Onboard bus announcements to be made mandatory

[Skytower]

The Plymouth Citybus app has been trialling a system where you can select your end stop and it will notify you as the bus approaches it. Obviously a much more discreet option, and it seems to work whenever I’ve tried it (although on one occasion, it did seem to cut it fine).

 

[JD2168]

The only buses currently running with next stop announcements in South Yorkshire are the Enviro 400s at First Sheffield (except 33725) & the YN62 plate E400H at Stagecoach Holbrook. These have speakers in the roof on both decks & screens on both decks as well. This works quite well when on the 120, when on other routes shows the First & Stagecoach logos.

 

[Fleetmaster]

As an able bodied person I find these most useful on rural routes where missing a stop can mean a good hike down a road with no footpath, and the speed of the bus can mean that you are way behind the curve if you're self tracking on bustimes.

I'm a pretty expert map reader and navigator, but even I struggle to catch that one crucial farmhouse on a bend which signals the stop is imminent.

Sometimes even just knowing a stop exists is helpful. I did the classic thing the other day of assuming a stop existed where there wasn't one. Ding ding. Bus proceeds to spend five minutes doing a rural loop, before emerging to the stop that I had not realized was on the outbound not inbound road. I knew the name of the village loop, so never would have pressed had it been the next announced stop.

I really don't like asking the driver, and obviously if I have the option and I'm on an unfamiliar route I'll head upstairs for beter navigation. The next generation don't do human interaction anyway, so buses need to cater for them too.

You soon tune out your regular bus. The Stagecoach lady is actually quite nicely musical and uplifting, even if she is a robot?!?!

I do hope someone is monitoring compliance, since in my area, I never knew there were so many stops called "depot test". Arriva.

 

[SSmith2009]

Centrebus have next stop announcements on their Yutong E10 buses used on the orbital service in Leicester which list the next stop and the following three stops which is handy and the voice isn't too loud unlike Arriva Midlands new E400MMC's that are deafeningly loud.

I feel that when announcements go mainstream then main stops (rail/hospital/shops etc) should be highlighted such as 'the next stop is: Railway Station stand RA alight here for the railway station' and stops inbetween just as 'Every Street'

 

[K4016td]

Bit late. I mean generally level of passenger information on the buses is quite low so that would be a welcomed addition, not only for the vulnerable but in general all passengers.

Actually even in pre-eletronic times in my hometown I recall use of the so-called ''corals'' with all of the stops listed, that were somewhere on the bus, either by the window or on the panels by the celling that enabled you to see all the stops - like the ones in the link below. Cheap to make, dead easy to maintain, yet so informative

http://mzdik.pl/upload/image/pozostale_fotografie/Galeria-pozostale-06.JPG

 

[W-on-Sea]

Excellent news, but yes, much of Central and Eastern Europe was doing this, often well, ages ago.

Some of my local rural or interurban routes have started doing this recently. My main criticism is that they often don't give the names of each village they serve, so we get stops announced for just generic terms like "post office" without the far more useful information about which settlement the post office is in getting a mention. Careful consideration to the naming of stops and/or how they are described is vital.

 

[jon0844]

The fun ones are the ones at announce the bus stop before the one you are approaching. Unless the system is reliable then its worse than nothing.
And pronunciation. There is a Coutances Way in Ilkley. Its pronounced coo-tonce as its French. - Ilkley is twinned with Coutances. But First buses announce it Cow-tan-sez. Attention to detail....

Sat Nav companies solved this years ago by having the written name and a version for the text-to-speech. Sadly not all systems use this data (as mapping data becomes bigger, hence cheaper navigation systems having lower resolution map data) and it can be very bad!

This is what the screens look like on my buses (not all buses yet fitted, but they are adding them as time goes on). Only recall hearing announcements once so far, so don't remember what the pronunciation was like.


(Image showing an Uno bus in Hertfordshire with a colour LCD display showing next stop and then the following stop)

When a bus was diverted due to a road closure, it incorrectly showed a stop (constantly) that wasn't visited and then jumped to the next (right) stop when back on the right road. I don't know if the driver could manually delete those stops to prevent them showing.

 

[Fleetmaster]

A standard stop naming convention is badly needed.

A bus route I was on the other day had five stops all called "Main Street" on the flag. Bizarre.

At the very least, if there's not an obvious landmark, these need to become "Main Street - Acacia Avenue"; "Main Street - Hartside Post Office"; "Main Street - Parsons Green" etc.

 

[Adtrainsam]

If done properly, I find it's quite easy to 'zone-out' from the announcements, but still clear enough so that it's audible and understandable if you're keeping an ear on it. Go North East does it especially well. Emma's voice blends in, but still stands out nonetheless. Many routes have NSAs and the displays are clear and useful.

There have been many a time where I start thinking the NSAs aren't working (it does happen) after zoning out, but a few seconds later it's quite prominent if you consciously look out for them!

 

[dm1]

Do the buses' PIS match the names on Bustimes and Google Maps. ?

None of the buses have a PIS at all. Google maps is hit and miss. It generally has the right locations, but the names are a lottery and a mess. One route I just checked has two stops named imaginatively "crossroads" within 5 stops of each other.

 

[Man of Kent]

None of the buses have a PIS at all. Google maps is hit and miss. It generally has the right locations, but the names are a lottery and a mess. One route I just checked has two stops named imaginatively "crossroads" within 5 stops of each other.

The names on both BusTimes and Google (and Traveline) should ultimately both derive from the NaPTAN database (that's National Public Transport Access Nodes).

It is maintained by Local Transport Authorities, there are rules about naming conventions, and some apply it more strictly than others. Data available from the gov.uk website https://beta-naptan.dft.gov.uk/

There is no requirement for operators to use the same names, although some Bus Service Improvement Plans suggest that they should. However, NaPTAN names generally exist in both long and short form, so there is still the possibility of inconsistencies even if using the database.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well-managed TTS is fine. If somewhere is mispronounced, you can have a table in the system of "word" -> "spelling that pronounces it correctly". This can be refined as oddities are reported.

 

[jon0844]

Well-managed TTS is fine. If somewhere is mispronounced, you can have a table in the system of "word" -> "spelling that pronounces it correctly". This can be refined as oddities are reported.

Exactly. I had a speech synthesiser on a Commodore 64 decades ago and even that allowed you to spell things phonetically using codes/symbols. I am not sure if you can programme Alexa this way (for routines where you make it announce something) but bet you can.

I think Amazon or Google checks how to pronounce your name when you set it up first time?

No excuse for an incorrectly pronounced word with TTS.

 

[GusB]

Rather than having a general discussion about onboard announcements, which this thread isn't, could we hear some views on how you think this will affect operators, particularly smaller ones that might not have the expertise or resources to implement it properly?

 

[markymark2000]

I seem to be in a minority here, but for any journey I’m a regular on I actually try and deliberately get one without announcements. It’s useful on unfamiliar routes, and I do fully appreciate that this is to improve accessibility, but if you are on a regular route it can make a journey feel very long when you can’t really tune it out.

I won't avoid a joinery but I certainly enjoy it less as I (and many other autistic people) find too many noises difficult to handle. I've had the discussion before and it's very much helping people with one set of disabilities while making it harder for those with other difficulties.

Next stop screens though, I think we are unanimously agreed that would be a good thing. The announcements is where things become less agreed.

Given the prevalence of people having wireless earphones or even smartphones these days is there not some way this could use these technologies for those that need it?

I do wonder if the Rise Digital Media apps are any good as they apparently have this feature. Juat to help those who are unsure, I've put in a spoiler below for which companies use RDM apps.

Spoiler: Companies using apps from RiseDigitalMedia

Adventure Travel, Centrebus, Diamond, Falcon, Go Coach, Grant Palmer, Lynx, Preston Bus, Uno, Vision & White Bus

I’d also comment that this feels far more applicable to cities, it in towns and rural areas, I think most people just ask the driver to let them know when to get off and most drivers are more than happy to help. This seems like using technology to replace valuable human interaction which many of those who require assistance most crave.

Also for rural routes, especially those running only a few days per week, a lot of them have regular passengers and drivers. Drivers will deviate off route to serve closer to elderly passengers houses. I'd love to see that working on the screens. 'the next stop is Jeans House', 'the next stop is Margaret's Bungalow'.

On some rural routes, this would work great but that's only where the route is used by infrequent passengers. Any service which would be classed as a shopper bus for elderly simply shouldn't come under the scope of these regulations. If S19/22 can get away with it, why should a bus on the exact same route be subject to the same conditions.

They're not so bad if they are just telling you what you need to know, as you describe. It's very irritating when they ramble on welcoming everyone on board every few stops, introducing them to the route, advising people to download an app, track their bus, buy tickets online... SHUT UP!!!

Also annoying if they refer to the bus stop as something it hasn't been known as for years, or pronounce it wrong...

This feels very aimed at Transdev. Haha. It's a great example of what can happen if control over announcements are in the wrong hands. Same for tfl (see next point)

The key is to keep the waffle down - repeated stuff is particularly annoying. London dealt with this early on, e.g. it was originally "Route X to Y" and is now just "X to Y" because the repeated "route" was annoying and unnecessary. Similarly "the next stop is" is spurious, and junk like the 3 Ss should be avoided like the plague.

You highlight London as a good example. Was it not TFL who introduced the 'please hold on, the bus is about to move' announcement and it only got removed due to public outcry!?

Absolutely. I feel comfortable and in control on a train, and similar on a tram. Buses have always been a gamble for many, and we're still lagging behind on providing real time information and tracking so you can be sure your bus exists.

Tracking is now available for around 70% of buses in England. Wales is due to bring in open data rules shortly (but we don't know if that included AVL). Scotland isn't awful but that is thanks to operators being proactive. 2 of the big 3 PLC companies have live tracking as well as a number of I dependants.

Then there's almost no way to know the fare for the many operators that don't publish rates and simply hope to sell a day pass. They're really not user friendly for many, and that's where a London bus has always been the gold standard because TfL has made them as accessible as the other modes of transport.

Fare data is part of bus open data regulations and in some cases fare data is displayed on bustimes.org alongside a route (see like Lynx bus https://staging.bustimes.org/services/33-kings-lynn-hunstanton). This depends on how good the data is though. If the data is high quality, it gets used, if not, it isn't used as it's not good for users.

If it's a legal obligation they will fix it or the bus won't run. In theory. From what I can see, it will be a legal obligation

If it's not a legal obligation it will be at the bottom of the list for servicing, along with heating, water leakage, bangs and rattles, dash warning lights.

'sorry folks but your once per week service won't be returning you home as the announcement system broke. Enjoy your taxi ride home'. Sure that will go down a right treat.






One thing that this will do that clearly hasn't been thought about is that it will increase tender costs and as such council budgets won't go as far so the bus network will be reduced. Any school services which are currently open to the public would also start to become closed so that they dont have to comply with the regulations but also it would contribute towards reducing the bus network. As if commercial bus mileage wasn't dropping already, you're going to see an almighty drop in the next few years with the increased costs.

As I've said before, screens I 100% fully agree with. Couldn't agree more if I tried. It's such a shame to see so many screens installed doing absolutely sod all. Chester Park and Ride buses are bad for it. Pre COVID they had 1 bus in beachball and now post COVID they have reduced the PVR on the P&R so more buses in the new corporate livery. All of these buses have next stop screens but none of them work unless they are on the P&R route. Why not set it up for other routes that the buses commonly do? Arriva Leicester's new buses, all have screens but they just do general promotion. Many Stagecoach buses have TV screens showing CCTV, this could instead be used to show next stops.


Suppose we could look at the beneficiaries, S22 permit operators (community transport operators) will do great out of this. Just like current bus tenders in Yorkshire (yes, aimed at South Pennine CT and North Yorkshire Council), S22 operators will undercut normal commercial businesses and win shed loads of work. I'm not quite sure how that fairs for the conservatives pro big business policies but this is the reality of what will happen as we are already seeing it happen in areas where they allow S22 operators bid for tenders.

Rather than having a general discussion about onboard announcements, which this thread isn't, could we hear some views on how you think this will affect operators, particularly smaller ones that might not have the expertise or resources to implement it properly?

I don't see why they should worry. The govt has a pot of £5m to give to them. That will be more than enough to help all of our small operators!

Spoiler: The reality

£3.5m will go to Hanover for consultancy and supporting small operators, the rest will trickle down to small operators so anyone with 2 buses or less will get 1 screen.

 

[Goldfish62]

You highlight London as a good example. Was it not TFL who introduced the 'please hold on, the bus is about to move' announcement and it only got removed due to public outcry!?

It was a very stupid idea of one senior person and it got removed after a few weeks. That strengthens my argument that London is a good example. Keep it simple. Next stop, route, destination.

 

[jon0844]

Not sure why some buses with mostly regular passengers should be exempt, given there might be one elderly shopper that has a disability.

Also, if a bus system falls then yes it shouldn't be allowed to run. I am sure there would be something along the lines of allowing it to continue to run for a short period (so as not to leave people stranded) but then it must be fixed.

There's not exactly much to go wrong though. If really isn't likely to be one of the things that fails and actually stops the bus from being able to move.

As for tracking, I use bustimes.org a lot but it isn't perfect (nor something a lot of people like the look of, going by my failed attempts to convince people to use it).

Tracking doesn't always update and some buses don't track when they are running (which means you may not wait for a bus because you think it isn't running. It also can't detect a bus running empty to start a new service (part way through the day, Uno will run empties to get a service back to time by not relying on a late inbound that lost time through multiple runs) so you don't know the bus exists until it starts in service. If you're not far from that, again, it looks like it doesn't exist.

All issues that can be addressed, and regarding cost, it surely can't be that expensive. Much of the tech is on the buses running now anyway.

Going forward, buses will need to surely show information when doing contract work (like rail replacement buses). Not enough to just say rail replacement on the front and the driver possibly shouting out names as s/he goes.

 

[busken]

Reading's system seems to work well. As you get on it announces the route and direction i.e. "17 to Tilehurst" then as it pulls away "next stop ...." and when it stops, "this stop is...." plus a visual display showing the same. What is interesting is they obviously did the recordings in batches because on some routes, halfway along the announcer changes from one person to another.

 

[Rodent48]

While I don't disagree that requirements for announcements would no doubt improve accessibility, I do question the feasability in rural areas.

First Kernow had them on their new MMCs and even ran a competition to be the 'voice of the buses'

(YouTube advertisement), these announcements have since gone along with the information displays not used. And a large majority of the Go Ahead MMCs that now dominate the bus network to my observations don't even have any passenger announcement speakers fitted.

Although there would be funding to add this of course, it reflects the wider problem of the management of bus stops in Cornwall if not other rural areas. If they were used for every single stop, I'd certainly learn about some random bus stops that don't have any visible recognition as one exept a seasonal mow of the grass and a digital counterpart.

 

[cactustwirly]

Reading's system seems to work well. As you get on it announces the route and direction i.e. "17 to Tilehurst" then as it pulls away "next stop ...." and when it stops, "this stop is...." plus a visual display showing the same. What is interesting is they obviously did the recordings in batches because on some routes, halfway along the announcer changes from one person to another.

Interesting, I've only ever heard one male voice.
The Reading system is decent enough

 

[jon0844]

Interesting, I've only ever heard one male voice.
The Reading system is decent enough

I really think TTS (with phonetic data) is the best way to do things. Then the database of bus stops can be shared nationally, and easily updated with changes as and when required. No need to record new voices, which for a smaller operator is likely to be a big undertaking (recording, editing, downloading etc).

 

[Goldfish62]

I really think TTS (with phonetic data) is the best way to do things. Then the database of bus stops can be shared nationally, and easily updated with changes as and when required. No need to record new voices, which for a smaller operator is likely to be a big undertaking (recording, editing, downloading etc).

Yes, absolutely.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I really think TTS (with phonetic data) is the best way to do things. Then the database of bus stops can be shared nationally, and easily updated with changes as and when required. No need to record new voices, which for a smaller operator is likely to be a big undertaking (recording, editing, downloading etc).

I was working on making an Android app which would do this (because I have too much free time) but Android was being difficult with some of my code and the project stalled.

 

[Trainlog]

I agree with the majority that its not the worst thing in the world that they are being introduced. On the 101 in Maidstone/Medway its just a generic straight to the point "the next stop is" and tells you "this is the end of the Medway ticket zone". The announcement is also at a good volume aswell and it pretty much just becomes white noise throughout the whole journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with the majority that its not the worst thing in the world that they are being introduced. On the 101 in Maidstone/Medway its just a generic straight to the point "the next stop is" and tells you "this is the end of the Medway ticket zone". The announcement is also at a good volume aswell and it pretty much just becomes white noise throughout the whole journey.

"The next stop is" is spurious (and annoying by being repetitive). Literally just say the name of the stop.

The concept has been in operation in London for years now - there is no reason not to do it the same way, they have had plenty of time to perfect it.

 

[computerSaysNo]

"The next stop is" is spurious (and annoying by being repetitive). Literally just say the name of the stop.

The concept has been in operation in London for years now - there is no reason not to do it the same way, they have had plenty of time to perfect it.

I think on rural routes it could be useful, for example if two stops are several minutes apart then you'd be traveling along just for the bus to (seemingly randomly) shout a stop name at you. At least with "Next Stop:" you get a little warning. I agree that in areas with lots of stops close together though it's unneeded.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think on rural routes it could be useful, for example if two stops are several minutes apart then you'd be traveling along just for the bus to (seemingly randomly) shout a stop name at you. At least with "Next Stop:" you get a little warning. I agree that in areas with lots of stops close together though it's unneeded.

If you want a "your attention please" that's less annoying, a soft "bong" is common in German speaking countries.

 

[WM Bus]

In the West Midlands we already have these on certain National Express routes on newer vehicles. And they are connected to the destination display I think. On services that don't have announcements they show a generic National Express West Midlands display. I guess we might see some older pre 2016 vehicles retrofitted as well eventually now?

I've never encountered working announcements on any other WM operators though. On the Arriva Tamworth vehicles, they actually had them when new, but they stopped working years ago.

 

[markymark2000]

Not sure why some buses with mostly regular passengers should be exempt, given there might be one elderly shopper that has a disability.

I trust you've not been on the right kind of routes then. Many of the routes that I am talking about are the exact same passengers each week and and new passengers are often accompanied by old pax.

Also, if a bus system falls then yes it shouldn't be allowed to run. I am sure there would be something along the lines of allowing it to continue to run for a short period (so as not to leave people stranded) but then it must be fixed.

There's not exactly much to go wrong though. If really isn't likely to be one of the things that fails and actually stops the bus from being able to move.

This would be a breach of disability laws though so wouldn't be accepted. Therefore you are entrusting our fantastic, self absorbed, definitely non deluded, civil servants to put in proper exemptions so that these services can still run? Then again, these services won't exist much longer with this sort of scheme.

As for tracking, I use bustimes.org a lot but it isn't perfect (nor something a lot of people like the look of, going by my failed attempts to convince people to use it).

Tracking doesn't always update and some buses don't track when they are running (which means you may not wait for a bus because you think it isn't running. It also can't detect a bus running empty to start a new service (part way through the day, Uno will run empties to get a service back to time by not relying on a late inbound that lost time through multiple runs) so you don't know the bus exists until it starts in service. If you're not far from that, again, it looks like it doesn't exist.

So you want not in service buses to track to show when buses so you can work out if a bus is running dead. Wow. Why don't you just demand every single bus in the country tracks 24/7 even when in the depot. Another topic I guess but how daft.

Poor tracking is operators own issue and that is a legal requirement for buses to track properly.

All issues that can be addressed, and regarding cost, it surely can't be that expensive. Much of the tech is on the buses running now anyway.

Kind of on the buses, it depends how it gets all the data. If it requires Ticketer for anything, you can bet they will have a huge price premium on it as they do for all of their add-ons.

Going forward, buses will need to surely show information when doing contract work (like rail replacement buses). Not enough to just say rail replacement on the front and the driver possibly shouting out names as s/he goes.

You're lucky if most buses say rail replacement. Firms can't even manage that most of the time. Only a select few companies make any effort for contract work. If a driver does announcements to, you're lucky. There has been no indication that train companies want this. Especially when they are currently on a spree of vastly cutting costs on rail replacement and new contracts paying operators 50% less than older contracts! Pay less but provide more, no chance.

 

[geoffk]

All said with an annoyingly happy voice.

The other thing is the voice needs to be completely neutral in tone, like Emma Hignett. Anything cheerful sounding is just going to p*** people off if they've had a bad journey.

A female voice, with its higher pitch, is also preferable (if we're allowed to say that now). Other than "next stop" and other information like a ticket boundary, announcements should be short and to the point. A while ago First buses in West Yorkshire had an announcement "please remain seated until the bus stops", presumably activated by pressing the bell. It soon disappeared, no doubt because passengers and drivers alike found it annoying. We don't want buses to follow the railway example of endless safety and security announcements!