Are Penalty Fares Ever Dismissed?

[JTush94]

Hi all! New to this forum as I'm at my wits' end over a Northern Rail penalty notice and don't know whether to give up or not, so am seeking some advice from those more knowledgeable!

Are penalty fares ever dismissed if your ticket is by the rules & regs invalid? I only ask as I find myself in such a frustrating position.

My local station is Kirkstall Forge which I frequently use to travel to Leeds and I routinely buy my ticket on the Trainline app as I walk to the station. I did this last weekend however I wasn't able to complete my purchase on a ticket for the train I was aiming for (17:47), as Trainline told me it was 'sold out'. This was at roughly 17:40 a good few minutes before my train arrived. As prices for all the other trains were identical to the 17:47 (£1.80) I just grabbed a ticket for the later train at 18:17 at around 17:42 - again, a good few minutes in advance before the train I was hoping to use.

As the 17:47 rolled into the station it was almost entirely empty and not sold out as Trainline stated, so I hopped on this one with my ticket. Long story short I left that train 8 minutes later with a Penalty Fare of £102 for my troubles. It goes without saying Northern Rail have followed the T&Cs with this penalty fare, however I can't shake how monumentally unjust such a fine is for someone who hasn't dodged a ticket, or caused any form of loss in revenue for Northern. I also admittedly didn't think I was doing anything wrong at the time too with all tickets being £1.80 - although I understand that's largely irrelevant.

My question is: am I completely out of luck here? Or is there any chance an appeal will be successful? I've appealed the fine and attempted to reason with them but from what I've read online I don't feel confident Penalty Services have any form of compassion for these sorts of situations.

Thanks in advance for any and all help!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably the ticket you bought was an Advance ticket, which is valid only on the specified train? If so, then unfortunately you did not have a valid ticket and so the Penalty Fare was valid and should be paid. It looks like the Advances at the selected tier sold out before you had chance to get one.

If you'd bought a walk-up ticket - an Anytime or an Off Peak - this would have been fine.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all! New to this forum as I'm at my wits' end over a Northern Rail penalty notice and don't know whether to give up or not, so am seeking some advice from those more knowledgeable!

Are penalty fares ever dismissed if your ticket is by the rules & regs invalid? I only ask as I find myself in such a frustrating position.

My local station is Kirkstall Forge which I frequently use to travel to Leeds and I routinely buy my ticket on the Trainline app as I walk to the station. I did this last weekend however I wasn't able to complete my purchase on a ticket for the train I was aiming for (17:47), as Trainline told me it was 'sold out'. This was at roughly 17:40 a good few minutes before my train arrived. As prices for all the other trains were identical to the 17:47 (£1.80) I just grabbed a ticket for the later train at 18:17 at around 17:42 - again, a good few minutes in advance before the train I was hoping to use.

As the 17:47 rolled into the station it was almost entirely empty and not sold out as Trainline stated, so I hopped on this one with my ticket. Long story short I left that train 8 minutes later with a Penalty Fare of £102 for my troubles. It goes without saying Northern Rail have followed the T&Cs with this penalty fare, however I can't shake how monumentally unjust such a fine is for someone who hasn't dodged a ticket, or caused any form of loss in revenue for Northern. I also admittedly didn't think I was doing anything wrong at the time too with all tickets being £1.80 - although I understand that's largely irrelevant.

My question is: am I completely out of luck here? Or is there any chance an appeal will be successful? I've appealed the fine and attempted to reason with them but from what I've read online I don't feel confident Penalty Services have any form of compassion for these sorts of situations.

Thanks in advance for any and all help!

Hi - at my initial reading was to think you have been given a Penalty Fare unjustly.

BUT - it's not the time of the fare that is the problem its the TYPE of fare you bought that is the problem. Given the price you paid I would guess you bought a ticket officially called an 'Advance' ticket - can you check your records and confirm?

The Anytime Single Fare (available for any train that day) is £3.70 - had you bought that, no problem.

But an 'Advance' ticket is only available for use on the train stated on the ticket - so if you bought one of those even at the same price as one that you had seen for the train you travelled on I fear you have inadvertently breached a ticket rule. I would have thought there would have been some sort of warning during the purchase process however.

What actually happened? - did your ticket fail to open Leeds barriers then someone checked and saw you had used a ticket for a train specifically at a later time?

The view on this forum by many is that train companies should not offer short journey tickets with very small discounts like this for frequent interval commuter journeys where people are highly likely to get on the next train than the one they booked, without realising they have committed a ticket offence, with major financial consequences compared to the saving of a couple of £.

Also - can you clarify (upload anonymous copy of what you have been sent) - was this a Penalty Fare Notice issued on the train / station or is this is a letter you have subsequently had from Northern* essentially asking for this sum? (the two have different consequences - which would have an impact on what you can do about them in terms of appealing / risk of court action against you etc)

*A Penalty Fare is not technically the same as what Northern may be calling a 'penalty notice' (your wording) so important to check this fact.

 

[JTush94]

Hi - at my initial reading was to think you have been given a Penalty Fare unjustly.

BUT - it's not the time of the fare that is the problem its the TYPE of fare you bought that is the problem. Given the price you paid I would guess you bought a ticket officially called an 'Advance' ticket - can you check your records and confirm?

The Anytime Single Fare (available for any train that day) is £3.70 - had you bought that, no problem.

But an 'Advance' ticket is only available for use on the train stated on the ticket - so if you bought one of those even at the same price as one that you had seen for the train you travelled on I fear you have inadvertently breached a ticket rule. I would have thought there would have been some sort of warning during the purchase process however.

What actually happened? - did your ticket fail to open Leeds barriers then someone checked and saw you had used a ticket for a train specifically at a later time?

The view on this forum by many is that train companies should not offer short journey tickets with very small discounts like this for frequent interval commuter journeys where people are highly likely to get on the next train than the one they booked, without realising they have committed a ticket offence, with major financial consequences compared to the saving of a couple of £.

Also - can you clarify (upload anonymous copy of what you have been sent) - was this a Penalty Fare Notice issued on the train / station or is this is a letter you have subsequently had from Northern* essentially asking for this sum? (the two have different consequences - which would have an impact on what you can do about them in terms of appealing / risk of court action against you etc)

*A Penalty Fare is not technically the same as what Northern may be calling a 'penalty notice' (your wording) so important to check this fact.

Thanks guys! Unfortunately for me you are both correct in that the ticket I purchased was indeed an 'advance' ticket for a specific time. I guess my reasoning was that I was unable to purchase a ticket for the 17:47 due to the sold out notification on Trainline, and when it arrived a good 10 or so minutes later mostly empty I didn't think much of boarding with my 18:17 as they were identical prices.

In terms of what happened, the ticket man scanned my 18:17 ticket and informed me it wasn't valid for my train and issued me the paper Penalty Fare on the train; the train was so short I had to stay in Leeds station for an additional 10 or so minutes while he fiddled with his device and printed out the Penalty Fare.

Basically as I understand they're well within their rights to issue the fine I just can't quite believe such a fine was issued, given the circumstances. It all felt so unjust that I can't really shake the frustration. I legitimately didn't realise I was doing anything wrong as so the fine has hit me like a brick wall in all honesty.

Basically this just sounds like an incredibly expensive lesson for me. I'm just picturing a world where I watch the 17:47 arrive and leave while waiting for the train Trainline decided I could buy a ticket for!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm just picturing a world where I watch the 17:47 arrive and leave while waiting for the train Trainline decided I could buy a ticket for!

If the low price is important to you you must do that, yes. Once the Advances are sold out for a given train, that's it.

If you're happy to pay the Anytime Day Single at £3.70, just choose that and you can use any train (even if you picked a different one). If making a return trip you might find a flexible return ticket better value anyway.

TBH short distance Advance fares like these are in my view stupid, but given them existing it isn't unreasonable that they come with restrictions due to their low price.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks guys! Unfortunately for me you are both correct in that the ticket I purchased was indeed an 'advance' ticket for a specific time. I guess my reasoning was that I was unable to purchase a ticket for the 17:47 due to the sold out notification on Trainline, and when it arrived a good 10 or so minutes later mostly empty I didn't think much of boarding with my 18:17 as they were identical prices.

In terms of what happened, the ticket man scanned my 18:17 ticket and informed me it wasn't valid for my train and issued me the paper Penalty Fare on the train; the train was so short I had to stay in Leeds station for an additional 10 or so minutes while he fiddled with his device and printed out the Penalty Fare.

Basically as I understand they're well within their rights to issue the fine I just can't quite believe such a fine was issued, given the circumstances. It all felt so unjust that I can't really shake the frustration. I legitimately didn't realise I was doing anything wrong as so the fine has hit me like a brick wall in all honesty.

Basically this just sounds like an incredibly expensive lesson for me. I'm just picturing a world where I watch the 17:47 arrive and leave while waiting for the train Trainline decided I could buy a ticket for!

Are you aware a normal penalty fare which this appears to be is £50 + fare if paid quickly enough?

 

[superkopite]

Hi all! New to this forum as I'm at my wits' end over a Northern Rail penalty notice and don't know whether to give up or not, so am seeking some advice from those more knowledgeable!

Are penalty fares ever dismissed if your ticket is by the rules & regs invalid? I only ask as I find myself in such a frustrating position.

My local station is Kirkstall Forge which I frequently use to travel to Leeds and I routinely buy my ticket on the Trainline app as I walk to the station. I did this last weekend however I wasn't able to complete my purchase on a ticket for the train I was aiming for (17:47), as Trainline told me it was 'sold out'. This was at roughly 17:40 a good few minutes before my train arrived. As prices for all the other trains were identical to the 17:47 (£1.80) I just grabbed a ticket for the later train at 18:17 at around 17:42 - again, a good few minutes in advance before the train I was hoping to use.

As the 17:47 rolled into the station it was almost entirely empty and not sold out as Trainline stated, so I hopped on this one with my ticket. Long story short I left that train 8 minutes later with a Penalty Fare of £102 for my troubles. It goes without saying Northern Rail have followed the T&Cs with this penalty fare, however I can't shake how monumentally unjust such a fine is for someone who hasn't dodged a ticket, or caused any form of loss in revenue for Northern. I also admittedly didn't think I was doing anything wrong at the time too with all tickets being £1.80 - although I understand that's largely irrelevant.

My question is: am I completely out of luck here? Or is there any chance an appeal will be successful? I've appealed the fine and attempted to reason with them but from what I've read online I don't feel confident Penalty Services have any form of compassion for these sorts of situations.

Thanks in advance for any and all help!

Did the Trainine refuse to sell you any ticket for the 17:47 service? Did it offer you an anytime ticket?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks guys! Unfortunately for me you are both correct in that the ticket I purchased was indeed an 'advance' ticket for a specific time. I guess my reasoning was that I was unable to purchase a ticket for the 17:47 due to the sold out notification on Trainline, and when it arrived a good 10 or so minutes later mostly empty I didn't think much of boarding with my 18:17 as they were identical prices.

In terms of what happened, the ticket man scanned my 18:17 ticket and informed me it wasn't valid for my train and issued me the paper Penalty Fare on the train; the train was so short I had to stay in Leeds station for an additional 10 or so minutes while he fiddled with his device and printed out the Penalty Fare.

Basically as I understand they're well within their rights to issue the fine I just can't quite believe such a fine was issued, given the circumstances. It all felt so unjust that I can't really shake the frustration. I legitimately didn't realise I was doing anything wrong as so the fine has hit me like a brick wall in all honesty.

Basically this just sounds like an incredibly expensive lesson for me. I'm just picturing a world where I watch the 17:47 arrive and leave while waiting for the train Trainline decided I could buy a ticket for!

I can understand what happened.

So this sounds like you were issued with a Penalty Fare. If correct I believe:

- If you pay this promptly the fee is reduced to £50 (+the fare you owe on top, prob £3.70 - the ticket you bought is essentially worthless unless used ont he trains it was listed for). Hopefully you are still in time to do this

- You can appeal - this stops the clock on the £50 prompt payment reduction. So you could try to appeal without it risking the sum going to £100+£3.70. The appeal process also prevents risk of being prosecuted IIRC

- Sadly I think your appeal would be dismissed and thus unsuccessful

- So I fear it's indeed an expensive lesson learned and best chalked up to experience.

I just hope you can still get the £50 prompt payment penalty, rather than £100.

 

[JTush94]

If the low price is important to you you must do that, yes. Once the Advances are sold out for a given train, that's it.

If you're happy to pay the Anytime Day Single at £3.70, just choose that and you can use any train (even if you picked a different one). If making a return trip you might find a flexible return ticket better value anyway.

TBH short distance Advance fares like these are in my view stupid, but given them existing it isn't unreasonable that they come with restrictions due to their low price.

Absolutely, I'll plead ignorance in this instance and not recognise advance vs anytime day single - I mistake I will not make again!

Are you aware a normal penalty fare which this appears to be is £50 + fare if paid quickly enough?

Yep I was aware of this and will settle it soon. I guess I'm more frustrated at the principle of the fine rather than the fine itself so wanted to gauge some opinions on an appeal.

Did the Trainine refuse to sell you any ticket for the 17:47 service? Did it offer you an anytime ticket?

Correct, the only option for the 17:47 on Trainline was the advanced £1.80 ticket and that was the same for the following trains to as I checked the app again while being issued the ticket. There was no mention of an anytime ticket frustratingly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Correct, the only option for the 17:47 on Trainline was the advanced £1.80 ticket and that was the same for the following trains to as I checked the app again while being issued the ticket. There was no mention of an anytime ticket frustratingly.

That's extremely strange. Can you replicate that happening, and can you post screenshots?

 

[WesternLancer]

Correct, the only option for the 17:47 on Trainline was the advanced £1.80 ticket and that was the same for the following trains to as I checked the app again while being issued the ticket. There was no mention of an anytime ticket frustratingly.

Obv you have learned your lesson here but I sympathise with the sit'n. It's not the 1st occasion on here that Trainline customers say things are not that clear to them. I don't use Trainline so I am unsure myself.

In case the following is useful general advice :

- it's an idea to familiarise yourself with the basic terms of Anytime and Off Peak tickets which can be used on any train (in the window of time that is 'Off Peak' in the case of an off peak ticket) - so you get much more flexibility for your money. Personally I only buy Advance (with it's associated restrictions) if I'm going to get a decent financial saving as a result of that trade off - but different people will have a different view on what such a saving is worth to them of course.

Just to make you even more fed up with them - I just had this e-mail in my inbox from Northern today:

The 'partner site' referred to is seatfrog, and it implies there is a £2.50 charge or minimum. I also wonder if the ref to 10 mins before train departs in the below is a clue that the cheap Advance fare for the 17.47 ceased being available for you to buy 10 mins before your train, hence why you saw it but could not complete buying it in the short window of time you outlined in your original post. Not that any of this helps with the Penalty Fare of course.

Hi xxx, change your train, not your plans! We are delighted to announce you can now change the departure time of your Advanced Purchase train ticket for an alternative same-day Northern service. You can make the changes from one day in advance, right up to 10 minutes before your original train departs. Swapping is easy, just go to our partner site, enter the train time and destination of your bought Advance Purchase Ticket and find the next train that suits you.

​

So, if a meeting has overran or there's last-minute plans with friends, you won't have to buy a new ticket, just change the one you already have. Now it's easier than ever to Go Do Your Thing!

 

[superkopite]

That's extremely strange. Can you replicate that happening, and can you post screenshots?

I have actually seen this many times on the Trainline app, normally for Avanti services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have actually seen this many times on the Trainline app, normally for Avanti services.

Avanti services can show sold out if all the reservations are issued because they are flagged as reservation compulsory. Northern services aren't.

 

[Horizon22]

Obv you have learned your lesson here but I sympathise with the sit'n. It's not the 1st occasion on here that Trainline customers say things are not that clear to them. I don't use Trainline so I am unsure myself.

In case the following is useful general advice :

- it's an idea to familiarise yourself with the basic terms of Anytime and Off Peak tickets which can be used on any train (in the window of time that is 'Off Peak' in the case of an off peak ticket) - so you get much more flexibility for your money. Personally I only buy Advance (with it's associated restrictions) if I'm going to get a decent financial saving as a result of that trade off - but different people will have a different view on what such a saving is worth to them of course.

Just to make you even more fed up with them - I just had this e-mail in my inbox from Northern today:

The 'partner site' referred to is seatfrog, and it implies there is a £2.50 charge or minimum. I also wonder if the ref to 10 mins before train departs in the below is a clue that the cheap Advance fare for the 17.47 ceased being available for you to buy 10 mins before your train, hence why you saw it but could not complete buying it in the short window of time you outlined in your original post. Not that any of this helps with the Penalty Fare of course.

Yes it seems to be because of the 10 minute threshold I'd gather - the OP states 17:40 for a 17:47 service. So presumably if the OP had tried to make the transaction just 5 minutes earlier it would have been fine.

A supremely annoying situation to deal with although one which is technically correct unfortunately for them.

 

[JTush94]

Yes it seems to be because of the 10 minute threshold I'd gather - the OP states 17:40 for a 17:47 service. So presumably if the OP had tried to make the transaction just 5 minutes earlier it would have been fine.

A supremely annoying situation to deal with although one which is technically correct unfortunately for them.

Especially frustrating when that 10 minute threshold isn't really communicated.

I guess at the centre of my frustrations is the human element behind such fines. It appears they're technically within their rights to issue the fine, I just struggle to see the motivation behind being so stringent in situations like these. No malice involved, no ticket dodging, no loss in revenue for Northern etc. Just a simple mistake punished heavily.

Anyway, thanks all for the insights! Really appreciate it.

 

[RPI]

I'm just wondering how the penalty fare was £102? The price on the notice should be £53.70 (£50.00+the applicable fare which is £3.70 by my reckoning)

 

[JTush94]

The 'partner site' referred to is seatfrog, and it implies there is a £2.50 charge or minimum. I also wonder if the ref to 10 mins before train departs in the below is a clue that the cheap Advance fare for the 17.47 ceased being available for you to buy 10 mins before your train, hence why you saw it but could not complete buying it in the short window of time you outlined in your original post. Not that any of this helps with the Penalty Fare of course.

Cheers! It my not help in this instance but still a useful peek behind the curtain for future reference...if I ever return to Northern that is. I'll be taking a personal strike of getting the bus into work from now on (a net negative for all involved!).

 

[RJ]

It may not be the nicest way for a customer with the right intentions to be treated, but if that price is advertised as sold out then that should be taken at face value.

It's worth putting in an appeal, but cancellation would be discretionary. I'd hope they'd use their discretion in this case if you explain the situation and send evidence of paying for the next train.

 

[Adam Williams]

Avanti services can show sold out if all the reservations are issued because they are flagged as reservation compulsory. Northern services aren't.

Yeah, I'd have expected a walk-up to be sold in this instance if an Advance was unavailable.

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Did the Trainine refuse to sell you any ticket for the 17:47 service? Did it offer you an anytime ticket?

Trainline make it very difficult to buy an anytime/off peak ticket for a service once the advance ones show as out of stock (when buying tickets for northern trains)

It’s a lengthy process where you have to go into the next available train, change the ticket type there, using the very small print and almost invisible side arrow, then select the correct type
Often if you’re running a little late this is difficult to do quickly and without the knowledge of “the next ones the same price so must be ok” when actually it’s really not ok

I’ve passed this up the chain to be looked into and see if feedback can be given to Trainline with the TOC I work for but haven’t heard anything back

It’s not an easy situation to deal with and leaves those who are genuinely not fare evading open to being penalty fared or more

Until Trainline offer the full range of tickets, even when advances have sold through it’s going to continue…

 

[Adam Williams]

Trainline make it very difficult to buy an anytime/off peak ticket for a service once the advance ones show as out of stock

On all TOCs, or those abusing the mandatory reservations flag?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trainline make it very difficult to buy an anytime/off peak ticket for a service once the advance ones show as out of stock

I just had a play, and it's certainly changed since I last used it, in that it takes you straight to payment rather than first going to a list of fares for that train. That's not a good change. The LNR app (a skinned older Trainline) gives you a list of fares once you've picked the train.

However, swapping to a different ticket isn't difficult. You tap the later train, then you tap "More tickets available from £3.70", then you choose the Anytime Day Single. It's two more taps.

Until Trainline offer the full range of tickets, even when advances have sold through it’s going to continue…

Er, they do.

 

[gray1404]

What date was the penalty fare issued on?

Are there any other ticket selling facilities at the station you started your journey?

What is the exact amount the penalty fare has been made out for?

 

[stuartl]

OP might have been better off not buying a ticket at all. Last week on Northern train from Sheffield to Wakefield, lady got on at Sheffield and bought a ticket on train, no problem, nothing said.

 

[Adam Williams]

edited.

I had a play and couldn't immediately reproduce this (but I also struggled to actually find a Northern service that had actually run out of Advance availability!)

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Below are some screenshots I previously used when raising the issue elsewhere…

Passenger wants to travel on 1003 service but advances are not available, you have to select the wrong train (1103), chose the small writing with small arrow to get to a correct ticket, then chose anytime day single…can’t say that’s an easy, fair way to buy the correct ticket and why should a passenger have to chose the wrong train to find the right ticket?!

If you’re an infrequent user, first timer or a regular user on a different route, why would you think to do this?

 

[WesternLancer]

It's worth putting in an appeal, but cancellation would be discretionary. I'd hope they'd use their discretion in this case if you explain the situation and send evidence of paying for the next train.

But (correct me if I am wrong) I thought Penalty Fare appeals were not done by the train company concerned but some external appeal process - who won't be minded to use discretion in favour of the customer - just implement the letter of the rules.

So unless I am wrong about that I doubt it would get anywhere.

But if I am wrong, then yes, the OP could give it a try

 

[Sheffcaster202]

I had a play and couldn't immediately reproduce this (but I also struggled to actually find a Northern service that had actually run out of Advance availability!)

It’s not that they are actually sold out, they’re withdrawn from sale 5 mins before departure but then not given the option to just purchase an anytime/off peak ticket instead
It just says tickets are unavailable to buy

 

[Adam Williams]

Below are some screenshots I previously used when raising the issue elsewhere…

Passenger wants to travel on 1003 service but advances are not available, you have to select the wrong train (1103), chose the small writing with small arrow to get to a correct ticket, then chose anytime day single…can’t say that’s an easy, fair way to buy the correct ticket and why should a passenger have to chose the wrong train to find the right ticket?!

If you’re an infrequent user, first timer or a regular user on a different route, why would you think to do this?

From your screenshots, it's "not available to buy" because it's marked as departed (under the 10:03) though. What am I missing?

It’s not that they are actually sold out, they’re withdrawn from sale 5 mins before departure but then not given the option to just purchase an anytime/off peak ticket instead

Right, I see what you mean. 5 minutes does seem like too long, but you do need to be careful here, as the purchase date/time gets encoded in the barcode and if it's after the service departure date/time you can get the customer in a bunch of trouble when their barcode gets scanned, as ttk will shout about it (purchase-before-travel policies). This applies even for walk-up tickets where the customer doesn't have any seat reservations, if the TIS chooses to encode the selected journey leg. Remember you have to account for the time spent typing in card details etc

Incidentally, when I try, it's still letting me purchase the 18:15 as late as 18:14

 

[WesternLancer]

It’s not that they are actually sold out, they’re withdrawn from sale 5 mins before departure but then not given the option to just purchase an anytime/off peak ticket instead
It just says tickets are unavailable to buy

Of so, a great way to turn away business from part filled trains!

Some users would then just reach for the car keys thinking 'the train was full'