Borderlands Line - Wrexham to Bidston Closures

[D821]

After reading this thread, I just did some googling to find where Seacombe station was. It does seem from Google maps that this is one old line that has been completely obliterated. Interesting bit of history.

Incidentally, the Seacombe station wikipedia page states:



But looking on Google maps, I can't find any such road in Seacombe. Anyone know if this entry is correct? (There's a Church Crescent but it doesn't have a supermarket on it)

I'd assumed the supermarket the article referred to was the old KwikSave, that's now the Home Bargains store on the A554. The only wall I could see was on Luke St:

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

Having checked the Disused Railway Stations entry that the Wikipedia article cites, there's nothing to support the article's claim about the wall being visible from Church Road or facing the roundabout. I've removed this from the Wikipedia article.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

After reading this thread, I just did some googling to find where Seacombe station was. It does seem from Google maps that this is one old line that has been completely obliterated. Interesting bit of history.

Incidentally, the Seacombe station wikipedia page states:



But looking on Google maps, I can't find any such road in Seacombe. Anyone know if this entry is correct? (There's a Church Crescent but it doesn't have a supermarket on it)

Church Rd is also known as the A554. Home and Bargain (as local know it) is located on the station site, with a wall of the original sttation at end of their car park. It used to be a kwik save supermarket

 

[Requeststop]

My Mother who is 98 years old next month, and was brought up in Mill Lane, Wallasey, recalls vividly, trains at Liscard/Poulton Station, close to her home in 1958, but cannot remember the service routes from back then. I can remember from my visits to family back in the day travelling from Wallasey Village station down the mid Wirral to Chester direct, and then returning via Hawarden Bridge, changing and travelling back to Wallasey Village. I still have the railway map of the UK from the National timetable which I started to shade in the lines covered during rail journeys that I made from the age of 6 or so. For some reason, I have had a fondness for the rail lines of the Wirral. For me as a youngster from West Cornwall, to travel so far from home by rail was the start of my love of railways.

There is a very interesting history of the Bidston-Wrexham/Chester services of the past. How the line is controlled and used today should be vastly improved from what I read and understand. It seems a shame that the line cannot be jointly owned by Merseyrail and TfW, as other rail lines were in the past. I think of other Joint Railway companies from way back. Investment in improvement of lines, stations and services could be of great benefit to the companies and travellers over the area.

 

[071]

But looking on Google maps, I can't find any such road in Seacombe. Anyone know if this entry is correct? (There's a Church Crescent but it doesn't have a supermarket on it)

Church Road is what Google Maps labels simply as the A554.
Here's an old map showing the station location and Church Road.



The large building to the left of the "C" in Church Road is where Home Bargains is today. The lines to Seacombe station ran through what is now part of the car park and access road.

 

[Mogz]

As I recall, if you stand in front of the Seacombe Ferry Terminal (which is still there) and turn 180 degrees, you can see some of the wall which formed part of the station perimeter, but that’s literally all that’s left… or so I was told at the time…

 

[Pacef8]

I think these are what people are referring to and yes the back end of the car park does have a bridge parapet wall . It now forms the mersey road tunnel .

 

[Birkonian]

I think these are what people are referring to and yes the back end of the car park does have a bridge parapet wall . It now forms the mersey road tunnel .

I often used to look at thst section of wall which is clearly from the old railway. For those that don't know, Mersey Tunnels used the railway cutting for the route of the road approach to the Wallasey Tunnel.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Church Road is what Google Maps labels simply as the A554.
Here's an old map showing the station location and Church Road.

View attachment 131811

The large building to the left of the "C" in Church Road is where Home Bargains is today. The lines to Seacombe station ran through what is now part of the car park and access road.

Ah, thanks! That's super-helpful

 

[L401CJF]

Realtime trains is showing rail replacement buses on the line for tomorrow (31/03) but shows as trains running Saturday 01/04, Sunday 2nd and Monday 3rd.

Can't be certain how far in advance they've shown the replacement services and whether it may yet change.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

Has anybody got a clue what TFW are planning for next week on the Borderlands line. Yesterday Realtime trains showing class 230 running, on Sat 1st, Pathing for 150 on Sun 2nd, class 230s delivering full service on Monday 3rd. Today it shows 230 doing what looks like a full train service and bizarely Buses on Sat 1st, Buses on 2nd, and now Buses on 3rd. People in the know have suggested 1 x 230 running from Mon 3rd. The lack of clarity is alarming, all they say is issues up to 23:59 on 1st April on theur changes page.

How are passengers supposed to plan their commutes? I suppose that means driving the other half to Spital on Merseyrail for another week, so I can have the car during school half term. It's a great way to lose customer, which will never come back, Meanwhile we see yet again a fairly normal service in the Valleys. Don't they have an obligation to serve their Flintshire, Wrexham County Boro and English Customers with trains into Liverpol City region and Wrexham or are South Wales customers to Cardiff much more important

 

[L401CJF]

Has anybody got a clue what TFW are planning for next week on the Borderlands line. Yesterday Realtime trains showing class 230 running, on Sat 1st, Pathing for 150 on Sun 2nd, class 230s delivering full service on Monday 3rd. Today it shows 230 doing what looks like a full train service and bizarely Buses on Sat 1st, Buses on 2nd, and now Buses on 3rd. People in the know have suggested 1 x 230 running from Mon 3rd. The lack of clarity is alarming, all they say is issues up to 23:59 on 1st April on theur changes page.

How are passengers supposed to plan their commutes? I suppose that means driving the other half to Spital on Merseyrail for another week, so I can have the car during school half term. It's a great way to lose customer, which will never come back, Meanwhile we see yet again a fairly normal service in the Valleys. Don't they have an obligation to serve their Flintshire, Wrexham County Boro and English Customers with trains into Liverpol City region and Wrexham or are South Wales customers to Cardiff much more important

Latest plan is for a 230 to run 1 diagram all day Monday to Friday, making a 2 hour frequency. Every hour in between will be a replacement bus.

 

[Requeststop]

What's the point of a 2 hourly frequency replacement bus service when the bus service takes 2 hours to cover the same journey an hour earlier? Very few passengers are going to get an improved service by using the bus alternative especially along the much used stations at each end of the line?

 

[Taunton]

But looking on Google maps, I can't find any such road in Seacombe. Anyone know if this entry is correct? (There's a Church Crescent but it doesn't have a supermarket on it)

When we moved from Somerset to the Wirral Seacombe station had closed, but the empty site was still there. It was about 10 years later that the alignment was taken for the approach to the second Mersey Tunnel, but by the station site this is underground. I think diesels never worked there, but took over the day Seacombe closed, with trains diverted to New Brighton. Most passengers from the Borderlands line had transferred for Liverpool at Bidston ever since the Wirral lines were electrified and trains now ran through, in 1938.

The reference is to the car park of the Home Bargains store; Church Street is the north-south road it is on, which curves round from the ferry terminal and eventually becomes Brighton Street. At the west end of the car park there is a short stone wall against Luke Street, which has all the appearance of having been the original parapet of a railway bridge. I guess because of all the substantial civils works on the tunnel it was rebuilt there rather than untouched.

My father's business was in Seacombe, which was then a thriving neighbourhood, with all the borough buses centred on the ferry terminal. Fortunately we didn't buy a house there, as over the years following it went into a very substantial decline. Many of the inhabitants had been involved in shipping, from deckhands up to captains and shipowners.

Getting back to the current day issues on the line, I just cannot understand how increasingly any rolling stock issue (Bletchley to Bedford being currently another) means losing the whole service. In the days of "modernisation plan" diesels as took over on this line, any type worked anywhere, and did. As I understand it TfW has had a substantial delivery of new stock in the last year, so quite how they are now short is doubly bizarre. Whatever is it with chief mechanical engineers nowadays that they constantly specify trains incompatible with anything else, train crews only on the one type, and enter into contracts with the ROSCOs that do not ensure when problems arise they are not fixed pronto.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Getting back to the current day issues on the line, I just cannot understand how increasingly any rolling stock issue (Bletchley to Bedford being currently another) means losing the whole service. In the days of "modernisation plan" diesels as took over on this line, any type worked anywhere, and did. As I understand it TfW has had a substantial delivery of new stock in the last year, so quite how they are now short is doubly bizarre. Whatever is it with chief mechanical engineers nowadays that they constantly specify trains incompatible with anything else, train crews only on the one type, and enter into contracts with the ROSCOs that do not ensure when problems arise they are not fixed pronto.

I think it's called 'progress'. Can't stand in its way.

 

[Krokodil]

Getting back to the current day issues on the line, I just cannot understand how increasingly any rolling stock issue (Bletchley to Bedford being currently another) means losing the whole service. In the days of "modernisation plan" diesels as took over on this line, any type worked anywhere, and did. As I understand it TfW has had a substantial delivery of new stock in the last year, so quite how they are now short is doubly bizarre. Whatever is it with chief mechanical engineers nowadays that they constantly specify trains incompatible with anything else, train crews only on the one type, and enter into contracts with the ROSCOs that do not ensure when problems arise they are not fixed pronto.

Times have changed. Under BR a Blue Square DMMU was a Blue Square DMMU and you could transfer them to almost anywhere at a moment's notice. As a driver if you signed one class you signed the lot. You could also transfer coaching stock almost wherever you liked (Mk3s have some gauging restrictions) and haul them with whatever traction was available at the destination (even if that meant using a no-heat freight locomotive). Locomotive classes weren't signed by every part of the country but most places signed 47s and 37s so transferring those was fairly straightforward. Even once 15x came on the scene and needed a quick conversion course between classes, they could all work together and a Newton Heath 150 was no different to a Canton 150.

These days we have all sorts of microfleets, with all sorts of differences between them. GWR 802s won't talk to TPE 802s because the software is on a different version. A 196 can rescue a 197 but again there are differences between the units so the software won't talk, a 195 meanwhile won't even couple to the other two. Control layouts and handling differs too. Then consider what units you would use even if the above were resolved. There are not a lot of DMUs going spare.

What we need is some standardisation.

 

[norbitonflyer]

. Most passengers from the Borderlands line had transferred for Liverpool at Bidston ever since the Wirral lines were electrified and trains now ran through, in 1938.

Until the 1970s (possibly the opening of the Liverpool Loop?) the Wrexham trains ran to Birkenhead North (where there are three platforms so layover times could be longer). This also meant connections were better because Birkenhead North is served by trains from New Brighton as well as those from West Kirby.

Why were they cut back to Bidston?

 

[Taunton]

Until the 1970s (possibly the opening of the Liverpool Loop?) the Wrexham trains ran to Birkenhead North (where there are three platforms so layover times could be longer). This also meant connections were better because Birkenhead North is served by trains from New Brighton as well as those from West Kirby.

Why were they cut back to Bidston?

I remember the trains going to Birkenhead North. The issue was that they were just unable to make the return trip from Wrexham in an hour each way, leading to inefficiency of scheduling. Cutting back a few minutes each way just made it possible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2023 ==

What we need is some standardisation.

Which is just what one would think the multitude of industrywide bodies - Rail Delivery Group, Network Rail, RSSB, might have achieved; bodies with stratospheric staff budgets compared to the doubtless single late-1950s BR HQ officer who standardised "Blue Square" across the system.

 

[norbitonflyer]

........... the doubtless single late-1950s BR HQ officer who standardised "Blue Square" across the system.

Blue Squre was far from standard in the late 1950s. BR workshops alone produced units with six different coupling systems (seven if you count the SR DEMUs)

Red triangle - early Derby Lightweights 79xxx series, hydraulic transmission

Yellow Diamond - later Derby lightweights 79xxx series, mechanical transmission

White Circle - Class 126 (Swindon Inter City, Scottish Region) - no air connections between units

Orange Star - Class 125 (Derby suburban - Hydraulic transmission with air throttle control system

Blue Square - almost everything else produced by BR workshops and private contractors

Red Triangle - code revived for Derby suburban units with hydraulic transmission (Class 127). These units were originally intended to be compatible with blue square units, but there were a number of incidents when drivers forgot there was a unit with mechanical transmission in the formation and failed to operate the gear changer, resulting in engine damage through driving at speed in low gear.

The two red triangle systems would have been incompatible with each other, even if units of both types had existed at the same time.

Yellow diamond was also used for some early Metro Cammell units, and three Cravens parcel units (class 129)
Red triangle (2) was used for Cravens Class 113

 

[DLAYKEGER]

So even a local web paper is using the borderland line debacle as their April Fool. AND yes the trains showing today on RTT cancelled towards Bidston, but no cancellation the other direction, you could not make it up

Update: Eco-friendly pedal-powered trains set to transform Wrexham-Bidston line amid rolling stock shortage

www.deeside.com

 

[pokemonsuper9]

So even a local web paper is using the borderland line debacle as their April Fool. AND yes the trains showing today on RTT cancelled towards Bidston, but no cancellation the other direction, you could not make it up

Update: Eco-friendly pedal-powered trains set to transform Wrexham-Bidston line amid rolling stock shortage

www.deeside.com

We should have exercise bikes on the 230s to charge the batteries and let people exercise! (imagine if they actually did that)

 

[Krokodil]

Blue Squre was far from standard in the late 1950s. BR workshops alone produced units with six different coupling systems (seven if you count the SR DEMUs)

The units you list represent a tiny minority of the DMMU classes though.

 

[Meole]

As Bidston is in England it is surely right that TFW prioritises internal Welsh services.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

As Bidston is in England it is surely right that TFW prioritises internal Welsh services.

But over 50% of the line is in Wales. We don't need a them and us, situation. It is the Wales and Borders Franchise, not a Wales franchise. Maybe GWR should stop at the Severn Tunnel and only serve their English customer but that too would be stupid parochial idea, which I don't support. You need to look at cross border traffic flows and literally thousands head across the North Wales Cheshire border on a daily basis. We now have even more going by car with commuter the trains suspended.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The only place where borders come into it is in the free travel policy with concessionary travel passes.
Welsh residents with a "bus pass" can travel free between the Welsh stations (Wrexham to Hawarden Bridge).
Similarly Merseyside residents can travel free between the English stations (Bidston to Heswall).
But to the best of my knowledge neither can travel free across the border at Burton/Deeside.

For reasons I can't fathom, the concessionary travel scheme, which was originally supposed to be UK-wide, is national in character, though with some border flexibility.
Thus I can travel free to Chester using my Welsh pass, but not otherwise in England.
The free travel scheme also knocks any business case for six when significant numbers are not contributing any revenue into the system.

 

[L401CJF]

The only place where borders come into it is in the free travel policy with concessionary travel passes.
Welsh residents with a "bus pass" can travel free between the Welsh stations (Wrexham to Hawarden Bridge).
Similarly Merseyside residents can travel free between the English stations (Bidston to Heswall).
But to the best of my knowledge neither can travel free across the border at Burton/Deeside.

For reasons I can't fathom, the concessionary travel scheme, which was originally supposed to be UK-wide, is national in character, though with some border flexibility.
Thus I can travel free to Chester using my Welsh pass, but not otherwise in England.
The free travel scheme also knocks any business case for six when significant numbers are not contributing any revenue into the system.

There's quite a few bizzare revenue killing strategies on the Wales and Borders these days. The kids go free scheme (max 2 per paying adult, under 11 anytime and 11-16 off peak only) has been extended to cover any TfW service rather than just within Wales.

The Ukrainian refugee free travel scheme has been extended until June, albeit recently reduced from any TfW service to TfW managed stations only.

The free concessionary bus pass scheme between Hawarden Bridge and Wrexham is well used, whether the numbers are properly recorded however is another thing. Conductors are supposed to issue zero fare tickets for those using the concession pass or free child schemes, however in reality I don't think many bother. By the time they've printed free tickets for those folk, revenue has been lost by not having enough time to sell tickets to others who are only travelling a few stops.

 

[Krokodil]

The Ukrainian refugee free travel scheme has been extended until June

It's not even just limited to refugees, any Ukrainian national can use it even if they were resident in the UK long before the war. They just need to flash their passport. Like with the free pensioners and free kids the numbers are supposed to be reported back but unlike the zero fare tickets for the other WAG freebies it all has to be reported manually. I don't know a single guard who bothers.

If the Welsh Government weren't so obsessed with giving everything away for free, they might be able to afford more carriages, which is what passengers really want. Or they could just cut fares for all and boost ridership.

 

[43066]

It's not even just limited to refugees, any Ukrainian national can use it even if they were resident in the UK long before the war. They just need to flash their passport. Like with the free pensioners and free kids the numbers are supposed to be reported back but unlike the zero fare tickets for the other WAG freebies it all has to be reported manually. I don't know a single guard who bothers.

If the Welsh Government weren't so obsessed with giving everything away for free, they might be able to afford more carriages, which is what passengers really want. Or they could just cut fares for all and boost ridership.

That is more than a little ridiculous, to be fair!

 

[childwallblues]

After reading this thread, I just did some googling to find where Seacombe station was. It does seem from Google maps that this is one old line that has been completely obliterated. Interesting bit of history.

Incidentally, the Seacombe station wikipedia page states:



But looking on Google maps, I can't find any such road in Seacombe. Anyone know if this entry is correct? (There's a Church Crescent but it doesn't have a supermarket on it)

Look for Seacombe Ferry on the River Mersey.
The Mersey Tunnel approach road took part of the trackbed.

 

[Krokodil]

That is more than a little ridiculous, to be fair!

Croeso i Gymru

 

[DLAYKEGER]

There's quite a few bizzare revenue killing strategies on the Wales and Borders these days. The kids go free scheme (max 2 per paying adult, under 11 anytime and 11-16 off peak only) has been extended to cover any TfW service rather than just within Wales.

The Ukrainian refugee free travel scheme has been extended until June, albeit recently reduced from any TfW service to TfW managed stations only.

The free concessionary bus pass scheme between Hawarden Bridge and Wrexham is well used, whether the numbers are properly recorded however is another thing. Conductors are supposed to issue zero fare tickets for those using the concession pass or free child schemes, however in reality I don't think many bother. By the time they've printed free tickets for those folk, revenue has been lost by not having enough time to sell tickets to others who are only travelling a few stops.

The even more crazy system is to run buses instead of trains, don't sell tickets and still pay their drivers and conductors. TFW's losses must be crazy.

However, their next one is even more stupid. RTT shows they are planning to run a bus 1 miinute before a planned Class 230 is due to depart Wrexham Central. This will occur every 2hours tommorow (if a 230 actually runs). The later will take half the time to get to Bidston, and stupidly the first diagram means you can't get to either Wrexham or Liverpool before 9am if you commute to work. If I can see this, why can't TFW management?