Saturdays on the railway in general

[NorthernSpirit]

The difference is that the above can be told to pack it in. Do that with a screaming kid and it’ll be all over social media and the local papers as a nasty train driver story!

Depends on how you would regard as a screaming kid, some are aged 35+ (parents will be aged somewhere between 60 and 85) completely wasted and are acting in a crude manner; either in general, towards rail staff or passengers. If we roll back the years with the infamous TransPennine ale trail, you'd often find on Saturday's a load of plastered individuals in fancy dress downing not ale but lagers before getting bored at Marsden. Thankfully its piped down now.

 

[mikeb42]

Yet regularly on here people suggest the Sunday service should be the same as on a weekday!

Clearly, the suggestion is untenable on a blanket basis as many commuter type flows are just dead. However, some longer distance services from Sunday late morning onward need to be at least as or more intense than on a weekday.

Extrapolating from my own painfully acquired ample database of GWR (mostly) anecdata, it's ludicrous that there are only 2-3 trains per hour to London from Swindon (and correspondingly fewer for all points west by definition) on a Sunday afternoon versus 4-5 on weekdays. The long list of explanations for this situation are very interesting and all that, but sound like something from 1952.

One attempt at such a journey ought to be enough for anyone who isn't either a) desperate, b) a masochist or c) both. It's a deplorable experience most times. I feel sorry for all the naive first-timers who were expecting something more civilised in return for the £eye-watering outlay. Hardened regulars come psychologically prepared to figuratively punch their way onto the train and claim some barely-existent standing space to wedge themselves into. They then get to stand in an aisle/vestibule/toilet or face the wall in the cycle cubicle for a few hours. It's outside my experience, but the same seems likely true in the other direction too given that when you get to Paddington the place looks like some epic disaster has hit London and everyone is desperately trying to leave, often with all their possessions in-tow.

More limited experience of heading to London from just about every other direction at this time suggests things are much the same. E.g. spending the entire journey from Manchester to London standing wedged against a door astride someone else's suitcase because there was nowhere else left to put it that didn't involve holding it above our heads for the duration.

To cling to the thread topic, Saturdays on this route at least used to be rather civilised on the whole unless there was a relevant big football match, in which case it could be expected to be uniformly grim. Now they are fairly often a bit unpleasant, but rarely a patch on Sundays.

 

[bramling]

Clearly, the suggestion is untenable on a blanket basis as many commuter type flows are just dead. However, some longer distance services from Sunday late morning onward need to be at least as or more intense than on a weekday.

Extrapolating from my own painfully acquired ample database of GWR (mostly) anecdata, it's ludicrous that there are only 2-3 trains per hour to London from Swindon (and correspondingly fewer for all points west by definition) on a Sunday afternoon versus 4-5 on weekdays. The long list of explanations for this situation are very interesting and all that, but sound like something from 1952.

One attempt at such a journey ought to be enough for anyone who isn't either a) desperate, b) a masochist or c) both. It's a deplorable experience most times. I feel sorry for all the naive first-timers who were expecting something more civilised in return for the £eye-watering outlay. Hardened regulars come psychologically prepared to figuratively punch their way onto the train and claim some barely-existent standing space to wedge themselves into. They then get to stand in an aisle/vestibule/toilet or face the wall in the cycle cubicle for a few hours. It's outside my experience, but the same seems likely true in the other direction too given that when you get to Paddington the place looks like some epic disaster has hit London and everyone is desperately trying to leave, often with all their possessions in-tow.

More limited experience of heading to London from just about every other direction at this time suggests things are much the same. E.g. spending the entire journey from Manchester to London standing wedged against a door astride someone else's suitcase because there was nowhere else left to put it that didn't involve holding it above our heads for the duration.

To cling to the thread topic, Saturdays on this route at least used to be rather civilised on the whole unless there was a relevant big football match, in which case it could be expected to be uniformly grim. Now they are fairly often a bit unpleasant, but rarely a patch on Sundays.

I have actually had some lovely journeys on Saturday evenings, especially on Intercity trains. Leeds to King’s Cross in a Mk4 first class sticks out, only person in carriage, also Edinburgh to Stevenage pretty much same. However there’s always that nagging feeling that the peace could be shattered at any moment, more so than weekday travel where (pre Covid at least) things tended to be fairly consistent in terms of being civilised.

What I always found worse was travel home from London for work-related journeys. Even in the mid or late evening loadings were utterly inconsistent and unpredictable, so one week the journey might be fairly bearable, however the next week the train could be crush loaded. Add in the effect of cancellations and a seemingly higher likelihood of stuff going wrong, and it just made the whole thing unbearable. Likewise over the last couple of decades weekend travel has generally increased, and seems to have exploded since Covid. I’ve been using the car as the default mode for some years now, very rare for me to make any form of weekend journey, though I will occasionally use a very early morning GTR service into London but only if I can arrange to be picked up and taken home by car for the return journey. This is a rather sad state of affairs as I don’t remember Saturday travel being such an utter ball-ache in the 90s.

The economics of this has also been one contributor to the scales tipping away from weekday rail travel for me, too. So despite being eligible for a PRIV-rate season, it irks me to feel that I’m paying for a seven-days-a-week ticket, but feel like having been forced to use the car under duress for two of those. That being the case, and with the car having had to increasingly come out to play on weekdays too over the last couple of years, I found myself arriving at the situation where I feel it is more expedient to contribute that season ticket cost towards fuel (and owning shares in Shell makes this feel even better!). In essence even at 75% off, the season feels like a white elephant. The weekend thing isn’t the only reason for this, but it is one reason. Round here it essentially feels like a 5-day-a-week service anyway.

 

[MCSHF007]

It was bad enough then though.

It depends on the TOC as well. TPEX, EMR and Cross Country in particular are horrendous for overcrowding now at weekends. Avanti quite bad as well with the reduced (and still unreliable) timetable and LNR having to pick up the slack, affecting the service on their trains. My experience with Northern is it's fine when 4 carriages turn up and an unpleasant journey when its 2.

Most of these TOCS are not running to a 2019 frequency.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2022 ==



A lot of the overcrowding is just downright dangerous. People are herded like cattle (treated like animals at least) and pay through the nose for the privilege of being squashed for multiple hours.

I appreciate everyone getting a seat isn't always practical.

A lot of Saturday overcrowding isn't caused by people "paying through the nose" though. People flock to York, Leeds, Manchester etc on very competively priced tickets (assuming they pay at all) but the capacity simply isn't there to cope with these flows (especially at these bargain prices).

 

[yorksrob]

A lot of Saturday overcrowding isn't caused by people "paying through the nose" though. People flock to York, Leeds, Manchester etc on very competively priced tickets (assuming they pay at all) but the capacity simply isn't there to cope with these flows (especially at these bargain prices).

A lot of this is caused as much by "short train' syndrome, probably even more prevalent in the North now that various 153's and pacers that could have supplemented services, have been withdrawn.

Sundays are an interesting one. Travelling back this Sunday (no trains on Saturday of course) due to various engineering works, the hourly Calder valley stopper was one of only two trains an hour between Manchester and Leeds. It was predictably busy.

 

[GN Boy]

Have never really had any major issues with football fans on my train. Drunk darts fans coming out of the Ally Pally on the other hand…

 

[greyman42]

I'm sorry but you have got your blinkers on. The only people en-masse in stations - let alone the copious evidence above from train crew and on board - that requires a significant amount of BTP is for football fans. Not even other sports fans require this sort of intervention. They are the only groups I have seen vandalising stations, starting fights, leaving the place as their own personal dustbin, jumping in and out of retail outlets and trying to enter staff areas; in a distant second with this sort of behaviour is bored youths and stag and hen dos. It is a major cultural problem.

You need to visit York station after a weekend race meeting. I would say that the police presence at York after a race meeting is greater than at Newcastle after a football match.

 

[PMH]

Not sure if this is the right place, but I need to get from Macclesfield to Altrincham for lunch on Saturday returning home later that night. I'll be heavily refreshed by that point, though well behaved in fairness, but are the trains (both Northern, via Stockport) likely to turn up or be cancelled?

Will take the car if need be, but would rather have a scoop.

 

[airantraigh]

Pre-covid there used to be a ban on a LNER Aberdeen departure due to raucous oil workers. I don't know if it still stands.

Saw this displayed there last week- not sure if its the same departure though?

 

[greyman42]

Saw this displayed there last week- not sure if its the same departure though?

View attachment 132283

York station has similar signs regarding a station alcohol ban on Saturday evenings.

 

[185143]

Saw this displayed there last week- not sure if its the same departure though?

View attachment 132283

I was on that service a couple of weeks back. Credit where it's due, it was enforced properly. Security staff were searching bags of groups before departure, and regularly patrolling the train onboard. The TM had made announcements to that effect too, and a warning that and "mischief" would be reported to BTP.

I'm vehemently against blanket bans (YES, SCOTRAIL, YOU!) but will happily support them if it's done for very good reason and enforced properly. York on Saturday evenings is exactly the same, though I've only seen security onboard Grand Central.

My experience on that LNER service was a stark contrast to the Aberdeen-Glasgow SR HST I travelled on the following day. There was an international Scotland match in Glasgow I didn't know about, so the train was absolutely rammed with football fans. On both that service, and the 158 I picked up on the last Glasgow-Aberdeen that night, I'd say 90%+ were drinking. But, credit where it's due, it was reasonably peaceful, civil and there were no issues at all. The onboard staff at the times they could get through wisely decided to keep the peace and leave everyone to it.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Last Saturday was relatively pleasant on what few trains I took in Greater Manchester. That said, it had been planned as a strike day until around ten days before so it's probably not a fair comparison as many would've already cancelled and not travelled/rebooked.

 

[Bald Rick]

Last Saturday was relatively pleasant on what few trains I took in Greater Manchester. That said, it had been planned as a strike day until around ten days before so it's probably not a fair comparison as many would've already cancelled and not travelled/rebooked.

Last Saturday numbers were roughly the same as for a normal Saturday.

 

[Krokodil]

Last Saturday numbers were roughly the same as for a normal Saturday.

Out of curiosity, what figures are you using?

 

[Bald Rick]

Out of curiosity, what figures are you using?

Those reported from ticketing / revenue systems.

 

[Runningaround]

I was on that service a couple of weeks back. Credit where it's due, it was enforced properly. Security staff were searching bags of groups before departure, and regularly patrolling the train onboard. The TM had made announcements to that effect too, and a warning that and "mischief" would be reported to BTP.

I'm vehemently against blanket bans (YES, SCOTRAIL, YOU!) but will happily support them if it's done for very good reason and enforced properly. York on Saturday evenings is exactly the same, though I've only seen security onboard Grand Central.

My experience on that LNER service was a stark contrast to the Aberdeen-Glasgow SR HST I travelled on the following day. There was an international Scotland match in Glasgow I didn't know about, so the train was absolutely rammed with football fans. On both that service, and the 158 I picked up on the last Glasgow-Aberdeen that night, I'd say 90%+ were drinking. But, credit where it's due, it was reasonably peaceful, civil and there were no issues at all. The onboard staff at the times they could get through wisely decided to keep the peace and leave everyone to it.

So if you come back from holiday with a bag full of duty free or happen to purchase a few bottles of Scotlands national drink after a visit too some of it's distilleries how can you take it home by train?

 

[jfowkes]

So if you come back from holiday with a bag full of duty free or happen to purchase a few bottles of Scotlands national drink after a visit too some of it's distilleries how can you take it home by train?

Staff discretion probably goes a long way here. Some bottles of whisky in a bag or suitcase that stay hidden and unopened are not the same as a bulk-pack of Carling cans dumped on a table. A ban gives staff the ability to remove alcohol that is obviously meant for consumption on the train while letting cases of possession-but-not-drinking slide.

Giving staff this discretion makes the rules fuzzy and opens up space for bad behaviour from both customers and guards though. It's difficult.

 

[Krokodil]

Those reported from ticketing / revenue systems.

Is this particular data published anywhere?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this particular data published anywhere?

not in any detail, but daily figures in comparison to 2019 are published by DfT somewhere.

 

[Krokodil]

Yes, I've checked those and they're a month behind. I'd love to see some granular detail.

 

[gazzaa2]

What was going on with the Cross Country rolling stock yesterday? Seems to have been a lot of short forms in the morning at least causing some chronic overcrowding.