Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[8A Rail]

Are you seriously suggesting people won't like the 230s just because they operate in Merseyside?

If so, what a ridiculous comment.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==

Bonkers comment.

No he is not. The words 'dig at' were in the context, anyone and everyone will 'pick' on a new train for one reason or another even if its working perfectly!

Pleased do not take some peoples comments too seriously!

 

[Techniquest]

Not true, I loved the 745s, 755s and 231s straight away. Same for the 196s and 197s. They're all superior to the 777s! I'd rather sit on the solid plastic seats of the Brussels Metro!

 

[jamesst]

Pretty certain that once the 777s start running properly- & the issues will be ironed out- passenger figures will if anything go up, regardless of what a few spotters on here say.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not true, I loved the 745s, 755s and 231s straight away. Same for the 196s and 197s. They're all superior to the 777s! I'd rather sit on the solid plastic seats of the Brussels Metro!

I thought the same. The problem with the 777 isn't hard seats, it's oddly shaped seats.

 

[prod_pep]

Agreed. One of the least sensible posts I've seen this month so far.

@prod_pep I hope you don't mind my asking, is your alternative to MerseyRail going to be Arriva/Stagecoach? If so that's a rather damning view of the 777s, although I really can't blame you there. I think I would look to use buses to/from Liverpool on the Southport route too, unless my journey was possible by foot/cycle.

It will be the car, Techniquest. I've tried the bus on a few occasions but as a daily commute it isn't for me, nor are the 777s. I'm not convinced the 777s will be the draw some people think they will be; time will tell.

 

[Skie]

They’re designed to swallow up large crowds that the pep fleet can’t handle. Many regular commuters will never get seats anyway on existing services so whilst it would have been nice to have had luxurious seats, I’m willing to bet people will be happy with more space, faster journeys and air-conditioning.

The existing fleet is unbearable at rush hour in the summer, verging on actively dangerous, and a definite disincentive to travelling via rail. Have seen a few comments that the hard seats are softening up already, too, so even that might cease to be an issue other than for oddly shaped people like @Bletchleyite

 

[Bletchleyite]

The existing fleet is unbearable at rush hour in the summer, verging on actively dangerous

Not in 6 car formation. When Merseyrail had enough trains to run 6 car services on all lines from 6-10am and 3-7pm there was never a problem, and commuting and thus peak usage is down, not up.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==

The existing fleet is unbearable at rush hour in the summer, verging on actively dangerous, and a definite disincentive to travelling via rail. Have seen a few comments that the hard seats are softening up already, too, so even that might cease to be an issue other than for oddly shaped people like @Bletchleyite

The shape is an issue for long bodied tall people, not just me. I don't mind hard seats. The hard plastic seats on the Istanbul Metro are, to me, more comfortable.

 

[prod_pep]

Not in 6 car formation. When Merseyrail had enough trains to run 6 car services on all lines from 6-10am and 3-7pm there was never a problem, and commuting and thus peak usage is down, not up.

Quite right and further cuts to six car services in recent years due to withdrawing stock without immediate replacement does not help. I can think of at least six peak time services which have been cut to three car over the last couple of years. The 0813 Southport - Hunts Cross and 1621 Hunts Cross - Southport reductions are the most egregious of these.

 

[Skie]

Not in 6 car formation. When Merseyrail had enough trains to run 6 car services on all lines from 6-10am and 3-7pm there was never a problem, and commuting and thus peak usage is down, not up.

I’ve suffered many rammed 6 cars over the years when I was unfortunate enough to need to leave work at 5pm. The Southport line regularly saw back to back 6 car working but standing room only from Moorfields to Waterloo.

The additional peak services really did help, but sadly those went a long time ago. But recent times have changed commuting and nobody is quite sure. I’ve noticed the roads are busy midweek but dead on Fridays.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite right and further cuts to six car services in recent years due to withdrawing stock without immediate replacement does not help. I can think of at least six peak time services which have been cut to three car over the last couple of years. The 0813 Southport - Hunts Cross and 1621 Hunts Cross - Southport reductions are the most egregious of these.

That's bad, those are clearly high-peak trains.

What's gone on here is ordering a standee train so they could get away with ordering too few trains.

 

[507 001]

anyone and everyone will 'pick' on a new train for one reason

Sometimes maybe. I for one happen to really like 331s for example, flaws and all.

Have seen a few comments that the hard seats are softening up already

They’re really not. And for what it’s worth it’s not just the hardness, I find the seats on an M5000 to be quite comfy despite being relatively hard, but the uprightness too.

What's gone on here is ordering a standee train so they could get away with ordering too few trains.

I’ve said right from the beginning that many people who would get a seat on a 6 will suddenly find themselves standing on a 4.

 

[Vespa]

The problem with the 777 isn't hard seats, it's oddly shaped seats.

That has been my observation airline and double facing fixed dear are fine (to me at least)

Its the pull up double facing seat that seems to be the problem putting pressure on the tailbone, hopefully hundreds of people sitting on them will eventually mold them into something resembling a human bum shaped indention.

 

[urbophile]

I thought the same. The problem with the 777 isn't hard seats, it's oddly shaped seats.

Depends on the shape of your body I suppose. I find the tall seat backs of the 507/8s uncomfortable. I've not sat on one of the 777s long enough to feel uncomfortable, but they feel less oppressive.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Forget the seats, there's a broken down train at Kirkby this afternoon so the line is closed beyond Rice Lane.
I'm presuming it's a 777.

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A fault on a train at Kirkby means that all lines are currently closed. As a result, trains running to / from this station will be cancelled or revised to start / terminate at Rice Lane.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on the shape of your body I suppose.

It's height. The seat top curves forward, which is probably good for people whose head is roughly at the vertical centre of the headrest. But this is a flawed design - you need to design a seat so it is comfortable for something like the 95th percentile of people. The railway very often fails at this, spectacularly in this case. The simpler the seat, the more likely it is to suit a wider range of people.

The problem with these seems to be that the seat frame and headrest were fixed in stone before the mock-up was done (this happens far too often; the mockup should be done before any contracts are signed bar the basic high level one with the train manufacturer, such that anything found to be a problem can be corrected properly). I reported the protruding headrest as being very uncomfortable when I tried the mockup, and assumed that'd be fixed by moving it back or using an entirely different design such as the Fainsa Comrail "ironing board", which manages a flat high back without curving and reducing claustrophobia as it narrows at the top. It's hard, but so are these. What they actually did was an utter bodge - make the upper cushion thicker to "bury" the protruding headrest. This is even worse!

I find the tall seat backs of the 507/8s uncomfortable. I've not sat on one of the 777s long enough to feel uncomfortable, but they feel less oppressive.

Low backed seats are fine. I don't (other than legroom) have a problem with most bus seats, for example.

Indeed the new Merseytravel bus interior looks properly smart and comfortable - loads better than the trains!

 

[Liverpool 507]

Forget the seats, there's a broken down train at Kirkby this afternoon so the line is closed beyond Rice Lane.
I'm presuming it's a 777.

Find details of current incidents | National Rail

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Insulator pot explosion on the bridge over the M57 was the first incident. Looks like 777008 is the offender again here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Insulator pot explosion on the bridge over the M57 was the first incident. Looks like 777008 is the offender again here.

According to a guy on Twitter, presumably because it had already passed Kirkdale a 777 was sent up to Aintree in service to reverse, so (part of) the Ormskirk branch has now seen one!

 

[Sam 76]

777049 has revived a bit of a special livery I guess you could call it for Eurovision. Stickers above each of the doors

 

[urbophile]

Insulator pot explosion on the bridge over the M57 was the first incident. Looks like 777008 is the offender again here.

I was at Central station around 13.30 when the Kirkby train was suddenly diverted to Aintree. The announcement mentioned a 'bridge strike' (road vehicle strikes bridge?) which suggested that the 777 was a victim rather than culprit. Maybe this is more accurate up to date info.

 

[Techniquest]

I thought the same. The problem with the 777 isn't hard seats, it's oddly shaped seats.

And PIS that doesn't work properly I found. The seats are the strangest I've used in a long time.

It will be the car, Techniquest. I've tried the bus on a few occasions but as a daily commute it isn't for me, nor are the 777s. I'm not convinced the 777s will be the draw some people think they will be; time will tell.

Fair enough. A shame a car driver has been encouraged back onto the roads though!

I do hope when I eventually return to Merseyside that my next 777 experience will be better, but it will be a long time coming. A shame, as I had so looked forward to the 777s!

 

[Liverpool 507]

777049 has revived a bit of a special livery I guess you could call it for Eurovision. Stickers above each of the doors

Are there any photos of 049?

 

[Sam 76]

Are there any photos of 049?

I didn’t get one sorry it passed as I was changing in Sandhills. If I see it again I’ll try and get one

 

[185143]

Are there any photos of 049?

Screenshot from my video of it earlier.

There's three stickers along the middle carriages, one for each "third" and two on the end carriages, one between the doors and the cab, the other where the second set of doors would be.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Agreed. One of the least sensible posts I've seen this month so far.

@prod_pep I hope you don't mind my asking, is your alternative to MerseyRail going to be Arriva/Stagecoach? If so that's a rather damning view of the 777s, although I really can't blame you there. I think I would look to use buses to/from Liverpool on the Southport route too, unless my journey was possible by foot/cycle.

I am local and disagree witb the pessimists.. The hard sests I believe are due to modern safety standard in tunnels. Great to see level boarding for wheelchair users full visability thru trains (much safer), on board camera images on screens in saloon. All goid for the future

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am local and disagree witb the pessimists.. The hard sests I believe are due to modern safety standard in tunnels. Great to see level boarding for wheelchair users full visability thru trains (much safer), on board camera images on screens in saloon. All goid for the future

The issue, once again, isn't that the seats are hard (though the ones on S stock and 345s aren't, so that proves that one untrue). It's the shape of them which is unnatural for tall people due to a bodge to half fix the headrest issue that was flagged at mockup stage, presumably because they signed the contracts for the seats too early and couldn't change them once it was found that they had a major fault in the design.

I don't think I would switch to bus, it could be worked around by e.g. sitting sideways across two seats with back against the window as I have to on other units designed badly for tall people like 153s, but for all the shouting about these things being amazing they really are quite, well, average.

Level boarding is certainly a killer app, as it were, but I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone with Stadler, the issues are almost entirely with matters that Stadler will quite happily change for you (and equally you can fit the stuff like the screens on any unit - though I think the Class 700 PIS is hugely better - and pretty much all regional stock is now "walk through"). It's Merseyrail who have designed an utterly mediocre interior.

I would certainly say TfW and Greater Anglia have got the interiors far closer to right.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

The issue, once again, isn't that the seats are hard (though the ones on S stock and 345s aren't, so that proves that one untrue). It's the shape of them which is unnatural for tall people due to a bodge to half fix the headrest issue that was flagged at mockup stage, presumably because they signed the contracts for the seats too early and couldn't change them once it was found that they had a major fault in the design.

I don't think I would switch to bus, it could be worked around by e.g. sitting sideways across two seats with back against the window as I have to on other units designed badly for tall people like 153s, but for all the shouting about these things being amazing they really are quite, well, average.

Level boarding is certainly a killer app, as it were, but I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone with Stadler, the issues are almost entirely with matters that Stadler will quite happily change for you (and equally you can fit the stuff like the screens on any unit - though I think the Class 700 PIS is hugely better - and pretty much all regional stock is now "walk through"). It's Merseyrail who have designed an utterly mediocre interior.

I would certainly say TfW and Greater Anglia have got the interiors far closer to right.

Does cut and cover on LU versus deep level Merseyrail Mersey tunnel and Moorfields Wirral line affect the rules. Thst might affect material that can be used. Only going off what merseytravel have said previously

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does cut and cover on LU versus deep level Merseyrail Mersey tunnel and Moorfields Wirral line affect the rules. Thst might affect material that can be used. Only going off what merseytravel have said previously

The Elizabeth Line is not cut and cover, it is a proper tunnel.

 

[irish_rail]

The issue, once again, isn't that the seats are hard (though the ones on S stock and 345s aren't, so that proves that one untrue). It's the shape of them which is unnatural for tall people due to a bodge to half fix the headrest issue that was flagged at mockup stage, presumably because they signed the contracts for the seats too early and couldn't change them once it was found that they had a major fault in the design.

I don't think I would switch to bus, it could be worked around by e.g. sitting sideways across two seats with back against the window as I have to on other units designed badly for tall people like 153s, but for all the shouting about these things being amazing they really are quite, well, average.

Level boarding is certainly a killer app, as it were, but I'm not saying they shouldn't have gone with Stadler, the issues are almost entirely with matters that Stadler will quite happily change for you (and equally you can fit the stuff like the screens on any unit - though I think the Class 700 PIS is hugely better - and pretty much all regional stock is now "walk through"). It's Merseyrail who have designed an utterly mediocre interior.

I would certainly say TfW and Greater Anglia have got the interiors far closer to right.

If true (and I haven't travelled on one) something needs to be done. The world is getting taller. Its quite noticeable how much taller young people are now compared with 30 years ago. If these trains have a 30 year life then alot of people will be adversely affected. From the comments you have made on this post the seat for a tall person really does sound really awful, as personally (although not massive) i find having my head forced forward unnaturally causes me slight travel sickness and nausea.

 

[Pacef8]

Kirkby line:

• 0613 Kirkby - Liverpool is cancelled
• 0635 Liverpool Central - Kirkby is cancelled

 

[Parjon]

Any word on what the problem is?