First letter received, need advice

[Imessedup2986]

Hello. I would appreciate some advice on how to proceed with my case.
My friend and I first arrived at the station and could not find the exact journey we wanted on the machine, it was not showing the journey it previously showed online at home. So we printed promise to pay tickets to the correct station but the times were incorrect on these due to not being able to find the right journey on the machine. We hoped to explain this to the ticket inspector so we could pay for the correct journey/times with cash. The train arrived at the time it said it would online at home so we presumed this was the correct train and got on. We did not see any ticket inspectors on the train for the whole journey. When we got off the train we walked to the ticket station to buy tickets with cash because we had promise to pays and while waiting in line to pay for the tickets a revenue officer approached us with 2 people by his side and a third person came from behind. The man asked why we were stood in the line and we replied we are trying to exchange our promise to pays for tickets. He then said I can help you with that and asked to see our promise to pay tickets. He then took these tickets off us. He then said he will let us off this time and we can buy tickets, however, the man was right in front of us and I felt very intimidated as he was of large build and felt he was confusing me as I wasn’t aware we had done anything wrong. I said thanks to him and said the machine wasn’t working. The man then pulled us aside and raised his voice shouting you have changed your story and can no longer buy tickets, I felt very uncomfortable and intimidated and felt that he was picking on me and my friend due to our ages. Another passenger actually came over and said to the man leave them alone they are just kids and the revenue officer told him to go away several times. The officer kept asking questions quickly and speaking over me using technical terms which confused me and he wasn’t letting me speak. He said if the machine wasn’t working how do u have promise to pays and then I said no it wouldn’t take my card and my card declined. Then he said you can only use promise to pays with cash only and I said yes we have cash, the machine wouldn’t take my card. He then said that is very different to your card declining, that only happens when you have no money in the bank and the machine would display an error message only if it failed to read your card properly. he kept accusing me, interrupting and shouting and I felt scared. When I then said why can’t we buy tickets we have promise to pays and cash, he just kept saying you need to use card. He rang up the diagnostics team to see if the machine faced any error reading my card and they said it has been working fine . When he then tried to take my details I accidentally said my old address and then my name popped up and said I had refused to give details in the past which is explained in a paragraph below. When the man said this is the wrong adress I corrected him with the right one and apologised for my mistake but he shouted and accused me of fraud and giving fake details and then submitted the report and gave me a receipt. The revenue officer also took our promise to pay tickets. I’ve just received a letter asking for my side of the story and I’m very worried I’ll be prosecuted or fined.

For the previous incident I have a recording of what happened. I had a ticket and didn’t know my railcard was expired and tried to explain to the officer that it was an accident and I’m happy to buy a new ticket. He said no you’re being fined. This led to a long conversation on how I had broke the rules and then he snatched my railcard out of my hands. He asked for my details and did not say I was being fined so I was then asking why do you need my details. After a long debate and conversation regarding what had happened with him he said I had taken too long and he is not taking my details anymore. When I then said that I want to give them he just refused to take them and walked away. I recorded myself offering to give them to him but he refused to take them. I spoke to two other ticket inspectors on the same train and told them what happened and they said I’d be ok. I never received a letter regarding this however when I had the more recent incident with the revenue officer he said my name flagged on his system as refusing to give details in the past but I feel I’m ok as I have video proof for this occasion of me offering to give them to him.

What would be the next best thing to do and how should I reply to national rail please. Thank you for any help.

 

[AlterEgo]

We're going to need a lot more information, and specifics, so we can figure out what has happened and why.

Hello. I would appreciate some advice on how to proceed with my case.
My friend and I first arrived at the station

Which station?

and could not find the exact journey we wanted on the machine, it was not showing the journey it previously showed online at home.

Where were you travelling to and what was the *exact* journey you wanted to make? Which ticket *exactly* were you looking to buy? Please describe exactly *how* it wouldn't show the journey - was the screen broken? Could you not figure out how to navigate the machine?

So we printed promise to pay tickets to the correct station but the times were incorrect on these due to not being able to find the right journey on the machine. We hoped to explain this to the ticket inspector so we could pay for the correct journey/times with cash. The train arrived at the time it said it would online at home so we presumed this was the correct train and got on. We did not see any ticket inspectors on the train for the whole journey. When we got off the train we walked to the ticket station

Which station is this now?

to buy tickets with cash because we had promise to pays and while waiting in line to pay for the tickets a revenue officer approached us with 2 people by his side and a third person came from behind. The man asked why we were stood in the line and we replied we are trying to exchange our promise to pays for tickets. He then said I can help you with that and asked to see our promise to pay tickets. He then took these tickets off us. He then said he will let us off this time and we can buy tickets, however, the man was right in front of us and I felt very intimidated as he was of large build and felt he was confusing me as I wasn’t aware we had done anything wrong. I said thanks to him and said the machine wasn’t working. The man then pulled us aside and raised his voice shouting you have changed your story and can no longer buy tickets

There's a fair bit missing here. Which company did he work for? Why did he think you'd changed your story? Why did you say the machine wasn't working - was this in reference to not being able to find the journey you wanted? Or was it broken in a more fundamental way?

, I felt very uncomfortable and intimidated and felt that he was picking on me and my friend due to our ages. Another passenger actually came over and said to the man leave them alone they are just kids

This is relevant - what age are you? This will have an impact on what may or may not happen.

and the revenue officer told him to go away several times. The officer kept asking questions quickly and speaking over me using technical terms which confused me and he wasn’t letting me speak. He said if the machine wasn’t working how do u have promise to pays and then I said no it wouldn’t take my card and my card declined. Then he said you can only use promise to pays with cash only and I said yes we have cash, the machine wouldn’t take my card. He then said that is very different to your card declining, that only happens when you have no money in the bank and the machine would display an error message only if it failed to read your card properly. he kept accusing me, interrupting and shouting and I felt scared. When I then said why can’t we buy tickets we have promise to pays and cash, he just kept saying you need to use card.

OK, so, you can only use a promise to pay if the only method of payment you have is cash. It seems you had a card - did you yourself think the card ought to have worked? Northern say it's for passengers who "do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card" which is quite vague but is something we can probably work with to your advantage.

He rang up the diagnostics team to see if the machine faced any error reading my card and they said it has been working fine . When he then tried to take my details I accidentally said my old address and then my name popped up and said I had refused to give details in the past which is explained in a paragraph below. When the man said this is the wrong adress I corrected him with the right one and apologised for my mistake but he shouted and accused me of fraud and giving fake details and then submitted the report and gave me a receipt. The revenue officer also took our promise to pay tickets. I’ve just received a letter asking for my side of the story and I’m very worried I’ll be prosecuted or fined.

Please post the letter you've received with your details removed. It's very important we see exactly what it says so the best advice can be given.

For the previous incident I have a recording of what happened. I had a ticket and didn’t know my railcard was expired and tried to explain to the officer that it was an accident and I’m happy to buy a new ticket. He said no you’re being fined. This led to a long conversation on how I had broke the rules and then he snatched my railcard out of my hands. He asked for my details and did not say I was being fined so I was then asking why do you need my details. After a long debate and conversation regarding what had happened with him he said I had taken too long and he is not taking my details anymore. When I then said that I want to give them he just refused to take them and walked away. I recorded myself offering to give them to him but he refused to take them. I spoke to two other ticket inspectors on the same train and told them what happened and they said I’d be ok. I never received a letter regarding this however when I had the more recent incident with the revenue officer he said my name flagged on his system as refusing to give details in the past but I feel I’m ok as I have video proof for this occasion of me offering to give them to him.

How do they have your details on file if you never gave them? I'm confused by this.

 

[L401CJF]

OK, so, you can only use a promise to pay if the only method of payment you have is cash. It seems you had a card - did you yourself think the card ought to have worked? Northern say it's for passengers who "do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card"

Regardless whether the passenger has a debit/credit card in their possession, what right does a TOC have to force somebody to use it for payment if they wish to pay with cash instead? I may well carry a debit card around with me but doesn't mean there's any money in the account! Very strange.

 

[mikeg]

Why do I get the feeling this is an issue with pseudo compulsory reservations that caused the machine to refuse to display the journey? In any event it's a fault of the journey planner interface by the sound of it. I often struggle to get them to display all but the simplest of journeys, to the extent I wonder how 'normal' passengers are supposed to cope. They really ought to have a just sell me a damn ticket mode and it's completely indefensible that they try to prosecute passengers for their own inadequate purchasing facilities.

To the OP:. We need to know the stations and TOCs involved here in particular.

 

[WesternLancer]

Regardless whether the passenger has a debit/credit card in their possession, what right does a TOC have to force somebody to use it for payment if they wish to pay with cash instead? I may well carry a debit card around with me but doesn't mean there's any money in the account! Very strange.

Exactly my thought - the OP may have held a card, but their could many reasons why it was not possible to pay for it - eg insufficient funds in the account, or knowledge that a payment like a standing order would be paid from the account that day leaving insufficient funds and thus the passenger needing to pay by cash.

But the OP will need to set out what happened to press their case with the train company much more clearly than they have posted here. That's no great problem as people here can hopefully help the OP draft what needs to be said, though they will need to help by clarifying the info that @AlterEgo is asking.

Whilst I am in no way suggesting the OP was doing the following - is it a 'fare evasion tactic' in the eyes of some staff for some passengers to obtain a 'promise to pay' in cash but hope that their destination station has no barrier and there is no ticket check on board or at destination station, and in such scenarios thus fail to pay, but protect themselves against the accusation of seeking to evade the fare by virtue of having the promise to pay slip from the ticket machine at their point of origin?

 

[SuspectUsual]

I wonder if this is another example of TVMs making tickets unavailable for the next train once its within 5 minutes (or whatever it is) of departure

@Imessedup2986 can you remember exactly what time train you caught, and as accurately as possible what time you tried to buy a ticket for it?

 

[Imessedup2986]

We're going to need a lot more information, and specifics, so we can figure out what has happened and why.


Which station?


Where were you travelling to and what was the *exact* journey you wanted to make? Which ticket *exactly* were you looking to buy? Please describe exactly *how* it wouldn't show the journey - was the screen broken? Could you not figure out how to navigate the machine?


Which station is this now?


There's a fair bit missing here. Which company did he work for? Why did he think you'd changed your story? Why did you say the machine wasn't working - was this in reference to not being able to find the journey you wanted? Or was it broken in a more fundamental way?


This is relevant - what age are you? This will have an impact on what may or may not happen.


OK, so, you can only use a promise to pay if the only method of payment you have is cash. It seems you had a card - did you yourself think the card ought to have worked? Northern say it's for passengers who "do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card" which is quite vague but is something we can probably work with to your advantage.


Please post the letter you've received with your details removed. It's very important we Regardless whether the passenger has a debit/credit card in their possession, what right does a TOC have to force somebody to use it for payment if they wish to pay with cash instead? I may well carry a debit card around with me but doesn't mean there's any money in the account! Very

We're going to need a lot more information, and specifics, so we can figure out what has happened and why.


Which station?


Where were you travelling to and what was the *exact* journey you wanted to make? Which ticket *exactly* were you looking to buy? Please describe exactly *how* it wouldn't show the journey - was the screen broken? Could you not figure out how to navigate the machine?


Which station is this now?


There's a fair bit missing here. Which company did he work for? Why did he think you'd changed your story? Why did you say the machine wasn't working - was this in reference to not being able to find the journey you wanted? Or was it broken in a more fundamental way?


This is relevant - what age are you? This will have an impact on what may or may not happen.


OK, so, you can only use a promise to pay if the only method of payment you have is cash. It seems you had a card - did you yourself think the card ought to have worked? Northern say it's for passengers who "do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card" which is quite vague but is something we can probably work with to your advantage.


Please post the letter you've received with your details removed. It's very important we see exactly what it says so the best advice can be given.


How do they have your details on file if you never gave them? I'm confused by this.

Hi thanks for your reply
I left the stations out as I didn’t want to be too specific and accidentally say anything that may harm my case, if this is really needed I can reply again and let you know. It was just my local station to a bigger city station which I had travelled to multiple times before and knew that it had a barrier to exit.


The machine was not showing the journey we wanted to take. To be more specific the train we were to get on was not on the list, I am pretty sure we got to the station 5-10 minutes before our train but it was a while ago. The machine showed the correct station but the exact time train we were getting on was not shown on the list

We printed promise to pays at the home station we first travelled from

I’m not sure exactly what company he worked for. I believe he was a revenue officer and had other people with him and one recording with a body cam.
He thought I changed my story because of my terminology when I said my card declined, I was not very specific and very vague because I was scared and he used this to his advantage to make me question what I had just said
I said the machine wasn’t working because i couldn’t find our journey but then changed my story to it wouldn’t accept my card which was not the case. The first thing I did was print promise to pays once I couldn’t find the right journey .

I have just recently turned 18 and was 18 when this occurred.

I got promise to pay tickets because firstly I could not find the correct journey times on the machine. I did not think paying for a ticket with incorrect times would be a smart idea. I printed a promise to pay with the full intention of paying when I got on the train and saw the ticket inspector. I was well aware my destination station had barriers. Secondly all the money I had on my card had to be used for something else however I mistakenly tried proving to the revenue officer that I had money in my bank and this is most likely caught on film by the ticket officer with a body cam. Just because I had money on the card doesn’t mean I could pay for the tickets with it? I traveled with cash with the intention of paying with cash.

I will post the letter in a separate reply

I was told they have my details because of a previous incident where I refused to give them? I am not quite sure myself but when that happened the ticket inspector snatched my expired railcard from me so I presume he reported my name from that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

I wonder if this is another example of TVMs making tickets unavailable for the next train once its within 5 minutes (or whatever it is) of departure

@Imessedup2986 can you remember exactly what time train you caught, and as accurately as possible what time you tried to buy a ticket for it?

I can remember we arrived relatively close to the time of the train arriving but left plenty of time to print out promise to pays etc and look at tickets. Possibly 10 minutes roughly im unsure now

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

Exactly my thought - the OP may have held a card, but their could many reasons why it was not possible to pay for it - eg insufficient funds in the account, or knowledge that a payment like a standing order would be paid from the account that day leaving insufficient funds and thus the passenger needing to pay by cash.

But the OP will need to set out what happened to press their case with the train company much more clearly than they have posted here. That's no great problem as people here can hopefully help the OP draft what needs to be said, though they will need to help by clarifying the info that @AlterEgo is asking.

Whilst I am in no way suggesting the OP was doing the following - is it a 'fare evasion tactic' in the eyes of some staff for some passengers to obtain a 'promise to pay' in cash but hope that their destination station has no barrier and there is no ticket check on board or at destination station, and in such scenarios thus fail to pay, but protect themselves against the accusation of seeking to evade the fare by virtue of having the promise to pay slip from the ticket machine at their point of origin?

Hi, I already knew this station had a barrier and have travelled here on numerous occasions and can most likely prove this. I’m unsure if this will help my case but i thought it would be worth mentioning

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

Regardless whether the passenger has a debit/credit card in their possession, what right does a TOC have to force somebody to use it for payment if they wish to pay with cash instead? I may well carry a debit card around with me but doesn't mean there's any money in the account! Very strange.

I was told by the revenue officer that if I had a card I had no choice but to use it as my payment method

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

Here is the letter I received

 

[WesternLancer]

I was told by the revenue officer that if I had a card I had no choice but to use it as my payment method

This can not be correct in my view. If you wish to pay in cash that must be permitted. Unless other better informed members wish to correct me.

Was this Northern Trains staff or Merseyrail by any chance?
EDIT - I see from the copy you have uploaded that it is Northern you are dealing with.

remind me - did the revenue officer take away the promise to pay slips? (IE you no longer have them as evidence/proof that you got them).


You need to start drafting your reply to them probably needs to start along the following lines (assuming all true):

Dear Sir/Madam

On x date I travelled from A to B.

I arrived at my departure station in enough time to purchase the ticket I wished to buy, and I was intending to pay with cash as there were insufficient funds in my bank account to buy my ticket. The ticket I sought to buy did not seem to be available from the ticket machine, which made things more difficult. I obtained a 'promise to pay' slip from the ticket machine. On arrival at B I went to the ticket sales point with the intention of showing the Promise to Pay slip and paying my fare in cash.

Whilst in the queue I was spoken to by a member of your staff. On establishing that I had a bank account /bank card, and despite me stating that I was unable to use it, he insisted that I was not permitted to pay with cash and took away the Promise to Pay.


You can continue with further points you wish to make, then may be post it up for people to check or give you further advice.

 

[Imessedup2986]

This can not be correct in my view. If you wish to pay in cash that must be permitted. Unless other better informed members wish to correct me.

Was this Northern Trains staff or Merseyrail by any chance?
EDIT - I see from the copy you have uploaded that it is Northern you are dealing with.

remind me - did the revenue officer take away the promise to pay slips? (IE you no longer have them as evidence/proof that you got them).


You need to start drafting your reply to them probably needs to start along the following lines (assuming all true):

Dear Sir/Madam

On x date I travelled from A to B.

I arrived at my departure station in enough time to purchase the ticket I wished to buy, and I was intending to pay with cash as there were insufficient funds in my bank account to buy my ticket. The ticket I sought to buy did not seem to be available from the ticket machine, which made things more difficult. I obtained a 'promise to pay' slip from the ticket machine. On arrival at B I went to the ticket sales point with the intention of showing the Promise to Pay slip and paying my fare in cash.

Whilst in the queue I was spoken to by a member of your staff. On establishing that I had a bank account /bank card, and despite me stating that I was unable to use it, he insisted that I was not permitted to pay with cash and took away the Promise to Pay.


You can continue with further points you wish to make, then may be post it up for people to check or give you further advice.

Hi, thank you so much for the help however I told the revenue officer I had money in my bank and I believe this was recorded on a bodycam. Even though the money was for something else. What would be the next best thing to say?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi, thank you so much for the help however I told the revenue officer I had money in my bank and I believe this was recorded on a bodycam. Even though the money was for something else. ( I said this because I thought the revenue officer was fining me because I couldn’t pay). What would be the next best thing to say?

Well, it's not for them to dictate how you pay frankly, and their Promise to Pay facility is precisely for people who wish to pay by cash (even tho they make it difficult to work that out if you are a passenger!), it's not for some member of railway staff to be looking into your private bank account and financial matters after all, in my view.

I'd say something like 'I was unable to pay for my ticket with funds in my bank account because I knew the funds would be withdrawn at some point during that day due to existing financial commitments'

What you need to remember is to keep what you write as brief and clear as possible as busy staff won't bother to read lots of text. And if they then reply to you not accepting what you say then you can write back to them again with more info if that is required. My instinct is that you should focus on having good reason to pay in cash but their Revenue staff behaved unreasonably by preventing you from doing so when you were following the correct process to pay by cash.

 

[furlong]

It's quite simple.

You are allowed a free choice of payment method. (That's the bit some staff don't like.) Explaining why you chose to use cash is unnecessary but should cause no harm. There were no facilities to accept cash at your original station - is that correct? Meeting the inspector was the first opportunity you had to pay for your ticket in cash and you offered to do so - is that also correct? The inspector refused to accept your payment and took your details instead. The fare is still outstanding and you remain willing to pay it.

Everything else just adds confusion. You weren't given a Penalty Fare so the Promise to Pay thing is by now irrelevant, though having it supports your argument so ought to be mentioned. For all the talk about the card, to make progress they would have to prove you intended NOT to pay your fare by any means at some point in time and that seems pretty difficult when you had cash available and offered it.

 

[najaB]

Whilst I am in no way suggesting the OP was doing the following - is it a 'fare evasion tactic' in the eyes of some staff for some passengers to obtain a 'promise to pay' in cash but hope that their destination station has no barrier and there is no ticket check on board or at destination station, and in such scenarios thus fail to pay, but protect themselves against the accusation of seeking to evade the fare by virtue of having the promise to pay slip from the ticket machine at their point of origin?

Yes, it is. Basically an adaptation of "pay when challenged". This is what the TOC may suspect is happening in this case.

I was told by the revenue officer that if I had a card I had no choice but to use it as my payment method

This is simply not correct. As others have pointed out above, you may well have a card but have a reasonable reason to not want to use it.

Everything else just adds confusion. You weren't given a Penalty Fare so the Promise to Pay thing is by now irrelevant, though having it supports your argument so ought to be mentioned. For all the talk about the card, to make progress they would have to prove you intended NOT to pay your fare by any means at some point in time and that seems pretty difficult when you had cash available and offered it.

Agreed. A Byelaw 18 prosecution isn't possible since the OP obtained promise to pay, which authorised them to board the train, so the TOC has to prove intent. The fact that the OP had the cash available to pay but it was declined by the RPI means that will be a very hard case to make.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi, thank you so much for the help however I told the revenue officer I had money in my bank and I believe this was recorded on a bodycam. Even though the money was for something else. What would be the next best thing to say?

This wasn’t really a bad thing to say so don’t worry about it. There’s nothing to suggest that Northern can *demand* you pay by card, although if you said it declined or didn’t work this works in your favour.

You had cash, obtained a Promise to Pay, and offered payment for the journey. I don’t see how Northern can make a case of this, given what you’ve told us.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You had cash, obtained a Promise to Pay, and offered payment for the journey. I don’t see how Northern can make a case of this, given what you’ve told us.

OP reports, in post #1, that the 'Promise to Pay' coupons were taken from them (i.e. from the OP and their friend) by a revenue officer.

Will this (possible lack of proof?) now be problematic?

 

[AlterEgo]

OP reports, in post #1, that the 'Promise to Pay' coupons were taken from them (i.e. from the OP and their friend) by a revenue officer.

Will this (possible lack of proof?) now be problematic?

You’d hope it was recorded on bodycam. Maybe worth putting in a request to have that footage under the relevant data protection legislation? Not my area of specialism though.

 

[spag23]

I recorded myself offering to give them to him but he refused to take them.

You’d hope it was recorded on bodycam

I know the first quote relates to a previous incident, but can we take it that the OP (unfortunately) didn't record the recent encounter? It would of course be better to hold your own footage, rather than having to depend on any RPI bodycam. In fact videoing, or at least audio recording, any significant staff encounter - be it a challenge or a (later refuted) travel permission - may strike many customers as a good plan.

 

[Imessedup2986]

I’m going to send my reply to the letter tomorrow. Thank you all for your help, I’ll provide an update on whatever I get back. If there is anything in particular I should try to include in my reply please let me know

 

[WesternLancer]

I’m going to send my reply to the letter tomorrow. Thank you all for your help, I’ll provide an update on whatever I get back. If there is anything in particular I should try to include in my reply please let me know

You could post your draft up here for comment before you send it if that would help (leave out details you want to remain anonymous). I think it may help you get the outcome you are seeking if you let people have a look at what you are intending to say - but of course if you would rather not that's fine - you can still get advice here if needed depending on the reply Northern send you when you have written to them.

Basically it needs end up with along these lines:
'I needed to pay in cash, the revenue officer prevented me form doing that even though I had the correct Promise to Pay slip. I had no intention to evade the fare and I would like to pay the fare I was seeking to buy which I believe is [insert name of ticket eg Off Peak Single] between station A and station B]'

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m going to send my reply to the letter tomorrow. Thank you all for your help, I’ll provide an update on whatever I get back. If there is anything in particular I should try to include in my reply please let me know

Please post a draft before you send it because how you reply is important.

 

[scrapy]

You have the right in your reply, to request that Northern allow you to view the footage taken of you on bodycam under GDPR. This may clarify anything you cannot quite remember and allow you to ask advice on anything technical that was said.

I would keep your reply brief. Simply state that you intended to pay with cash. Whilst you had a card on you this was not your intended method of payment and you didn't have sufficient funds.

Explain that as per Northerns policy you obtained a promise to pay notice and presented this to the revenue officer. Explain that this was your first opportunity to pay with cash as you had not seen a conductor. You offered cash along with the promise to pay notice.

I don't see that the revenue officer could reasonably suspect you of being in breach of any bylaws here as you had a promise to pay. Therefore the revenue officer had no justicification for requiring your details. Therefore I'm not sure you have actually committed any offence by giving incorrect ones. I would offer to pay the fare due if it's still outstanding.

 

[najaB]

I don't see that the revenue officer could reasonably suspect you of being in breach of any bylaws here as you had a promise to pay. Therefore the revenue officer had no justicification for requiring your details. Therefore I'm not sure you have actually committed any offence by giving incorrect ones.

This is a side matter that isn't of direct import to the OP's case but, AIUI, giving false details was an offence, even if the RPI wasn't strictly entitled to request them.

 

[scrapy]

This is a side matter that isn't of direct import to the OP's case but, AIUI, giving false details was an offence, even if the RPI wasn't strictly entitled to request them.

There isn't actually an offence of giving false details under railway bylaws, if you give false details it's effectively treated the same as giving no details but the court can see the false details as an agrivating factor. There may be other laws you break (could it be considered misrepresentation?) but not railway bylaws.

It would probably be argued by Northern that giving false details is attempting to avoid payment due and is a RORA offence, however given the OP is attempting to pay with cash.

 

[fandroid]

It would probably be argued by Northern that giving false details is attempting to avoid payment due and is a RORA offence, however given the OP is attempting to pay with cash.

That's a good point, but I can see Northern being immune to the legal niceties, and just regarding it as suspicious behaviour which justifies them bulldozing the OP into paying more than they should.

The OP's original post suggests that they were subjected to a form of semi-aggressive behaviour which was probably designed to bully a confession out of fare-dodgers, but took no account of how inducing confusion in most passengers could result in them literally being confused. We've all been there when flustered and on reflection have known exactly what we should have said but failed to do so due to the pressurised situation.

 

[najaB]

There may be other laws you break (could it be considered misrepresentation?) but not railway bylaws.

The Regulation of Railways Act (1889) S5.3(c) would be a good place to start.

 

[island]

You have the right in your reply, to request that Northern allow you to view the footage taken of you on bodycam under GDPR. This may clarify anything you cannot quite remember and allow you to ask advice on anything technical that was said.

Whilst this is technically true, it is unlikely to be of any real assistance. Not all body cams are active, not all record audio, and the deadline for Northern to send a copy of any data held is longer than the deadline to respond to the letter.

 

[Cowley]

I’m going to send my reply to the letter tomorrow. Thank you all for your help, I’ll provide an update on whatever I get back. If there is anything in particular I should try to include in my reply please let me know

So that we don’t start straying too far from your particular issue @Imessedup2986, we’ll temporarily lock the thread and if you are able to update us when you hear back you can use the report function below to contact us.

Thanks everyone