DalesRail to end - what could be done?

[bluenoxid]

With a coach-based replacement, serving Manchester becomes an option.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With a coach-based replacement, serving Manchester becomes an option.

It would have been feasible to portion work it from Manchester but they never actually did. The leaflets did show connecting times from Manchester though.

One thing that did used to get it more business in the 90s was that it was by a considerable margin the earliest service north from Preston past Oxenholme on a Sunday. The earliest Sunday northbound departure from Preston that wasn't a Barrow or Windermere was if I recall about 1530.

 

[30907]

pity it never ran from Manchester

ISTR it sometimes did, but then they restored the Clitheroe service which made it awkward. And Manchester to the North Pennines is rather a trek anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ISTR it sometimes did, but then they restored the Clitheroe service which made it awkward. And Manchester to the North Pennines is rather a trek anyway.

It's also very easy to go via Leeds.

It'd not be hard to do it though, 2 cars from Blackpool, 2 from Manchester, join at Preston, at a very quiet time of day. A bit roundabout but as I said it's basically a coach tour so nobody would care.

 

[nw1]

This came up in the "May 2023 changes" thread but I'm wondering if anyone has ever thought of through services from Manchester to the Settle and Carlisle, by extending an existing Clitheroe service? Obviously there'd be little point on a midweek day in winter, but would there be demand on summer half-year weekends from about now through to the end of September?

It could for example be in the path of an existing Manchester-Clitheroe service which divides there, half returning to Manchester as normal and half continuing up the S&C.

Could be northbound in the morning and southbound in the evening.

They've had Dales Rail for a while, but I wonder whether Manchester (Piccadilly ideally) would be the natural origin for such a service?

 

[The Planner]

This came up in the "May 2023 changes" thread but I'm wondering if anyone has ever thought of through services from Manchester to the Settle and Carlisle, by extending an existing Clitheroe service? Obviously there'd be little point on a midweek day in winter, but would there be demand on summer half-year weekends from about now through to the end of September?

It could for example be in the path of an existing Manchester-Clitheroe service which divides there, half returning to Manchester as normal and half continuing up the S&C.

Could be northbound in the morning and southbound in the evening.

They've had Dales Rail for a while, but I wonder whether Manchester (Piccadilly ideally) would be the natural origin for such a service?

Clitheroe extensions failed in restoring your railway bids.

 

[zwk500]

This came up in the "May 2023 changes" thread but I'm wondering if anyone has ever thought of through services from Manchester to the Settle and Carlisle, by extending an existing Clitheroe service? Obviously there'd be little point on a midweek day in winter, but would there be demand on summer half-year weekends from about now through to the end of September?

It could for example be in the path of an existing Manchester-Clitheroe service which divides there, half returning to Manchester as normal and half continuing up the S&C.

If you're doing it, you'd probably want the simplest option of just Manchester-Hellifield or Appleby 1tp2h, with hourly Manchester-Clitheroes in between. I think on summer weekends there'd certainly be a decent market for it.

They've had Dales Rail for a while, but I wonder whether Manchester (Piccadilly ideally) would be the natural origin for such a service?

I think Victoria is a more obvious origin point - not only does it limit the conflicts at Salford Crescent/Ordsall Lane but it also has platforms facing the right direction - you'd need to start from Man Airport to use Piccadilly 13/14. Also, people using this service are likely to largely come from the Manchester area - Yorkshire passengers are going to use the Leeds/Skipton option and further afield would change at Lancaster for the Little NW.

Operationally I have no diea if it would work driver, unit and performance wise

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This is one of those proposals that comes up every now and then. Seems like a really good idea, but in reality, no, it probably isn't. The forum regulars on here will be able to outline why.

Every chance it would just be carting fresh air around for much of the year, even if summer Saturdays/Sundays/BH only.

Might just be do-able as a one-off luxury charter train, but that's about it.

 

[nw1]

This is one of those proposals that comes up every now and then. Seems like a really good idea, but in reality, no, it probably isn't. The forum regulars on here will be able to outline why.

Every chance it would just be carting fresh air around for much of the year, even if summer Saturdays/Sundays/BH only.

Might just be do-able as a one-off luxury charter train, but that's about it.

My thoughts were based on people living in the Manchester area visiting the Dales, either for a day trip (day walk in the Three Peaks area for example) or long weekend (spending Saturday night away).

I don't know, but I'd have expected there to be a market for this if convenient transport exists. Manchester to the Dales is of course difficult by rail, with a long diversion via Leeds necessary. But I will admit I am not sure.

 

[zwk500]

My thoughts were based on people living in the Manchester area visiting the Dales, either for a day trip (day walk in the Three Peaks area for example) or long weekend (spending Saturday night away).

I don't know, but I'd have expected there to be a market for this if convenient transport exists. Manchester to the Dales is of course difficult by rail, with a long diversion via Leeds necessary. But I will admit I am not sure.

There'll be a market, but the question will be is it big enough to justify extra units and drivers, to which the answer is almost certainly not. I'm sure there's some market for it, just no one to justify the faff.

 

[nw1]

I think Victoria is a more obvious origin point - not only does it limit the conflicts at Salford Crescent/Ordsall Lane but it also has platforms facing the right direction - you'd need to start from Man Airport to use Piccadilly 13/14. Also, people using this service are likely to largely come from the Manchester area - Yorkshire passengers are going to use the Leeds/Skipton option and further afield would change at Lancaster for the Little NW.

I was thinking Piccadilly because the connections from the South Manchester area would be better. Need it come from the Airport or could it come into 13/14 ECS? Or off a Buxton or Mid-Cheshire service if the times were right?

 

[zwk500]

I was thinking Piccadilly because the connections from the South Manchester area would be better. Need it come from the Airport or could it come into 13/14 ECS? Or off a Buxton or Mid-Cheshire service if the times were right?

Well in theory it could come off anything but realistically you are not wanting to link it too strongly to anything else because it's got Castlefield and Darwen to negotiate. ECS into the Mayfield Loop and then a quick shunt to 14 might work but you've still got the Castlefield and Ordsall Lane issues. Man Vic is so much easier.

 

[507020]

Clitheroe extensions failed in restoring your railway bids.

But this was for political reasons and nothing to do with any potential train service.

My thoughts were based on people living in the Manchester area visiting the Dales, either for a day trip (day walk in the Three Peaks area for example) or long weekend (spending Saturday night away).

I don't know, but I'd have expected there to be a market for this if convenient transport exists. Manchester to the Dales is of course difficult by rail, with a long diversion via Leeds necessary. But I will admit I am not sure.

I would use it from Southport, i.e. beyond the Manchester because the diversion is shorter than going all the way to Leeds. Only having to get to Bolton to join it is reasonable.

I was thinking Piccadilly because the connections from the South Manchester area would be better. Need it come from the Airport or could it come into 13/14 ECS? Or off a Buxton or Mid-Cheshire service if the times were right?

Are you not aware how notorious P13/14 and Castlefield are? An extension of a Clitheroe - Rochdale service means running through Victoria and continuing to Rochdale.

Rather than running from Manchester all the way to Carlisle, why not run either from Manchester to Morecambe via Hellifield, when Morecambe doesn’t have a direct service to Manchester and there isn’t capacity for one on the WCML, or from Manchester to Hawes, reopening the single track branch line from Garsdale to what is the largest settlement in the vicinity of the Settle - Carlisle line and a hotspot for tourism in the dales, as well being a more convenient place to reverse than Hellifield? Either option would require the opening of a new Absolute Block signal box, but the alterations required would be quite localised and both provide connections further up the Settle - Carlisle.

 

[zwk500]

But this was for political reasons and nothing to do with any potential train service.

No, RYR was looking at business cases. the Political pressure was to advance as many schemes as possible, so if something failed it really didn't stack up.

Rather than running from Manchester all the way to Carlisle, why not run either from Manchester to Morecambe via Hellifield, when Morecambe doesn’t have a direct service to Manchester and there isn’t capacity for one on the WCML,

This doesn't really compete against the car, and would compare badly against TPE from Manchester to Lancaster and changing onto the local.

or from Manchester to Hawes, reopening the single track branch line from Garsdale to what is the largest settlement in the vicinity of the Settle - Carlisle line and a hotspot for tourism in the dales, as well being a more convenient place to reverse than Hellifield? Either option would require the opening of a new Absolute Block signal box, but the alterations required would be quite localised and both provide connections further up the Settle - Carlisle.

This service is never going to justify signalling changes. A brand new AB box is going to be next to impossible to justify, because if it's busy enough to spend that money on it's busy enough for TCB, and if it's not busy enough for TCB it won't justify a new AB box.

 

[43096]

My thoughts were based on people living in the Manchester area visiting the Dales, either for a day trip (day walk in the Three Peaks area for example) or long weekend (spending Saturday night away).

I don't know, but I'd have expected there to be a market for this if convenient transport exists. Manchester to the Dales is of course difficult by rail, with a long diversion via Leeds necessary. But I will admit I am not sure.

There already is convenient transport for the vast majority who would want to do this: it’s called a car.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It is a well established and known fact that many Northern services are much busier on Saturdays than during the week, so reducing capacity of proper services so a few people could have a trip to the Dales isn't a good use of resources. Added to that are the staffing requirements, which has been mentioned previously for Dales Rail which were virtually unworkable, which is why it was cancelled so often.

 

[Bald Rick]

But this was for political reasons and nothing to do with any potential train service.

I can confirm it was nothing to do with politics. The business case was poor. Very poor.

 

[nw1]

There already is convenient transport for the vast majority who would want to do this: it’s called a car.

That could apply to most of the rail network, except for journeys to, or within, large cities!

And for those of us who don't drive? I thought this forum was supposed to be supportive of public transport options!

FWIW this is not based on personal need, I have no intention to travel from Manchester to the Dales any time soon. I just saw it as what looks like an obvious gap waiting to be filled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If DalesRail returns next year, which there are murmerings it might, it would carry more passengers if they ran a Manchester portion, yes. They could run 2-car from Blackpool and 2 from Manchester and join them somewhere along the way.

I'm less sold on the need for a frequent service.

 

[nw1]

If DalesRail returns next year, which there are murmerings it might, it would carry more passengers if they ran a Manchester portion, yes. They could run 2-car from Blackpool and 2 from Manchester and join them somewhere along the way.

Sounds a good plan.

I'm less sold on the need for a frequent service.

To be fair I didn't personally suggest a frequent service, but rather one return trip on summer Saturdays and Sundays only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair I didn't personally suggest a frequent service, but rather one return trip on summer Saturdays and Sundays only.

So basically DalesRail but maybe Saturday as well? Fair enough.

I wonder if you might get more takeup for DalesRail on a Saturday due to there being better connections onto it from further afield, and due to more people going for days out on Saturdays getting back late than Sundays.

But I do think that to get a decent loading it needs to run through to at least Ribblehead, ideally Carlisle. Dumping people at unstaffed Hellifield for a connection that may or may not turn up isn't going to sell itself, and in my observation didn't.

 

[nw1]

So basically DalesRail but maybe Saturday as well? Fair enough.

I wonder if you might get more takeup for DalesRail on a Saturday due to there being better connections onto it from further afield, and due to more people going for days out on Saturdays getting back late than Sundays.

But I do think that to get a decent loading it needs to run through to at least Ribblehead, ideally Carlisle. Dumping people at unstaffed Hellifield for a connection that may or may not turn up isn't going to sell itself, and in my observation didn't.

I wasn't actually thinking of Hellifield as a termination point, but rather Carlisle.

The service would probably need to leave Manchester around 0830-ish to arrive in the Dales around 1000 (? - unsure of exact times) and then onto Carlisle approaching midday. The ideal return time from the Dales would presumably need to be around 1800 or 1900 (remember we're talking about the summer half-year, so it would still be daytime), to give people the chance of a good day out. So it would need to layover most of the day somewhere, or interwork with existing Leeds services. For both options, running through to Carlisle would be easier than terminating at a Dales station with little opportunity to store the unit anywhere (unless it then formed a short back to Leeds, or something).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wasn't actually thinking of Hellifield as a termination point, but rather Carlisle.

The service would probably need to leave Manchester around 0830-ish to arrive in the Dales around 1000 (? - unsure of exact times) and then onto Carlisle approaching midday. The ideal return time from the Dales would presumably need to be around 1800 or 1900 (remember we're talking about the summer half-year, so it would still be daytime), to give people the chance of a good day out. So it would need to layover most of the day somewhere, or interwork with existing Leeds services. For both options, running through to Carlisle would be easier than terminating at a Dales station with little opportunity to store the unit anywhere (unless it then formed a short back to Leeds, or something).

Yep, that's basically DalesRail.

 

[Philip]

How much difference could it make for loadings if Northern offered very cheap fares (much cheaper than the WCML route) for a potential direct Manchester-Carlisle via the S&C? Do you think for a weekends-only service a fare which is £20 cheaper could compensate for the journey taking a couple of hours longer? If it was to cater for people mainly travelling for leisure, as a weekend service would do, then these passengers wouldn't be under the same kind of time pressure as if it was a commuter or business-oriented service.

 

[JonathanH]

How much difference could it make for loadings if Northern offered very cheap fares (much cheaper than the WCML route) for a potential direct Manchester-Carlisle via the S&C? Do you think for a weekends-only service a fare which is £20 cheaper could compensate for the journey taking a couple of hours longer? If it was to cater for people mainly travelling for leisure, as a weekend service would do, then these passengers wouldn't be under the same kind of time pressure as if it was a commuter or business-oriented service.

It would cost more to provide though than the normal service. Through passengers would still use the faster train.

When Northern do their newspaper offer, do the existing Settle & Carlisle trains become noticeably busier?

 

[30907]

How much difference could it make for loadings if Northern offered very cheap fares (much cheaper than the WCML route) for a potential direct Manchester-Carlisle via the S&C?

There is actually no valid walk-up fare that way, as Avanti have made them ROUTE LANCASTER.

 

[tbtc]

I love the way that these proposals quickly grow arms and legs… all of a sudden the modest proposal (“extend an existing Manchester serve that currently terminates at Clitheroe further north to provide a once-a-day link”) becomes “Direct link from Manchester airport/ Buxton” / “portion working from Blackpool” / “heavily discounted fares” / “extend it all the way to Carlisle” / “frequent trains”… (And all of this on the days when Northern already struggle for staffing)

What next? Force TPE to run some Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh services over Ribblehead with drags, as long as the locomotives are painted in the favourite sectorisation era of various posters?

If we take a 60mph freight path as a benchmark for what a Sprinter might do (e.g. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H24864/2023-04-05/detailed ) then Hellifield is 34 minutes from Clitheroe, so too far for one unit to provide an hourly service unless you have LOTS of turnaround time at Clitheroe already…

…you might shave a couple of minutes off that if you run a DMU at line speed but you’d want to get under half an hour before you dared take the performance risk that a train struggled to get back from Hellifield to meet its path on the single line South of Blackburn

But there’s also the problem that Hellifield lacks the signaling for a service to reverse there (AIUI?), because I’ve previously suggested trialling a reversal there to test the apparent market for an East Lancashire - Aire Valley service without the need to spaff hundreds of millions on reopening SELRAP

But if not Hellifield then where?

Ribblehead would be about 1h15 (from Clitheroe), so one unit could maintain that every three hours, which isn’t terrible (albeit the Leeds - Carlisle services are every two hours) but might rely on sticking it out of the way somewhere… Is the loop at Blea Moor fit/empty? Plus then you’re advertising a train as being for Ribblehead but terminating it just short of actually going over the viaduct (even though the train would continue over it to find somewhere to run around!)

Or, if you’re running it further north then you might as well go all the way to Carlisle, in which case your DMU is only doing one trip a day north of clitheroe.

All of this is obviously targeted at the Manchester/ Lancashire leisure market rather than the people in Settle etc wanting the jobs/ shops etc of Manchester (who’d presumably prefer a weekday service to having to wait for Sundays)

 

[nw1]

I love the way that these proposals quickly grow arms and legs… all of a sudden the modest proposal (“extend an existing Manchester serve that currently terminates at Clitheroe further north to provide a once-a-day link”) becomes “Direct link from Manchester airport/ Buxton” / “portion working from Blackpool” / “heavily discounted fares” / “extend it all the way to Carlisle” / “frequent trains”… (And all of this on the days when Northern already struggle for staffing)

To be fair, all the way to Carlisle was my idea when posting, albeit only with a once a day/weekends only/six months a year service. Terminating short of that would I suspect be fraught with problems and relies on a connection from Leeds turning up.

And given the problems discussed above with Piccadilly, quite happy just to make it a Victoria service.

 

[Bantamzen]

It would cost more to provide though than the normal service. Through passengers would still use the faster train.

When Northern do their newspaper offer, do the existing Settle & Carlisle trains become noticeably busier?

From what I've seen yes they do, as they do when Northern have their flash sales. Of course this doesn't mean that any service from Manchester would be any more viable than the current "not at all".

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Have used the service from Blackpool to Carlisle via Blackburn and Settle several times. Pre Covid train was fairly busy, a lot of walkers.
Great scenery - a grand day out! In 2022, arrived BPN bought tickets and just before boarding came an announcement that a tunnel near Appleby needed checking.
Service to be terminate at Hellifield. Ticket office kindly changed our tickets and had a day in Morecombe. Went the next Sunday and no problems. Apparently Northern had cancelled service on several occasions.
Train not so busy.
I reckon Blackburn to Hellifield we were travelling up to 40mph, and Settle to Carlisle 60mph - Ideal to enjoy the views!
(This was the first train on Sunday to arrive at Blackburn from Blackpool)
Was looking forward to a another trip next May/ June.