Shortage of buses to replace trains

[Ken H]

There is another thread about rail staff not wanting to work saturdays because of anti-social behaviour, often fuelled by drinking.
A coach driver wont be happy with a rowdy bus full of passengers.

And more and more people want to spend weekends with their mates or families who work m-f 9-5. Not be stooging round the country driving a coach.

 

[Krokodil]

A coach driver wont be happy with a rowdy bus full of passengers.

One of our drivers drove coaches previously. She used to refuse to drive Man City fans (not a tribal thing, apparently they were just more trouble than the others).

 

[Goldfish62]

The TOC gives a timetable and says 'we want this covering with buses that meet this spec'.

And the timetables are often unrealistic. I don't know why it seems to be deemed acceptable for train planners to write bus schedules when it clearly wouldn't be acceptable the other way around.

 

[The Planner]

And the timetables are often unrealistic. I don't know why it seems to be deemed acceptable for train planners to write bus schedules when it clearly wouldn't be acceptable the other way around.

NR dont, the running times are provided by the TOCs and bid by them, the TOC train planners are just the middle men.

 

[Goldfish62]

The issue, in part, comes from the travel solutions style companies bidding in low budgets so that they can get the contract and then when they win the contract, think 'oh poop, we can't get buses for that budget anymore'. The old contracts under franchising were significantly higher than the new contracts being provided now under management contracts. I know that for a like for like duty, comparing the old contract 2 years ago with one travel solutions firm to a new contract with a different travel solutions firm (same line, same block, same trips), the pay has more than halved. Almost overnight, halved.

Absolutely spot on. All this "National bus driver shortage" that has only just manifested itself despite the real shortage having been much longer term, is just a smokescreen to enable the railways to shift blame from themselves. As per usual.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

NR dont, the running times are provided by the TOCs and bid by them, the TOC train planners are just the middle men.

So who is providing the running times? I know in at least many cases it's not the bus operators.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

Most of the parent companies of the train operators have their own travel solutions companies, basically giving themselves the contracts to run the rail replacement buses.
Abellio has a travel solutions style company who sort buses for EMR, Greater Anglia, LNWR/WMR and TFW.
Arriva Road Transport sorts Cross Country, Grand Central and Northern.
First now have First Travel Solutions who do provide coaches for Avanti, GWR, Hull Trains, Lumo, TPE and South Western Railway. As they are now a travel solutions company though, they also do a lot of events and worker buses. I do believe that First now also do C2C (as Ensign Bus had the contract but now First has bought them out)
GoAhead does still have their rail replacement side who sort all the buses for the GTR contract as well as South Eastern.
Stagecoach sort buses for LNER and soon to be Chiltern.

GTR and Southeastern regularly retender their rail replacement contracts. GoAhead London happens to be the current contractor for both, having just been re-awarded the latest SE contract. The GTR rail replacement contract is currently out to tender.

 

[zwk500]

So who is providing the running times? I know in at least many cases it's not the bus operators.

It's an interesting question, because in Bplan there is a generic 'BUS' set of timings and slowly different TOCs have been getting their own SRTs added in (not all have them yet).

 

[The Planner]

So who is providing the running times? I know in at least many cases it's not the bus operators

It's an interesting question, because in Bplan there is a generic 'BUS' set of timings and slowly different TOCs have been getting their own SRTs added in (not all have them yet).

The TOCs provide them based off their RRB teams. NR input them.

 

[Clarence Yard]

In my experience the timings come from many sources. The bus company themselves, the company who arranges the bus provision or the TOC, based on their own efforts at timing. In olden days it used to be a man in a Viva Van who was instructed not to go above 30mph! I have known one planner get his preserved bus out to do the timings.

The filter of a middle man between the actual bus company and the railway planners is, in my view, a regrettable one because any local company really knows the traffic conditions. When I was planning replacement services, their ability to say, no, you need to allow for the Sunday Market at X or a sports event at Y was invaluable.

As an aside, the only thing that used to infuriate me was many of the good local firms were so rubbish at billing. How they stayed solvent or paid their drivers beat me. I had to threaten one that I would send my finance team in to do his billing if he didn’t sort it out himself! He was that good for us, I didn’t want him to go under.

If I was doing it now, I would have less choice of operator in that part of the country and I would probably be forced to use the middle men too.

 

[bramling]

If no replacement buses can be sourced then yes, engineering works should, and in fact must be postponed. It is not acceptable to have no alternative transport whatsoever and frankly, why should a fare paying passenger care what problems cancelling works cause to Network Rail?

The trouble with that is the cost of postponing engineering work is astronomical. Plus there’s the issue that the work then doesn’t get done, which can lead to problems in itself.

 

[Goldfish62]

The filter of a middle man between the actual bus company and the railway planners is, in my view, a regrettable one because any local company really knows the traffic conditions. When I was planning replacement services, their ability to say, no, you need to allow for the Sunday Market at X or a sports event at Y was invaluable.

Indeed. The recent Bracknell to Reading replacement, which ran Mon-Fri had flat running time throughout the day, which is patently absurd to anyone who knows the traffic conditions in the area. The result was that buses were regularly missing the connecting trains at Bracknell.

I've been on several rail replacement journeys recently with no abnormal traffic conditions, but still inadequate running time. This has either resulted in the driver giving a good, safe and comfortable drive, but running late, or attempting to keep to time by driving recklessly.

All that causes stress for the driver and does nothing to encourage working on such jobs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

When was it when rail replacement buses first were used by railway companies?

 

[Pinus contorta]

When was it when rail replacement buses first were used by railway companies?

The British Transport Commission will have inherited buses from the big four at part of the Transport Act I think. I would suggest there will have been some activity. But not on the large scale that there is nowadays.

 

[Ken H]

The British Transport Commission will have inherited buses from the big four at part of the Transport Act I think. I would suggest there will have been some activity. But not on the large scale that there is nowadays.

There are pics of West Yorkshire Road Car buses doing replacement buses with lodekkas. So it was certainly a thing in the 60's. I certainly remember replacement buses in the 70's. But then, I got a Leeds - York train (a Trans Pennine unit BTW) that went via Castleford. So diversions were a thing back then. Maybe signing routes was less of a thing back then.
After the Settle Junction freight train derailment 2-5-1979, the line from Long Preston to Giggleswick was closed for some time - they plain lined the junction for Hellifield - Settle Station trains. There was a LP - Gigg replacement coach put on. Spent most of the time sitting in one of the station car parks! Those who remember railwoman Monica - she was in charge of the bus.
Then they put in a single lead junction - it was a double junction before.

 

[Edsmith]

Absolutely spot on. All this "National bus driver shortage" that has only just manifested itself despite the real shortage having been much longer term, is just a smokescreen to enable the railways to shift blame from themselves. As per usual.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

Whilst there has been a bus driver shortage to varying degrees for quite sometime it has undoubtedly got a lot worse post pandemic.

What blame are 'the railways' trying to shift from themselves? I've criticised the railway industry for many things but I don't see how they can reasonably be blamed for bus driver shortages.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

NR dont, the running times are provided by the TOCs and bid by them, the TOC train planners are just the middle men.

In fairness running times generally seem to be quite appropriate.

 

[43066]

What blame are 'the railways' trying to shift from themselves? I've criticised the railway industry for many things but I don't see how they can reasonably be blamed for bus driver shortages.

I think the point being made up thread is that the buses and drivers would be available if the price was right, but TOCs are no longer able to pay competitive rates under NRCs. It’s probably down to the DfT rather than “the railways”, but equally it’s disingenuous to blame it on a shortage of bus drivers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

This is not actually true in London, where a substantial training programme has been obviously in hand over the last 12 months. We are particularly aware as one of their regular training "runs" is the main road near our house, where we pretty much see one or more in progress, with specially painted older buses, every morning.

This doesn’t tell you anything unless you also know how many drivers are leaving the industry. It could be that they’re training at maximum capacity, yet total numbers are falling.

 

[Edsmith]

I think the point being made up thread is that the buses and drivers would be available if the price was right, but TOCs are no longer able to pay competitive rates under NRCs. It’s probably down to the DfT rather than “the railways”, but equally it’s disingenuous to blame it on a shortage of bus drivers.

Well it's not necessarily anybodies fault, a pandemic that nobody could have predicted has largely caused it.

 

[43066]

Well it's not necessarily anybodies fault, a pandemic that nobody could have predicted has largely caused it.

Caused what?

As above the shortage has been long-standing, it’s only more recently that the issues on the railway have been apparent. This appears to be because the government aren’t allowing TOCs to pay the necessary amount to hire buses.

Blaming it on Covid/bus driver shortage/“the railways”, or saying “it’s not necessarily anybodies’ fault”, suits them perfectly.

 

[geoffk]

In the long run it might become necessary to adopt more expensive infrastructure solutions that would reduce the amount of future disruption from maintenance work.

But that would take decades to have any real impact.

You mean like single-line working?

 

[Edsmith]

Caused what?

As above the shortage has been long-standing, it’s only more recently that the issues on the railway have been apparent. This appears to be because the government aren’t allowing TOCs to pay the necessary amount to hire buses.

Blaming it on Covid/bus driver shortage/“the railways”, or saying “it’s not necessarily anybodies’ fault”, suits them perfectly.

Without going round in circles, a lot of bus and coach drivers left the job because of the pandemic and any newcomers couldn't be tested. Add to that the driver CPC and the fact that supermarkets are crying out for home delivery drivers we are where we are.

 

[43066]

Without going round in circles, a lot of bus and coach drivers left the job because of the pandemic and any newcomers couldn't be tested. Add to that the driver CPC and the fact that supermarkets are crying out for home delivery drivers we are where we are.

Which is nothing to do with:

The old contracts under franchising were significantly higher than the new contracts being provided now under management contracts. I know that for a like for like duty, comparing the old contract 2 years ago with one travel solutions firm to a new contract with a different travel solutions firm (same line, same block, same trips), the pay has more than halved. Almost overnight, halved.

 

[Edsmith]

Which is nothing to do with:

That's one person's experience.

 

[Runningaround]

Prices have come down a bit but £300 plus is still quoted by many.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==


Not much the railway industry can do about bus driver shortages.

They could cut down on demand through by reducing cancellations due to clapped out trains and employ enough staff to run them to ease the need for RRB.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==


Ticket acceptance on local buses may help in some cases but it often seems to be a case of make your own arrangements, get a receipt for any taxis etc and we'll reimburse you.

How about asking staff to jump on the RRB with the passengers or asking them to use their own cars, thus the taxis won't be overbooked or solely working the very lucrative job of ferrying them around stations. Some weekends the local taxi companies do nothing else and anyone wanting one at short notice is basically stuffed.

 

[The Planner]

You mean like single-line working?

No one likes the risk of adjacent line open (ALO)

 

[HSTEd]

You mean like single-line working?

In some places, single line working with fences/walls between adjacent lines (so that they are seperate for safety purposes) and other stuff like that.

But also more extreme solutions such as considering slab track or rigid overhead conductor bar.
Traditionally they have been considered too expensive most of the time because of maintenance savings not making up the extra capital cost. The former is considered to only really pay off at traffic levels above that of the WCML.

But I could certainly see the improvement in availability becoming attractive if costs of disruption and mitigating it keep climbing.

 

[Runningaround]

I work for a local bus company in the East Midlands who have in the past done rail replacement work but do not anymore.

After covid driver shortages meant that each day we were cancelling lots of services. These have now eased thanks to recruitment, but we are still not where we want to be and rely on people doing overtime. This gets worse at weekends, which is also when engineering work happens.

Another problem is keeping buses on the road due to struggles obtaining spare parts when buses break down. We are currently cancelling buses every day due to broken buses sitting in the depot awaiting spare parts from suppliers

If we did rail replacement work we would be committing drivers and buses and then potentially leaving our own passengers by the side of the road when services don't run.

If the money for rail work was amazing we might still go for it but profits are marginal at best. One TOC wanted to put us on standby all weekend with no guarantee of how much work and money we would get. Why would we take this when we can run our own services and know they will turn a good pr

ToCs are competing for limited drivers and buses but their bids are uncompetitive both in terms of money and conditions offered. I'm not surprising that no buses are them sourced for passengers.

Its interesting that one well known bus operator in North and Mid Wales started, their most lucrative operations were RRB this allowed them to expand into general bus service operations taking the contracts of a national bus operator. Today on planned engineering works the RRB coach operators tend to be from the West Midlands or North East Wales with few from the above, who tends to be only hired for emergencies. You wonder if RRB isn't as lucrative or worth the hassle anymore.

 

[43066]

That's one person's experience.

Also echoed by at least one member with long experience of the bus industry.

The RRB budgets under NRCs are (AFAIK) not publicly available, but I’m willing to believe they’ve been substantially reduced, indeed it would be odd if they hadn’t been; that’s entirely consistent with the government’s approach to the wider railway industry.

 

[zwk500]

In some places, single line working with fences/walls between adjacent lines (so that they are seperate for safety purposes) and other stuff like that.

But also more extreme solutions such as considering slab track or rigid overhead conductor bar.
Traditionally they have been considered too expensive most of the time because of maintenance savings not making up the extra capital cost. The former is considered to only really pay off at traffic levels above that of the WCML.

But I could certainly see the improvement in availability becoming attractive if costs of disruption and mitigating it keep climbing.

I could certainly see the powers that be being interested in Slab track for something like the WCML, although the cost of installing it would be eyewatering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Also echoed by at least one member with long experience of the bus industry.

The RRB budgets under NRCs are (AFAIK) not publicly available, but I’m willing to believe they’ve been substantially reduced; that’s entirely consistent with the government’s approach to the wider railway industry.

Whereas because the railway now needs fully accessible vehicles, those budgets need to be increased, because any old junk from the back of the yard* will no longer do.

* I once had a beautifully restored classic Duple bodied coach on an RRB to Milton Keynes Central, though sadly not so well maintained as shortly after dropping me off it dumped its coolant all over the road.

 

[Edsmith]

Also echoed by at least one member with long experience of the bus industry.

The RRB budgets under NRCs are (AFAIK) not publicly available, but I’m willing to believe they’ve been substantially reduced, indeed it would be odd if they hadn’t been; that’s entirely consistent with the government’s approach to the wider railway industry.

Maybe but if rates were massively increased it's not going to solve the problem immediately if drivers with the appropriate licence aren't available anymore.

 

[43066]

Whereas because the railway now needs fully accessible vehicles, those budgets need to be increased, because any old junk from the back of the yard* will no longer do.

* I once had a beautifully restored classic Duple bodied coach on an RRB to Milton Keynes Central, though sadly not so well maintained as shortly after dropping me off it dumped its coolant all over the road.

Agreed.

Maybe but if rates were massively increased it's not going to solve the problem immediately if drivers with the appropriate licence aren't available anymore.

If only we had a more honest government, perhaps then I’d be more prepared to take the excuses being trotted out at face value .

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

* I once had a beautifully restored classic Duple bodied coach on an RRB to Milton Keynes Central, though sadly not so well maintained as shortly after dropping me off it dumped its coolant all over the road.

On a slight tangent - I assume there is (or was pre PRM requirements) scope for bus enthusiasts/groups to hire out their “classic” vehicles to cover their costs, in a similar manner to diesel locomotive ownership groups.