How long do Northern class 319's have left?

[508-111]

Hi guys , I'm new here .

Does anyone know how long Northen 319's have left? (Not 769) and do you like them ?

Thank you

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hi guys , I'm new here . I thought this would be a brill place to talk about northern rail and hobbies such as planes , trucks , buses and trains . Does anyone know how long Northen 319's have left? (Not 769) and do you like them ? Thank you

It's very nice to have you here and it is indeed a great place for such discussion. I'm sure if you ask a member of the staff team they will permit a username tweak to add in the R to "Northern" which I assume was omitted by mistake.

Northern will continue to operate 319s on limited services in and out of Liverpool and Blackpool until the introduction of Class 730/0 trains to the Cross-City line in the West Midlands allows for West Midlands Railway's Class 323s to leave Birmingham and replace Northern's 319s. This isn't likely to be any time in the next few months, as the 730/0 will first work London Northwestern Railway services to allow the Class 319s there to be withdrawn, so the 323s will be required.

Seeing as you asked, no, I'm afraid I don't like them in the slightest, and would willingly deliberately miss one if the next service was a 331.

S-T-S / TT

 

[jfollows]

Northern's EMU diagrams, including those for the class 319, are posted at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2022-timetable-changes.231835/page-61#post-5938036
The 319s have been banished from Manchester-Crewe and are mainly to be found on Liverpool-Wigan services now, so that's good for the original poster.
I don't dislike them, I had a nice run Manchester Airport-Liverpool in the early days after electrification when they were a limited-stop service, but they're old and increasingly unreliable, for example the doors can fail in service which obviously delays the train until they're locked out of use. Their removal from my local services plus a revised timetable makes my local services significantly better and more reliable.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They've had a good innings, and have had the best part of a decade with Northern, replacing the awful 150s on most routes out of Liverpool.
But they don't compare well with new 331s.
323s are not much of an improvement, being almost as old as the 319s, without aircon, and with 2+3 seating.

 

[tbtc]

Compared to the 1980s DMUs that they directly replaced on routes like Liverpool - Wigan, they are perfectly decent units, now that Northern have got to grips with them - it took a frustrating length of time for local staff to understand these units and reliability suffered a lot in the first couple of years

Their reputation was poor in the early years as they struggled to get enough into service, every failed unit seemed to get a new thread on here at one point… but their reputation probably wasn’t helped by the “London cast-off” attitude that some had… but people seemed okay with Northern taking midlife trains from Scotrail/ Wales & Borders/ GWR etc without the sage kind of stigma)

They aren’t as nice as the 331s, sure, but given the decades of difference that’s hardly surprising.

I’m ambivalent between a 319 and 323 but some people have a real soft spot for 323s (maybe because they were built in northern England and many have spent their whole lives working there?) so I may be in a minority there

The bottom line for me is that we need additional EMUs to deal with additional electrification… The 319s were going spare so it made sense to try to squeeze a little life out of them before brand new trains arrived… same as happened with the 305s around Manchester before the 323s arrived in 1990… same as the 308s around Leeds before the 333s arrived… same as the 305s to North Berwick… none of those were amazing EMUs but they did the job in the short term… it’s just a shame that we didn’t poach a handful of experienced staff from Thameslink to train the local workforce better on how to handle these “experienced” trains… that might have meant the first couple of years went better

(Scares me that it’s been almost ten years though… I must be getting old!)

 

[AMD]

The 319s are currently looking at running with Northern until the December 2024 timetable change - as noted above it's all contingent upon the 730s coming into use in the West Midlands to free up the 323s from there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The 319s are currently looking at running with Northern until the December 2024 timetable change - as noted above it's all contingent upon the 730s coming into use in the West Midlands to free up the 323s from there.

Plus they will be there in 769 guise until there's a change on the bi-mode front.

 

[childwallblues]

The 319s work Liverpool to Wigan and Blackpool North services. They don't seem to rattle like 331s when on the WCML north of Wigan.

 

[GEC465]

But they don't compare well with new 331s.
323s are not much of an improvement, being almost as old as the 319s, without aircon, and with 2+3 seating.

323s have better acceleration which is good for commuter services rather than using the 0.58mp/s class 319

 

[LOL The Irony]

323s are not much of an improvement, being almost as old as the 319s, without aircon, and with 2+3 seating.

323s feel a lot newer, despite the oldest unit being built about 2-3 years after the newest 319. On stopping work, they are much better than a 319 as their acceleration is far superior to them and negates the 10mph difference in top speed. I remember that someone crunched the numbers here once and worked that if they had to have a race between Euxton Balshaw Lane and Preston, by the time the 319 caught up to the 323, they'd both have to brake for Preston.

Plus they will be there in 769 guise until there's a change on the bi-mode front.

With the 319s leaving Northern and all of the other operators replacing their 769s, it may only be a matter of time before they're replaced with new trains.

They don't seem to rattle like 331s when on the WCML north of Wigan.

They may not have as many audible knocks and bangs coming from the bogies, but the ride in the driving cars borders on pacer levels. Probably one of the few benefits of a 769 having engines.

 

[Neptune]

I’m ambivalent between a 319 and 323 but some people have a real soft spot for 323s (maybe because they were built in northern England and many have spent their whole lives working there?) so I may be in a minority there

319’s we’re built further north at York

 

[AMD]

With the 319s leaving Northern and all of the other operators replacing their 769s, it may only be a matter of time before they're replaced with new trains.

The Northern 769s are on lease until 2026.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The Northern 769s are on lease until 2026.

Sufficient time to find a more reliable replacement then.

 

[ic31420]

323s feel a lot newer, despite the oldest unit being built about 2-3 years after the newest 319. On stopping work, they are much better than a 319 as their acceleration is far superior to them and negates the 10mph difference in top speed. I remember that someone crunched the numbers here once and worked that if they had to have a race between Euxton Balshaw Lane and Preston, by the time the 319 caught up to the 323, they'd both have to brake for Preston.

Exactly that. For a long time the 323s were the best units Northern (and predecessors) had.

They're nippy, feel nippy and just get on with it.

I think the refurb was a missed opportunity to do more to modernise the interior and make them more 331esque. Beyond the interior, point to point most folk would be hard pushed to tell them apart.

Most passengers a wouldn't have a clue if they was build in Leeds, Leighton Buzzard or Lebanon.

 

[Bevan Price]

The only advantage of 319s is that they have greater capacity than 3 coach 323s or 331s. Some of the 3 coach trains on Liverpool / Manchester Airport services have been getting grossly overcrowded, even at off-peak hours, in recent months, and definitely need more than 3 coaches.

 

[RobShipway]

The only advantage of 319s is that they have greater capacity than 3 coach 323s or 331s. Some of the 3 coach trains on Liverpool / Manchester Airport services have been getting grossly overcrowded, even at off-peak hours, in recent months, and definitely need more than 3 coaches.

Once the class 730/0's on the Cross City have started to bed in and the WMT class 323 units that are moving to Northern have started to move across, I have no doubt that the class 323 units will be used in multiple where possible as it is currently done on the Cross City line.

 

[HammerDown154]

Too long! As a commuter I detest them. 2,3 seating, no tables, sat so low. They were old and “cream crackered” when they came up North! I appreciate the reasons and better to have them under the wires. But, just shows we are the poor relations when it comes to capital expenditure and investment in, well basically everything!

 

[507 001]

The only advantage of 319s is that they have greater capacity than 3 coach 323s or 331s. Some of the 3 coach trains on Liverpool / Manchester Airport services have been getting grossly overcrowded, even at off-peak hours, in recent months, and definitely need more than 3 coaches.

Shouldn’t be a problem if/when the platform extensions are sorted.

 

[childwallblues]

The only advantage of 319s is that they have greater capacity than 3 coach 323s or 331s. Some of the 3 coach trains on Liverpool / Manchester Airport services have been getting grossly overcrowded, even at off-peak hours, in recent months, and definitely need more than 3 coaches.

Yes with the swap in units the Chat Moss line seems to use 331 or 323 now. It would help if Northern re-instated the 30 minute service on the line by bringing back the LIV-WBQ stoppers to relieve pressure on stations from Earlestown into Lime Street. There is no shortage of emus in the north west.

 

[diligentdave]

The 319s are currently looking at running with Northern until the December 2024 timetable change - as noted above it's all contingent upon the 730s coming into use in the West Midlands to free up the 323s from there.

319's will be gone by December 2023. The 323's are coming.....

 

[Geeves]

Good news on the 323s but I will be sad to see the 319s go especially at my home station where after so many years of waiting they heralded in the new electric order vice 142s!

Also the good news is that 323s should be relatively easy to introduce with the Liverpool traincrew depot already signing the traction and routes they are mostly on now. Someone was thinking ahead! I guess Wigan and Victoria will be needing to sign 323s eventually too.

 

[jonesy3001]

Will it be all the 323s from wmt, now that the international depot can accommodate 9 323s?

 

[8A Rail]

Yes with the swap in units the Chat Moss line seems to use 331 or 323 now. It would help if Northern re-instated the 30 minute service on the line by bringing back the LIV-WBQ stoppers to relieve pressure on stations from Earlestown into Lime Street. There is no shortage of emus in the north west.

I totally agree with your highlighted comment.

The hourly Liverpool LS to Manchester stoppers are diagramed for 3 car Class 323 and 331 units and have been since the December timetable change. Northern decided to base the four car Class 319's on the St Helens Central line along increased frequency too. You got to ask were is the logical in Northern's thinking in that change clearly in the best interest of the passenger not (on the L&M line)! Sadly I rarely use the trains on the L&M line because of the one hour frequency, along with most of the trains being crowded too. Rather use my car instead!

 

[AMD]

319's will be gone by December 2023. The 323's are coming.....

Unless something drastic happens in the next few months the 319s won't be gone, the first few West Midlands 323s may have arrived, but that's all. There are no plans at our depot for 323 training in the plan, to be ready for December 23 TT change, which would pretty much screw up the electric timetable in the NW due to the amount of 319 work we cover.

 

[Geeves]

DSM at Vic seems to think training on 323s is coming soon. Dave is normally pretty reliable with his information

 

[scrapy]

I've heard that the exchange of 3 and 4 car 331s across the Pennines will definitely be taking place for December 2023. (3 cars heading east to form 6 car trains, 4 car units all moving west) Will cost Northern in the region of £6,000 per unit to move them.

Liverpool to Manchester Airport will all be 4 car 331s with 323s no longer used on this route except possibly the odd service for stock movement. 323s to be used on Liverpool to Wigan stoppers from December.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I've heard that the exchange of 3 and 4 car 331s across the Pennines will definitely be taking place for December 2023. (3 cars heading east to form 6 car trains, 4 car units all moving west) Will cost Northern in the region of £6,000 per unit to move them.

Liverpool to Manchester Airport will all be 4 car 331s with 323s no longer used on this route except possibly the odd service for stock movement. 323s to be used on Liverpool to Wigan stoppers from December.

Can't wait for the Airport - Blackpool services during the school holidays!

 

[jonesy3001]

I've heard that the exchange of 3 and 4 car 331s across the Pennines will definitely be taking place for December 2023. (3 cars heading east to form 6 car trains, 4 car units all moving west) Will cost Northern in the region of £6,000 per unit to move them.

Liverpool to Manchester Airport will all be 4 car 331s with 323s no longer used on this route except possibly the odd service for stock movement. 323s to be used on Liverpool to Wigan stoppers from December.

How's that going to work when none of the platforms on the airedale and wharfedale lines haven't been extended, also they interwork.

 

[185143]

They've had a good innings, and have had the best part of a decade with Northern, replacing the awful 150s on most routes out of Liverpool.
But they don't compare well with new 331s.
323s are not much of an improvement, being almost as old as the 319s, without aircon, and with 2+3 seating.

I remember travelling on one on their first day on Northern.

Thanks, I feel ancient now!

 

[diligentdave]

Unless something drastic happens in the next few months the 319s won't be gone, the first few West Midlands 323s may have arrived, but that's all. There are no plans at our depot for 323 training in the plan, to be ready for December 23 TT change, which would pretty much screw up the electric timetable in the NW due to the amount of 319 work we cover.

I didn't say that the ex-WMT 323's would be used, current plan is that they're not going to be used until Dec 24.....but, the 319's are going.