[Proposal] The Wickstead Link

[gsc777]

So I've been thinking about this rail proposal for a while, especially after my disappointment at the lack of an Elizabeth Line station at London City Airport (which was a perfect and completely missed opportunity, in my opinion!). Stanstead and Gatwick are both pretty well connected into London individually via their peripheral London terminuses (Liverpool Street and Victoria respectively) but I have realised that there is a perfect opportunity to connect surrounding areas of London and Greater London, such as Croydon and Harlow, directly to the TfL network, with this link. The focus is less on providing a direct link between Stanstead and Gatwick, which would probably be quicker by changing at Liverpool Street and getting the Circle Line to Victoria or vice versa, but rather on providing a connection for these outer areas through London, particularly the poorly-serviced South London, rather than being left to the miserable mercy of Southern, Thameslink or Greater Anglia services, which these London areas simply do not deserve. It would also provide another great North-South service, in contrast to the many East-West services that already exist, including the amazing new Elizabeth Line.

I have attached a link to map I have made exploring the potential route below, which for the most part already works upon pre-existing railway tracks used by Southern, Thameslink, Greater Anglia and the London Overground. Of course, I'd love to hear feedback (try and be constructive and positive as well as critical, please! Though the criticism is greatly appreciated) and any suggestions for how this could be developed, made more feasible and so forth, especially any suggestions on the route it could take to connect London Victoria to London Liverpool Street, as well as suggestions for stations that should, or shouldn't, be considered as part of the line.

Thank you guys, and I look forward to reading the commentary!

Link to the Wickstead Link map!

 

[bspahh]

I thought this was going to be a link here

 

[gsc777]

I thought this was going to be a link here

admittedly I didn't put a lot of thought or research into the name! name suggestions are welcome too!

 

[JonathanH]

Some of those curves are not the stuff of a modern railway. Is it a tram route?

 

[gsc777]

Some of those curves are not the stuff of a modern railway. Is it a tram route?

The curves are pretty arbitrary - anything that's not on a pre-existing railway track is just me getting a little creative, haha! As I said, the route through London from Victoria to Liverpool Street is extremely subject to change and ideas!

 

[Topological]

I also wanted a link to the wild animal park.

Why would the link be Victoria to Liverpool Street? Is this purely because the present Gatwick Express goes to Victoria?

Would it be sensible to explore connections with the East London Line? That would miss central London though. I assume here tunnels to make a grade separated junction. In terms of cost, the OP includes central London tunnels, so a grade separated junction should be much cheaper.

 

[PGAT]

Why does the route go via Streatham Hill instead of Norbury?

How do you intend on going underground at Victoria and Liverpool Street?

Is it express or not?

 

[gsc777]

I also wanted a link to the wild animal park.

Why would the link be Victoria to Liverpool Street? Is this purely because the present Gatwick Express goes to Victoria?

Would it be sensible to explore connections with the East London Line? That would miss central London though. I assume here tunnels to make a grade separated junction. In terms of cost, the OP includes central London tunnels, so a grade separated junction should be much cheaper.

Thank you so much for your response!

Firstly, I suppose I had just followed the Gatwick route to Victoria, though I could easily explore connections via Waterloo instead. As a South Londoner, I value the airport link at Clapham Junction, hence why it just felt natural to go through Victoria. In terms of Liverpool Street, a similar situation with the current Stanstead Express line, though tracks do suggest that a connection to Tottenham Hale via Stratford does exist, which could provide an alternative route. Grade separated junctions with the Elizabeth line would probably prove to be easiest and cheapest here.

I had originally intended for the line to follow the East London Line through Norwood Junction up to New Cross Gate, before branching off to London Bridge and providing a central London connection through there, before deciding I'd prefer Clapham Junction to be on the line. Alternatively, we could explore an East London Line connection up to Whitechapel, then joining the Elizabeth Line into central London as far as Liverpool Street and then making its way up to Stanstead through there.

I had also considered, from Clapham Junction, following the North London Line up to Willesden Junction, before joining the Watford DC Line into Euston, and then continuing through central London via Kings Cross St Pancras into Liverpool Street or Stratford, and then making its way up to Tottenham Hale.

I'd love to keep discussing with you!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Apr 2023 ==

Why does the route go via Streatham Hill instead of Norbury?

How do you intend on going underground at Victoria and Liverpool Street?

Is it express or not?

Thank you so much for your response!

Firstly, it would it help Streatham, a prominent area of London, to make its way onto the Tube network. However, whilst being an added bonus, the main reason this happened is down to me valuing Norwood Junction as a station, and I had thought the Norwood Junction to Clapham Junction link to be stronger. The Selhurst to Clapham Junction link would be equally feasible though! The Norwood Junction link would also allow explorations via the East London Line, as hinted by another user.

Let me answer the third question first: I had intended for it not to be an express line between the two airports: I had intended for it more to service the peripheral areas of North and South London, similarly to how the Elizabeth Line explores North-eastern London (Stratford to Shenfield) and West London (Paddington to Reading). The airports were chosen really as they both have potential to be a prominent, renowned terminus each.

Central London is really the primary difficulty here! It isn't essential for there to be a crazy number of stops, but it would naturally be beneficial to have so anyways. I explored with another user here the prospects of Waterloo, London Bridge and Stratford as all being connections if the Victoria to Liverpool Street connection is unrealistic. In any case, it would probably be most sensible to join the Elizabeth Line tracks via grade separated junctions, which would be most cost-effective.

 

[Magdalia]

I haven't looked at your map, but I have looked at the Crossrail 2 map, which shows a new railway between Clapham Junction and Tottenham Hale. A lot of time and expert knowledge has gone into those plans, and they seem to meet most of your objectives.

 

[Topological]

My concern is that there is an aim to serve multiple London termini. Connection of Kings Cross/St Pancras, Liverpool Street and Victoria needs to be via different routes rather than all on the same route.

I suspect that the Crossrail 2 map identifies the pairs which are most in need of connection.

To my mind the Victoria line does Victoria to Kings Cross/St Pancras and Euston very well.

 

[Magdalia]

To my mind the Victoria line does Victoria to Kings Cross/St Pancras and Euston very well.

Also Victoria to Tottenham Hale and Seven Sisters.

 

[Bartsimho]

It just looks like Thameslink with extra steps. Maybe bring GTL under TFL control first and then other new connections could be built around that instead.

I would maintain that train service in South London is actually quite good it just doesn't have the publicity as TFL (rightly or wrongly) only advertise their own services.

 

[gsc777]

It just looks like Thameslink with extra steps. Maybe bring GTL under TFL control first and then other new connections could be built around that instead.

I would maintain that train service in South London is actually quite good it just doesn't have the publicity as TFL (rightly or wrongly) only advertise their own services.

The South London and South England areas are definitely in parallel with the Thameslink line, which does provide route options! I had hoped for this to be more of a through-London connection to the North, and especially since the North-west areas are covered by the Thameslink route, this route could provide more connection into North-eastern London.

The train service is good for what it is i.e. National Rail Services, but considering huge areas of London are simply lost by TfL train services (Streatham, Croydon, Sutton, Kingston, Feltham and areas in the South-east such as Bromley & Hayes and beyond), I had envisioned this to be a definitive way of linking the South, as well as those Northern areas in Hertfordshire, into the London network in a prominent way that guaranteed that level of frequency and publicity paralleled to the Tube or Elizabeth Line services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

I haven't looked at your map, but I have looked at the Crossrail 2 map, which shows a new railway between Clapham Junction and Tottenham Hale. A lot of time and expert knowledge has gone into those plans, and they seem to meet most of your objectives.

I've taken a look at the Crossrail 2 map now, and I agree in how it fulfils most of my objectives! On a personal level, I would like to see the extension of Wimbledon to Epsom to run via the Mitcham Junction/Sutton route via the Motspur Park line, but they've probably taken this into consideration.

The Clapham Junction to Euston connection seems fantastic! Definitely better envisioning than my attempt at a Victoria to Kings Cross connection. Perhaps the Hackney Central branch could flow into Stratford and then beyond towards Barking, which would greatly help c2c's current capacity crisis.

Whilst I don't know at a tunnelling/spatial level, there is potential for a connection from Waterloo to Fenchurch Street, which could also provide connection ideas!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2023 ==

My concern is that there is an aim to serve multiple London termini. Connection of Kings Cross/St Pancras, Liverpool Street and Victoria needs to be via different routes rather than all on the same route.

I suspect that the Crossrail 2 map identifies the pairs which are most in need of connection.

To my mind the Victoria line does Victoria to Kings Cross/St Pancras and Euston very well.

I suppose trying to connect so many termini was a tad bit idealistic and yes, I've looked at the Crossrail 2 map, and their connection between Clapham Junction and Euston is much better than anything I could have come up with!

 

[Bartsimho]

The South London and South England areas are definitely in parallel with the Thameslink line, which does provide route options! I had hoped for this to be more of a through-London connection to the North, and especially since the North-west areas are covered by the Thameslink route, this route could provide more connection into North-eastern London.

The train service is good for what it is i.e. National Rail Services, but considering huge areas of London are simply lost by TfL train services (Streatham, Croydon, Sutton, Kingston, Feltham and areas in the South-east such as Bromley & Hayes and beyond), I had envisioned this to be a definitive way of linking the South, as well as those Northern areas in Hertfordshire, into the London network in a prominent way that guaranteed that level of frequency and publicity paralleled to the Tube or Elizabeth Line services.

While the Publicity is definitely needed I don't think the frequency is as important as people are making longer journeys rather than the short journeys of Central London. Even on the Northern edges of TFL's network such as from West Ruislip to central it's about every 5-10 minutes in the middle of the day while if I take Raynes Park in South London there is a service to central every 7 minutes.

The link through from South to North is a bit more tricky but so is the service from West to East. The idea of London service is that the vast majority wants to go from the suburbs to the centre and extra links all the way through should be rarer. The Elizabeth Line now covers West to East and Thameslink with it's Core covered South to North.

You point out the North-East of London but you have the Lea Valley lines into Liverpool Street, The ECML has Thameslink services to Cambridge through to Brighton as well. Those service patterns and the service layout look fairly good but they could do with some more publicity (something the entire rail network needs)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm afraid, based on your starting post and the map you link to, I don't understand what you're proposing to build? Could you clarify - ideally by simply stating what your proposals are? The map seems to show a mixture of various existing national rail and tube lines plus something that seems to follow roughly follow the proposed Crossrail2 within central London. And I'm confused because you talk in your starting post about London City Airport, but the map doesn't show anything going anywhere near London City Airport?