Speeding Fine

[zwk500]

The council have an absolute positions - 'its safer' - without seeming to make any assesment of the level of 'safer' nor the cost involved (other than the signage).
See the mad blanket applications of 20mph limits wanted (and got in some places).

There are many, many studies that prove 20 mph is demonstrably safer in urban areas.

 

[Meerkat]

When they drive really close behind you, and you are able to view them clearly through your rear view mirror, it’s sometimes quite fun to be able to see the annoyed look in their faces. I live in a village situated on a main road with a 30mph limit through the village, then there is a short stretch of 50mph road before the next village with a 30mph limit. I always slow right down to 30mph before entering each village and Often see it really annoying some drivers who are following me. I wouldn’t want a speeding fine, but it wouldn’t look good if someone living in the villages was caught speeding, especially as the Parish Councils regularly discuss the issues of traffic speeding through the villages.

Be careful that you don't become as unsafe as those you are looking at. One chap was so engrossed at enjoying in the mirror how annoyed I looked at his pootling along below the speed limit that he drove into a protruding broken branch and exploded his wing mirror all over the road. He didn't look in the mirror to see how I reacted to that!

If the road is open in front of me I tend to let aggressive drivers pass, would rather they had their accident elsewhere not involving me.

The really odd (and infuriating) drivers are those who do 40mph.....everywhere. They accumulate big hold ups behind them on the country roads and then sail through the village 30 limits without slowing down. I've followed one bloke who set off a camera doing that, and an old dear who got pulled over by a speed trap - doing 40 in a 30 and not noticing the bloke in flourescent yellow holding a speed gun doesn't say a lot for judgment and attention!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Apr 2023 ==

There are many, many studies that prove 20 mph is demonstrably safer in urban areas.

How much safer and on what roads? In a housing estate or past a school sure, but on a main road through a town is it safer enough to justify the cost?
Its the blanket application I don't like. 20 is REALLY slow when the road is clear, and quite difficult to maintain.

 

[zwk500]

The really odd (and infuriating) drivers are those who do 40mph.....everywhere. They accumulate big hold ups behind them on the country roads and then sail through the village 30 limits without slowing down. I've followed one bloke who set off a camera doing that, and an old dear who got pulled over by a speed trap - doing 40 in a 30 and not noticing the bloke in flourescent yellow holding a speed gun doesn't say a lot for judgment and attention!

100% agree with this. Also the people who drive in Lane 2/3 of the Motorway at 65mph regardless of traffic conditions. Clearly paying so little attention that should anything happen they'd use up all their braking distance getting over the shock of being jolted out of their daydream.

How much safer and on what roads? In a housing estate or past a school sure, but on a main road through a town is it safer enough to justify the cost?
Its the blanket application I don't like. 20 is REALLY slow when the road is clear, and quite difficult to maintain.

https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/drivers/20-mph-zone-factsheet.pdf

A recent review identified the studies which had produced the most reliable modern estimates. The results from one of these studies is presented in figure 1, which shows a fatality risk of 1.5% at 20 mph versus 8% at 30 mph.

On any road where pedestrians are likely to cross the street I would say 20mph is justified unless there are specific measure taken to restrict pedestrians to identified crossings. A fatality risk 6x lower for a 1.5x decrease in speed is clearly good justification.
Given the need to stop for junctions and traffic lights, how often are you actually averaging more than 20mph in a town? If everybody slowed down to 20 you'd probably have the same average speed as there'd be less need to stop at junctions and crossings because there'd be more gaps for traffic to filter/merge and pedestrians to cross between.

'I struggle to stick to 20' is, to me, indicative of Lazy driving. You can lift your right foot.

 

[AlterEgo]

I live in London and there are a mishmash of 20 and 30 limits near me. It’s not hard to stick to 20, you just need to stop accelerating. My car does it in third gear with no problem. 20 is better for the environment and I’m far less likely to kill someone. I’m okay with it.

 

[Lucan]

20 is better for the environment

Not in the case of an internal combustion engined car.

There are many, many studies that prove 20 mph is demonstrably safer in urban areas.

No doubt, but it depends on how you define an urban area. I live in a rural area and there are villages near here where even 10mph is more than enough (but have 30mph limits). However other places have 20 limits which are not justifiable and are not urban. The speed limit locations seem to have been made on a whim, and where the limit is illogical it devalues the authority of limits in general in the eyes of drivers, like crying wolf.

For example a few miles from me there is a 20mph limit on a 1/2 mile stretch of a bypass (of Caldicot) which has light traffic, has no properties opening onto it, and has a pedestrian crossing at each end : see picture below, the houses on the right BTW are accessed from an estate road on their far side on which a 20 limit is entirely sensible.

 

[AlterEgo]

Not in the case of an internal combustion engined car.

It is. It’s much quieter for a start and that’s before any pettifogging over whether the CO2 emissions are any different. You’ll emit fewer particulates doing a smooth 20 as opposed to repeatedly accelerating in urban areas to reach 30.

 

[computerSaysNo]

For example a few miles from me there is a 20mph limit on a 1/2 mile stretch of a bypass (of Caldicot) which has light traffic, has no properties opening onto it, and has a pedestrian crossing at each end : see picture below, the houses on the right BTW are accessed from an estate road on their far side on which a 20 limit is entirely sensible.

It looks like parking is permitted on both sides of that road; if there were cars parked down both sides and a pedestrian was to try to cross between them, it may be difficult to see them until the last second. I would say this is justification for a 20 limit.
The road also looks to be a bit narrow for a 30 limit. With double yellow lines on each side though I'd say, on balance, 30 is more appropriate.
I'm assuming there's not a school or similar just behind the camera or just round the corner in which case the stretch is probably too short for an increase.

 

[Cowley]

For example a few miles from me there is a 20mph limit on a 1/2 mile stretch of a bypass (of Caldicot) which has light traffic, has no properties opening onto it, and has a pedestrian crossing at each end : see picture below,

I mean it might be called a bypass, but it’s not an out of town one that completely avoids built up areas. It just takes traffic away from the town centre from what I can see?

the houses on the right BTW are accessed from an estate road on their far side on which a 20 limit is entirely sensible.

View attachment 132357

Over the fence to the left is Durand Primary School. That may be the reason for the 20mph limit, perhaps to make it safer for young children walking to and from school.

 

[MotCO]

The 'worst' 20mph zone I know is this one near Raynes Park. Previously a 40mph dual carriageway, with no housing, few, if any pedestrians on a footpath well away from the carriageway, and no reason for a 20mph zone.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

(Picture shows the A298 Bushey Road, Raynes Park.)

 

[maniacmartin]

A few years ago I attended to attend a speed awareness course for doing 36 in a 30 at 2am. The limit had was 40 until just before the camera was and I missed the 30 sign. The course was attended by a wide variety of ages, and it was made clear that as long as we stayed until the end and did not get a mobile phone out we would all "pass" even if we answered everything wrong. So effectively it is paying with your time in exchange for not getting points on your license. Everyone else on the course seemed like normal people to me, although most people struggled with filling in the table of speeds for various vehicles on various road types, especially 4-lane single carriageways and non-motorway dual carriageways!

I disagreed with the instructor on a few things but could not get them to understand my point (even if they did not agree with it):
- 30mph limits for built up areas that are street lit, but there is no 30 sign. Yes I know its in the highway code, but this will annoy people behind so much that they will be right up your backside
- variable speed limits on motorways that change when you are just about to pass under the gantry. According to my course instructor you should slam on your brakes sharply and (and this is a direct quote) "its safer to be rear ended than to break the speed limit by 1mph". I lost respect for them at this point and zoned out.

I recently did training and the DVLA test for a motorcycle license. Things are viewed a bit different there, as you are a more vulnerable user than in a car. My instructor told me that there are 20 limits on the test route, that before the limit was downgraded from a 30, you would get have gotten a minor for not making progress if you drove down them at 20 during the test. I think that says it all! I was taught that after the test, to ride slightly above the speed limit where possible, so everything will happen ahead of you where you can see, and reduce the chance of being rear ended. The safest speed to ride is the speed of the other traffic to reduce the risk of a collision or the speed differential in a collision, so if everyone is breaking the limit I match their speed.

I've had numerous times in my car when I've been driving at 20 in 20 limits on roads with no property frontages and good visibility and it has just caused other drivers to do dangerous overtakes. The problem isn't 20 limits, but the blanket way in which they've been applied by some local authorities. LB Croydon's policy is for all roads that are not an A or B road to be a 20, which is stupid.

MotCO's A298 Bushey Road, Raynes Park example is one I've been on before and its incredibly frustrating!

 

[MotCO]

This is why you get the charade on the M25 of everyone doing 90ish as people used to back in the day, but then a sea of brake lights at every gantry as people slow down to about 78 for the cameras.

I've often wondered what happens if you pass a variable speed limit on a 'smart' motorway at 70mph, and the speed limit suddenly comes on. Do you get caught for speeding, or is there a small time tolerance to allow you to adjust your speed safely, or alternatively, can you only get caught if you have passed two illuminated variable speed limits showing the same speed?

 

[jfollows]

I've often wondered what happens if you pass a variable speed limit on a 'smart' motorway at 70mph, and the speed limit suddenly comes on. Do you get caught for speeding, or is there a small time tolerance to allow you to adjust your speed safely, or alternatively, can you only get caught if you have passed two illuminated variable speed limits showing the same speed?

There are defined time limits between a variable speed limit display changing and enforcement of the new limit. I think it's ten seconds, but I will update with a definitive answer if I find it.
EDIT For example,

The M6 Motorway (Junctions 2 to 4) (Variable Speed Limits) Regulations 2020​

(https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/47/regulation/3/made)

(3) In relation to a vehicle, the speed limit indicated by a speed limit sign is the speed shown at the time the vehicle passes the sign, or, if higher, the speed limit shown by the sign ten seconds before the vehicle passed the sign.

(4) For the purposes of this regulation a speed limit sign is to be taken as not indicating any speed limit if, ten seconds before the vehicle passed it, the sign had indicated no speed limit or that the national speed limit was in force.

The actual period implemented for any camera may be longer than this period, but the legislation generally appears to state "ten seconds", so it won't be less than this. I have seen mention that some police forces implement a delay of 1 or 2 minutes, but I have no evidence for this so it would not be wise to assume a longer period!
But clearly the instructor on maniacmartin's course was completely wrong to tell him to brake sharply if the displayed speed limit changes down.
There are also rules about the "stepping" of the limits, I believe, so the change in speed limit from one camera to the next can't be too great. I could be wrong on this point, though, or there may be an "emergency" provision of some sort to over-ride it.
Essentially the system should be designed to enable motorists to see the posted limits clearly and decelerate gradually to meet the new, lower limit. I've never found this not to be the case, I often don't even need to brake.

FURTHER EDIT Highways England in 2015 stated there is a 60 second period implemented before enforcement of the new limit (https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/with_variable_speed_cameras_are#incoming-692313):

I can confirm that following a change in the speed displayed by signal(s) there is a 60 second ‘grace period’ before HADECS3 cameras start enforcement, giving time for drivers to adapt to the new mandatory speed limit. This is to prevent cars from braking sharply.

It's noteworthy that there is an attempt to avoid having sharp braking, however I think this has been subverted by people making claims that they're instantaneous in their enforcement after changing.

 

[Bald Rick]

The really odd (and infuriating) drivers are those who do 40mph.....everywhere. They accumulate big hold ups behind them on the country roads and then sail through the village 30 limits without slowing down.

+1. Drive down the A1081 between St Albans and Harpenden at almost any time of day or night, and you will see this. Limits vary between 30, 40 (for a short stretch) and NSL.

According to my course instructor you should slam on your brakes sharply and (and this is a direct quote) "its safer to be rear ended than to break the speed limit by 1mph". I lost respect for them at this point and zoned out.

personally, I’d have written to the course ‘owners’, as that is demonstrably unsafe.

 

[BenS123]

One road near me has been put down from 40 to 30 in the last few weeks, after having been 40 for as long as many people can remember.

Dorset Council had advertised this change by... taking down every single speed-related sign. The old "40" signs are gone, and no "30" signs replace it, as their argument is the streetlights mean 30mph, but still unfair as there was no warning for this change. The fixed speed camera was set to 30 from day 1, of course, and there have been police camera vans down the road regularly since.

On the side roads coming off this road, there are still "30" signs which connotes a change of speed limit, even though there is none.

Seems like a bit of a money raising move to be honest and extremely dishonest from the council, and a lot of people have been caught, especially in the first week as there were no signs to tell them that the road they had been driving 40 their whole career had suddenly changed to a 30!

 

[zwk500]

One road near me has been put down from 40 to 30 in the last few weeks, after having been 40 for as long as many people can remember.

Dorset Council had advertised this change by... taking down every single speed-related sign. The old "40" signs are gone, and no "30" signs replace it, as their argument is the streetlights mean 30mph, but still unfair as there was no warning for this change. The fixed speed camera was set to 30 from day 1, of course, and there have been police camera vans down the road regularly since.

On the side roads coming off this road, there are still "30" signs which connotes a change of speed limit, even though there is none.

Seems like a bit of a money raising move to be honest and extremely dishonest from the council, and a lot of people have been caught, especially in the first week as there were no signs to tell them that the road they had been driving 40 their whole career had suddenly changed to a 30!

Just terribly lazy, to me. If it's worth changing the limit, it's worth putting up the proper signage.

 

[dangie]

I wonder how many look at the speed limit as indicated on their car satnav screen, bearing in mind they have probably never done any map updates?

 

[Meerkat]

On any road where pedestrians are likely to cross the street I would say 20mph is justified unless there are specific measure taken to restrict pedestrians to identified crossings. A fatality risk 6x lower for a 1.5x decrease in speed is clearly good justification.

That is the risk once hit, so if the chances for getting hit are low then the gain from a 20mph limit is going to be unimpressive.
I would be very against restricting pedestrians to identified crossings - we aren't German and pedestrians need to have quick routes or they wont walk. However on urban A roads the crossing points can be made safer.

Given the need to stop for junctions and traffic lights, how often are you actually averaging more than 20mph in a town? If everybody slowed down to 20 you'd probably have the same average speed as there'd be less need to stop at junctions and crossings because there'd be more gaps for traffic to filter/merge and pedestrians to cross between.

Plenty of time on A and B roads through urban areas.
I disagree about the average speed. Its harder to cross when you have a stream of spaced out traffic all doing 20 than a more bunched up higher limit.

'I struggle to stick to 20' is, to me, indicative of Lazy driving. You can lift your right foot.

My car really doesn't like 20, its between gears and ends up being annoyingly high revs for pootling. 20 is REALLY slow.
And it means constantly concentrating on speed (because 20 is so unnatural) rather than looking at the risks and driving to the conditions. With the added risk that if you can maintain 20 when there is no traffic its so incredibly boring and easy that the mind wanders.

PS don't think my cruise control goes as low as 20 but have you ever tried it at 30 in town? Feels really fast as I realise how often I use engine braking to ease slightly for corners etc.

Edit - forgot to finish reading your linked document. Their policy is for primarily residential roads, those with average speeds below 24mph already or traffic calming can make it <20, and NOT for major routes. This is not how some councils are planning to implement them, nor what the campaigning organisations are demanding.

 

[Lucan]

It looks like parking is permitted on both sides of that road; if there were cars parked down both sides and a pedestrian was to try to cross between them, it may be difficult to see them until the last second. I would say this is justification for a 20 limit.
The road also looks to be a bit narrow for a 30 limit. With double yellow lines on each side though I'd say, on balance, 30 is more appropriate.

No-one parks along there, it would be a long walk to anywhere. If you wanted the houses visible on the right, you would park in that estate road. The town centre is some way off to the left and parking is not a problem there. The reason there are no yellow lines is that it would be a waste of paint, and parking would not cause a problem anyway. The road is wider than it looks in the picture because that was taken with the very wide angle lens used by Google Streetview cameras.

No-one crosses the road there either, in fact I have never seen anyone on the pavement except near the ends of this stretch where side roads come out from that estate and where there are light-controlled pedestrian crossings. While a few of those houses do have a personnel gate in that back fence, there is no reason to cross the road except at the crossings at the end because there are only high railings on the opposite side. Even if you wanted to cross it, this would be one of the safest roads I know of to do so even if the limit were 30 - straight with light traffic. It is certainly the most absurd application of a 20 limit that I have yet seen.

The old "40" signs are gone, and no "30" signs replace it, as their argument is the streetlights mean 30mph, but still unfair as there was no warning for this change.

I would agree that good warning should be given and some tolerance shown for a week or two in such cases.

As long as I can remember the rule has been that where there are street lights there is a 30 mph limit unless repeaters on them say otherwise. This rule goes back to WWII or perhaps the 1930s. However there would always be a 30 sign at the start of such an area. There also used to be a convention that a speed limit sign (which, by the above rule, includes a bare lampost) should always be within line of sight (legally defined as 200 yards at most), hence the need for the smaller repeaters in some spots, including where the limit applies despite having no lighting.

The presence of street lights acting as a 30mph limit indicator saves certainly over a £billion in costs of supplying and installing repeaters throughout every road in every town.

There was a case some years ago of motorist being prosecuted for exceeding 30 mph in a road with streetlamps; he returned and measured the lamp spacing and appealed because the spacing was 220 yards or something (ie over the legal 200), but he lost the appeal. While I'm not inclined to sympathise with that individual, the unfortunate effect of the case was that it allowed those responsible for signage generally to cut corners and be sloppy. Today, there is very often no limit sign in sight, and given that there are many roads with lighting but a limit more than 30, that there are lit roads with limits less than 30, the increasing tendency of the authorities to micro-manage your speed, and that they keep changing the limits anyway, I often find myself without a clue what the speed limit actually is. On one road near me the signs on posts say 30 while 40 is painted on the road surface.

 

[jfollows]

30mph repeater signs are generally not allowed, but I attach a summary of the situation stated in 2014 from https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01921/SN01921.pdf

30 mph repeater signs are not permitted on restricted roads; these are roads where there are street lights not more than 200 yards apart. The rules as to the use of repeater signs on roads with other speed limits were relaxed in 2012.

I once turned into a road in a fairly urban area and drove at 30mph because it had regular street lights; it was only after about a quarter of a mile that I came across a 40mph repeater on a street light. I know I did the right thing, I don't say that all that often. For the first bit I didn’t have a clue what the limit was, so I assumed 30.

 

[Ken H]

I think in this day and age there should be 30 repeaters on main roads. No need in residential streets. Why not?

 

[MotCO]

Legally, should there be speed limit signs on both sides of the road (or each side of one carriageway in a dual carriageway) when you are entering a changed speed limit zone? Usually there are, but I have seen some where there is only one sign.

 

[jfollows]

Legally, should there be speed limit signs on both sides of the road (or each side of one carriageway in a dual carriageway) when you are entering a changed speed limit zone? Usually there are, but I have seen some where there is only one sign.

Legally, no, but unsurprisingly it’s recommended (https://assets.publishing.service.g...le/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf):

There is no specific requirement that signs indicating the beginning of a restriction or prohibition must be placed on each side of the road or on each side of the appropriate carriageway of a dual carriageway road (see 8.2 in respect of speed limit signs). This relaxation has been made to reduce environmental impact, but care should be taken to ensure that a single sign is clearly visible to all road users and does not give rise to issues relating to enforcement or road safety. This might require a single sign in some instances to be placed on the off side of the road.

 

[Meerkat]

There should at least be temporary "new speed limit - 30" signs up when it changes, for all the locals that have got used to the old one.
The "new road layout" ones go up, and stay up long after you can remember what the old layout was!

 

[dangie]

The "new road layout" ones go up, and stay up long after you can remember what the old layout was!

We still have a ‘New Roundabout Ahead’ sign at least 2-3 years after it became ‘New’. I’m sure its been forgotten about.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2023 ==

Out cycling this morning alongside the town bypass, the speed demons with their souped-up Astra’s & Fiesta’s etc were out in force. Speed limit 50mph but many were doing much more than that. Overtaking with cars coming the opposite direction didn’t seem to stop them. I’m sure quite a few drivers had to brake quickly to avoid a frontal smash and hope someone following wasn’t too close.

 

[route101]

There is a road out of Southampton that has no speed limit signs, well they have been rubbed out. It was a 30mph but most people were doing 40mph. This road is the A33 from Avenue up to the M3/M27 junction.

 

[dangie]

Going back to my Thread beginning.
Received a letter yesterday from North Wales Police with the offer of a Speed Awareness Course. Far better than a fine plus points. I've chosen a physical course not Zoom at a venue just over a mile from where I live so I'll either walk or go on the bus (don't want to risk another speeding ticket going to a Speed Awareness Course). For information the cost was £85.

 

[jfollows]

Going back to my Thread beginning.
Received a letter yesterday from North Wales Police with the offer of a Speed Awareness Course. Far better than a fine plus points. I've chosen a physical course not Zoom at a venue just over a mile from where I live so I'll either walk or go on the bus (don't want to risk another speeding ticket going to a Speed Awareness Course). For information the cost was £85.

Good; thanks for letting us know.

 

[gg1]

There is a road out of Southampton that has no speed limit signs, well they have been rubbed out. It was a 30mph but most people were doing 40mph. This road is the A33 from Avenue up to the M3/M27 junction.

There's a major road in Brum like that where the limit was reduced from 40 to 30 a few years ago which is far worse than no signs at all. When I first saw them I assumed the signs had been vandalised.

 

[chr]

The Avenue in Southampton does have 30 signs upon entering the city from the north




And indeed on the south side of The Avenue there are signs as you leave the 20 zone and enter the 30 zone, though I appreciate at the beginning of The Avenue being 30 adjoining roads were also 30 (and thus no sign) - but no sign means no change so....

Just seems like it's not too hard tbh - if there aren't signs and it's a built up zone it's 30. And honestly 40 in a semi-residential zone coming into a major city with pedestrians, cyclists etc is madness.

 

[ABB125]

There's a major road in Brum like that where the limit was reduced from 40 to 30 a few years ago which is far worse than no signs at all. When I first saw them I assumed the signs had been vandalised.

Sounds like the A38 south of the city centre!
The signs are now gone (I think, it's been many months since I last drove along there), which is better than them being painted over. However, pretty much everyone drives at 40mph, the old speed limit. As far as I can tell, there was no "sensible" reason to reduce the limit, especially as north of the city centre it remains a 40mph road. I suspect it was the "something must be done" brigade who pushed through the change...
(interestingly, the bus lane along the road between Northfield and Selly Oak was removed a few years ago. That is somewhat at odds with the speed limit reductions across the city, as well as the emissions charge!)