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This is something from a big discussion with colleagues we found, it doesn’t seem to affect all routes/tickets and from the examples given it was being passed up for someone to liaise with Trainline over
It's too much like trial and error to expect the average person to select a different train to buy a walk up ticket against. There are various quirks to get to grips with if buying tickets at late notice, especially if going for the last train of the day. But not great if the idea is for it to be simple!
It's too much like trial and error to expect the average person to select a different train to buy a walk up ticket against. There are various quirks to get to grips with if buying tickets at late notice, especially if going for the last train of the day. But not great if the idea is for it to be simple!
Pretty much what I was trying to say but got tangled in explaining all the technicalities!
I raised it into a big discussion a couple of weeks back and it was being passed up so hopefully (fingers crossed) the problem will be ironed out one day
This is something from a big discussion with colleagues we found, it doesn’t seem to affect all routes/tickets and from the examples given it was being passed up for someone to liaise with Trainline over
I wonder if it's been fixed (or what the rules are, if not - and it really does vary TOC-to-TOC, it's most odd) since your conversation!
It doesn't really make much sense to me.
The only legitimate reason I can think of for adding a warning is if the ticket can only be ToD-fulfilled as this will greatly increase the time required to obtain a valid ticket for the service - but again, the app doesn't know if the customer is standing right next to a TVM ready to type in their collection code.
It makes sense to prevent sales of Advances at about 5 minutes, because that creates too much of a risk of missing the train and so the ticket having no value.
No reason walk-up e-tickets shouldn't be sold right up to departure, as if the train is missed then it can be used on another one.
However, swapping to a different ticket isn't difficult. You tap the later train, then you tap "More tickets available from £3.70", then you choose the Anytime Day Single. It's two more taps
We on here are mostly used to this mildly ludicrous "gaming" of these ticket buying apps, but we absolutely shouldn't have to, and ordinary customers deserve a simple process of being able to select from a series of plain choices, and for the train we really want to catch.
But (correct me if I am wrong) I thought Penalty Fare appeals were not done by the train company concerned but some external appeal process - who won't be minded to use discretion in favour of the customer - just implement the letter of the rules.
So unless I am wrong about that I doubt it would get anywhere.
But if I am wrong, then yes, the OP could give it a try
Maybe, but Northern still have it in their gift to override that. My experiences with them have always been positive and I don't think they would be unreasonable if approached. Look forward to hearing how the OP gets on and hope it's a good outcome.
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However, swapping to a different ticket isn't difficult. You tap the later train, then you tap "More tickets available from £3.70", then you choose the Anytime Day Single. It's two more taps.
That might be true if you're so minded, but people have very different abilities when it comes to hacking and trial and error. In this instance that requires a certain level of knowledge of ticket types and going against logic by selecting a train that's not going to be taken.
It should not be necessary to do that to buy a ticket, unless the aim of the game is to alienate people and create situations like this where people with entirely honest intentions have to start being inventive and end up in trouble.
I wonder if it's been fixed (or what the rules are, if not - and it really does vary TOC-to-TOC, it's most odd) since your conversation!
It doesn't really make much sense to me.
The only legitimate reason I can think of for adding a warning is if the ticket can only be ToD-fulfilled as this will greatly increase the time required to obtain a valid ticket for the service - but again, the app doesn't know if the customer is standing right next to a TVM ready to type in their collection code.
Some years back you were told it could take two hours for your ticket to be ready for collection. Rarely this was true, but when there was a delay you couldn't do anything for two hours.
Then it became 15 minutes I think? Is it now considered instant for buying on your phone and printing from a TVM? While it might usually be the case, the app could restrict sales 5 minutes before advance ticket sales for this reason, as a means of reducing liability.
But it's extremely poor not to offer flexible tickets on every train. It should not do that ever.
I suggest you post a copy of the notice you were given here (with identifying details like your name and reference numbers blanked out) so people can check the amount and wording conform to the requirements.
It sounds like there may be an inconsistency between the rail industry's messaging that led you to believe you could buy a ticket in this way and the reality that some retailers impose an arbitrary cut-off time prior to departure, after which you must buy your ticket a different way such as from a machine at the station or from a different retailer that doesn't impose such a cut-off. See if you can find any supporting evidence of incorrect messaging e.g. posters at the station or information in rail advertising or on rail industry websites that doesn't warn you about the cut-off when you use the method you did. After the cut-off, clearly the method you used ought to have advised you to buy your ticket using facilities at the station.
Secondly, look carefully at the locations and content of the Penalty Fares notices present at your origin station and consider whether there's a chance they might not comply with the rules, as they still don't at many stations. If there's a chance they don't comply, you can include that as one of the reasons for an appeal. (A rough test is whether there is a notice at every entrance to every platform at the station and whether there is any route by which a person can walk from outside the station onto a train without seeing a PF notice obviously within their natural field of vision at some point.)
Secondly, look carefully at the locations and content of the Penalty Fares notices present at your origin station and consider whether there's a chance they might not comply with the rules, as they still don't at many stations. If there's a chance they don't comply, you can include that as one of the reasons for an appeal. (A rough test is whether there is a notice at every entrance to every platform at the station and whether there is any route by which a person can walk from outside the station onto a train without seeing a PF notice obviously within their natural field of vision at some point.)
A quick look at Google Street view suggests there are four entrances (gaps in the railings) to access the station. One of these gaps (by the bottom of the footbridge steps appears to have no penalty fares signage
Maybe, but Northern still have it in their gift to override that. My experiences with them have always been positive and I don't think they would be unreasonable if approached. Look forward to hearing how the OP gets on and hope it's a good outcome.
Unfortunately an email to Northern's customer service team has only come back with the expected "your ticket wasn't valid" / "I am unable to overturn your Penalty Fare" and didn't really respond to my plead for reason.
In all honesty I don't think they read much into my initial email at all as the customer service rep didn't even bother to amend the scripts:
"I am writing to you in regards to correspondence you have sent ourselves relating to your experience when travelling on [DATE] from Kirkstall Forge to Leeds."
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I suggest you post a copy of the notice you were given here (with identifying details like your name and reference numbers blanked out) so people can check the amount and wording conform to the requirements.
..
Secondly, look carefully at the locations and content of the Penalty Fares notices present at your origin station and consider whether there's a chance they might not comply with the rules, as they still don't at many stations. If there's a chance they don't comply, you can include that as one of the reasons for an appeal. (A rough test is whether there is a notice at every entrance to every platform at the station and whether there is any route by which a person can walk from outside the station onto a train without seeing a PF notice obviously within their natural field of vision at some point.)
I've (hopefully) attached the notice to this message which as another poster said shows the fine is £100 + £3.70 for an anytime ticket which makes sense. I think they've got me where they want me for a T&C's point of view which I never really doubted, Im just left frustrated at the fact I had a ticket before traveling.
And in terms of signage, I did check the station on my return journey and did spot a sign saying all the usual "if you don't have a valid ticket ...£100 fine" etc. I obviously wasn't looking out for this but in all honesty even if I did see it I still probably wouldn't have thought what I was doing was in breach of it.
You don't appeal by emailing customer services.
There is a proper process you must follow which should be explained on the rest of the bits of paper you photographed.
If you didn't notice the signs then that is one ground you can use for appeal as they are required to be both at every entrance to every platform and also in further places so they will be seen by everyone who boards a train - not merely in places where you'll only spot them if you go looking for them. If people choose not to read them, that's their problem, but if there aren't enough notices in the right places, that's the train company's problem and they aren't supposed to issue any Penalty Fares for travel from that station. The rules set a high bar, and my personal opinion is that the vast majority of stations are not compliant. When I pass through a station where proper thought has been given to this, it really does stand out. Ironically I saw a few stations recently which were not compliant because the train company had put its OWN posters up in places where the prescribed ones needed to be - even though their own posters had a better impact than the proper ones (which are a dreadful design)!
Unfortunately an email to Northern's customer service team has only come back with the expected "your ticket wasn't valid" / "I am unable to overturn your Penalty Fare" and didn't really respond to my plead for reason.
In all honesty I don't think they read much into my initial email at all as the customer service rep didn't even bother to amend the scripts:
"I am writing to you in regards to correspondence you have sent ourselves relating to your experience when travelling on [DATE] from Kirkstall Forge to Leeds."
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I've (hopefully) attached the notice to this message which as another poster said shows the fine is £100 + £3.70 for an anytime ticket which makes sense. I think they've got me where they want me for a T&C's point of view which I never really doubted, Im just left frustrated at the fact I had a ticket before traveling.
And in terms of signage, I did check the station on my return journey and did spot a sign saying all the usual "if you don't have a valid ticket ...£100 fine" etc. I obviously wasn't looking out for this but in all honesty even if I did see it I still probably wouldn't have thought what I was doing was in breach of it.
You need to get your enquiry through to someone at Northern who understands the problem. The chances of Customer Services looking into it that deeply aren't likely so you'll need to get them, or someone else to get it to the attention of whoever there understands how the app and booking horizons work. There's no dishonest intent or evasion on your part and there was no option offered on the app to buy a walkup ticket for that train. I can't imagine under these circumstances that a technical expert at Northern wouldn't prompt the matter to be brought to an end, the challenge is getting them to cast an eye over it.
