSSB matter, neither the legislation nor the RSSB standards have that much to say on how a Control is run. The function of a Train Operator Control typically covers a lot more than just safety related issues, and if you want to understand what a Control MUST be able to do, I suggest you hop on over to the Network Rail website and have a read of the Network Code. (Clue: the tightest set of parameters of what a Control must be capable of is in Network Rail's T&Cs for getting a Track Access contract).

A special stop really isn't a safety issue if it's arranged with Network Rail running Control, as other trains effected are regulated accordingly. In this case, with so few LNER trains running, the number of trains to be impacted by an out of course stop would be much less.

The major reason out-of-course stopping is rarely done now is that such a stop will place any resulting delay minutes on the TOC/FOC doing the stopping- and that can be expensive. However as it was a strike day, much less delay consequence was likely so much easier to organize an out-of-course stop.

TPO
 

bramling

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Okay. I’m just trying to suggest a practical approach to prevent situations like that described in the OP from arising.

Ideally find them before the train departs, but finding them afterwards is still going to be better that just plonking yourself down on the wrong train. Common sense and people skills go a long way in these situations!

Even this can run into problems though.

I once had an issue boarding a (then) GNER train at York heading towards London. I had picked up a new road bike in Harrogate, and had a cycle reservation but for a later GNER service, however - being York and the generally friendly station staff found in that part of the world - the station staff insisted it would worth speaking to the guard and getting permission to board an earlier service rather than waiting on the platform for an hour. The train duly arrived, and the train manager was more than happy albeit rather nonchalant about it - “do whatever you like bikes don’t worry me”.

There was then a change of crew somewhere on the journey, and I had a load of trouble getting the bike off at Stevenage, followed by a lecture by the new train manager about how bikes are only allowed on the booked service, and “if you’d been overcarried to King’s Cross then I’d have had to charge you”.

Also rather typical of the rather variable service one came to expect when using GNER!
 

Haywain

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A special stop really isn't a safety issue if it's arranged with Network Rail running Control, as other trains effected are regulated accordingly. In this case, with so few LNER trains running, the number of trains to be impacted by an out of course stop would be much less.
What is particularly unusual about this case is that the Lumo service would normally be routed through Doncaster on the fast lines with no access to a platform, so this wasn't simply stopping out of course but being diverted into a platform for that purpose. I find it difficult to believe that a decision to do that would be taken lightly even on a strike day.
 

Rugose

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Attached is a redacted draft of my letter to Lumo's Revenue Recoveries and Prosecutions Unit (First Customer Contact Limited) requesting that they reconsider the UFN.

As the "reminder" specifies that I must pay before Tuesday 11th April - and with the Easter Bank Holidays starting tomorrow - I probably ought to email this to them today.
 

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fandroid

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Attached is a redacted draft of my letter to Lumo's Revenue Recoveries and Prosecutions Unit (First Customer Contact Limited) requesting that they reconsider the UFN.

As the "reminder" specifies that I must pay before Tuesday 11th April - and with the Easter Bank Holidays starting tomorrow - I probably ought to email this to them today.
That looks good to me. The critical issues seem to me to that you were stopped outside Kings Cross ticket gates and that you weren't issued with a UFN or even told the "outstanding" fare at any time. There are other things that Lumo need to consider, primarily its obligations to all passengers during disruption, but that can wait on their response, and can be used if that's not favourable.
 

MrJeeves

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I still don't understand the reasoning at the start of the letter...

[...] which matches the route and operator restrictions on your ticket(s) [...]

"On specified LNER trains & connections," in my view, can only be seen as LNER only, plus any connections needed to get you from the origin to the starting point of the booked portion, plus the end point of the booked portion to the destination. In this case, you can't argue the Lumo train "connected" you to your booked LNER train.

I'm not saying the OP was wrong to board the Lumo service, but I do think arguing that the ticket didn't say LNER only and that it would be inherently valid on Lumo isn't going to get them anywhere. I do recognise you later said that "[you] now see in retrospect" the restriction, though.

On the other hand, I would point out 28.2 of the NRCoT:

28.2. Where disruption prevents you from completing the journey for which your Ticket is valid and is being used, any Train Company will, where it reasonably can, provide you with alternative means of travel to your destination, or if necessary, provide overnight accommodation for you.
Lumo is a "Train Company" thus should have helped provide alternative means of travel to your destination, in this case. I would recommend mentioning this in your response.

9.4 bears no impact on this scenario since it is not a connecting train that was disrupted causing you to miss your LNER booked service.

9.4. Where you are using a Ticket valid on a specific train service or train services (such as an “advance” Ticket) and you miss a service because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty.
 

Watershed

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"On specified LNER trains & connections," in my view, can only be seen as LNER only, plus any connections needed to get you from the origin to the starting point of the booked portion, plus the end point of the booked portion to the destination. In this case, you can't argue the Lumo train "connected" you to your booked LNER train.
Such tickets can be issued for itineraries involving almost any mixture of TOCs, provided LNER is one of them. Therefore there is no real TOC restriction at all.

The complicating factor comes from the fact that the OP held a combination of tickets (whilst the Lumo service was booked to run non-stop), as well as that their first Advance was routed LNER only.
 

MrJeeves

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Such tickets can be issued for itineraries involving almost any mixture of TOCs, provided LNER is one of them. Therefore there is no real TOC restriction at all.

The complicating factor comes from the fact that the OP held a combination of tickets (whilst the Lumo service was booked to run non-stop), as well as that their first Advance was routed LNER only.
I would argue, as per my last post, the TOC restriction is that you can only used the booked service (hence the TOC for that booked service), and then any TOC for the connections either side of that booked leg. Sure, it would have a mixture of TOCs but the key point is that LNER will be one of them, and it will almost certainly be the booked service, by my understanding, and that portion of the journey hence bears the TOC restriction. I do this this is definitely a point up for debate, though.

I do agree, actually, that the splitting of tickets has likely caused an issue here, though... I didn't think of that.
 
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