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Should LNWR and Avanti merge into a single TOC?

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PTR 444

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The WCML out of London is the exception to most railways in that two major TOCs serve it as opposed to one. LNWR is for the local trains serving the Home Counties while Avanti is for Intercity services to the Midlands, North West and Scotland.

Considering that we are moving towards a more unified railway network, we should really be merging TOCs into fewer but larger operating units to save on costs, unify branding and simplify staff rotas. The main argument for not doing this is that this will remove competition and drive up fares on the slow trains along the south WCML, but this misses the point that long-distance passengers should not be taking up valuable capacity on the slow trains just because they’re cheaper. If there is demand for cheap travel, an open access operator should be able to fill the gap which will be much easier once HS2 to Birmingham is complete.
 
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The WCML out of London is the exception to most railways in that two major TOCs serve it as opposed to one. LNWR is for the local trains serving the Home Counties while Avanti is for Intercity services to the Midlands, North West and Scotland.
The ECML is the same (LNER and GTR) as is the MML (EMR and GTR), so not exactly an exception.
 

yorksrob

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Not without a considerably more public service based (i.e. cheaper) system of fares.

Even under BR the two service types were marketed separately under different business sectors (although they didn't compete with eachother as they do now).
 

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I don’t think that branding costs that much in the grand scheme of things. And we’ve just had a thread (about the Intersex-accessible EMU) where people have been very keen to point out just how cheap a bit of vinyl is. I don’t think that branding adds much to ticket prices.

Simplified staffing rotas? I think that the combined franchise would be so big that staff would stick to what they currently do, there are enough roles to not need everyone to be trained on everything (e.g. the much smaller TPE haven’t trained any staff on both 802s and loco hauled rakes). Plus you inevitably have to harmonise salaries towards if you wanted staff to work both long distance 390 services and Tring stoppers

this misses the point that long-distance passengers should not be taking up valuable capacity on the slow trains just because they’re cheaper. If there is demand for cheap travel, an open access operator should be able to fill the gap

This feels like a weak link in the argument.

We should merge everything together to avoid wasteful competition so that there’s room for Open Access creaming off the most lucrative flows instead?
 

PTR 444

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This feels like a weak link in the argument.

We should merge everything together to avoid wasteful competition so that there’s room for Open Access creaming off the most lucrative flows instead?
Isn’t this what Lumo currently does for the ECML?
 

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yes. reform the 350s and take a center car from the stored 360s, make it a mini-buffet give all slow services up to watford junction to the over-ground, and make the former LNR units semi-fast units.
 
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The Planner

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Isn’t this what Lumo currently does for the ECML?
Would hardly say they have the lucrative paths.

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yes. reform the 350s and take a center car from the stored 360s, make it a mini-buffet give all services up to northants to the over-ground, and make the former LNR units semi-fast units.
And you have just completed the circle by complicating the whole thing by adding another TOC back. Overground to Northampton is lunacy.
 

The Planner

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tbtc

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Isn’t this what Lumo currently does for the ECML?

But you want to tidy up the WCML (just one TOC) and restrict competition …

… so that there’s space for a brand new operator who’ll heavily compete with existing flows?

Do you see a contradiction?
 

PTR 444

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This would just result in the cheaper LNR only fares getting abolished
Which should happen as part of a much larger fares reform

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But you want to tidy up the WCML (just one TOC) and restrict competition …

… so that there’s space for a brand new operator who’ll heavily compete with existing flows?

Do you see a contradiction?
They don't have to compete with existing flows. Like how open access on the ECML improved direct services from London to Hull, Bradford and Sunderland, WCML open access could do the same for Blackpool, Windermere, Blackburn etc.
 

gordonthemoron

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Avanti are dreadful and i much prefer LNWR these days. I’d hate LNWR to be reduced to the same level as Avanti

Also, doesn’t St Pancras and Kings Cross also have two (or more) major TOCs?
 

RailWonderer

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Which should happen as part of a much larger fares reform

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They don't have to compete with existing flows. Like how open access on the ECML improved direct services from London to Hull, Bradford and Sunderland, WCML open access could do the same for Blackpool, Windermere, Blackburn etc.
I'd like to see one operator like GWR for the WCML where you have one flat fare that is more expensive than LNR and cheaper than some of Avanti's overpriced fares where the losses would be offset by the gains from the LNR fares. Having GBR taking over all fare pricing and leaving no unregulated fares to the TOC would fix this if they did it.
 

Matt P

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I'd personally like to see the core routes of BR's Intercity Sector operated on an entirely commercial basis and not subject to any concession, management contract or franchising.

They could be merged into a single state owned limited company, as per DB Fernverkehr in Germany or SJ AB in Sweden. There are a couple of alternatives though. They could also be operated by separate but still state owned limited companies or grouped into two or three state owned limited companies. Some of the shareholding for each could be transferred to the Scottish or Welsh Governments. Open access would be permitted under any of these scenarios.

Another alternative would be to simply fully privatise long distance operators and turn it into an entirely open access market.

None of the above would necessarily prevent fare reform/simplification. There could still be a standard ticket fare for long distance services, with operators able to charge a supplement that they could set themselves thus still providing some cost differentiation/competition between operators.
 

yorksrob

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I'd personally like to see the core routes of BR's Intercity Sector operated on an entirely commercial basis and not subject to any concession, management contract or franchising.

They could be merged into a single state owned limited company, as per DB Fernverkehr in Germany or SJ AB in Sweden. There are a couple of alternatives though. They could also be operated by separate but still state owned limited companies or grouped into two or three state owned limited companies. Some of the shareholding for each could be transferred to the Scottish or Welsh Governments. Open access would be permitted under any of these scenarios.

Another alternative would be to simply fully privatise long distance operators and turn it into an entirely open access market.

None of the above would necessarily prevent fare reform/simplification. There could still be a standard ticket fare for long distance services, with operators able to charge a supplement that they could set themselves thus still providing some cost differentiation/competition between operators.

Fare reform/simplification is of no value to the travelling public unless they decrease.
 

PTR 444

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Another alternative would be to simply fully privatise long distance operators and turn it into an entirely open access market.
Really? All that will do is guarantee the withdrawal of the local services since they won’t make a profit.
 

Bletchleyite

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In short, probably not.

The example of GWR has been used - and GWR does work well - but there is a key difference - who are you also going to merge with the other end of Avanti to create that single operator? Northern? TPE? TfW? ScotRail? WMR? Basically, the only way you're going to do it is recreating British Rail.

Thus it isn't likely going to happen to create what GWR, EMR or Greater Anglia do for the WCML or indeed ECML - it's just too complex.

One could argue that the LNR Crewe service should be Avanti operated instead, I suppose, though the differential fares do provide market differentiation more than competition, appealing to different people. There is after all an LNER service comparable to them - the York semifast. However, the rest of LNR fits closely with WMR - I am genuinely unsure anything would be gained by having Avanti operate Tring stoppers, for instance.
 

Matt P

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Really? All that will do is guarantee the withdrawal of the local services since they won’t make a profit.
The key part of my post was it referred to routes/services that were historically operated by Intercity i.e longer distance, higher speed, limited stop services. If some of these services arent commercially viable, should they run at all? If they didn't run, could the capacity released be better used for a service that is commercially viable or of more use in some other way.

If anything what I am suggesting is that there should be two entirely different models for passenger services. One for long distance/higher speed services and another for local/regional services.

The latter should be subject to some form of contracting in my opinion. The powers to specify the services and the funding to procure them should be entirely handed over to existing Integrated Transport Authorities, where they exist and/or new ones created specifically for the purpose answerable to the local authorities they cover. The ITAs could buy services from a state owned operator, set up their own operator or sign an operating contract with a private operator. Whichever would be a local decision.

This isnt all that revolutionary or radical. As with the commercial model for longer distance services, this is happening across Europe at this very moment and has been for decades in some cases - Germany since the mid-1990's. It would effectively roll out what already happens in parts of the UK to all of England.
 

RobShipway

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The key part of my post was it referred to routes/services that were historically operated by Intercity i.e longer distance, higher speed, limited stop services. If some of these services arent commercially viable, should they run at all? If they didn't run, could the capacity released be better used for a service that is commercially viable or of more use in some other way.

If anything what I am suggesting is that there should be two entirely different models for passenger services. One for long distance/higher speed services and another for local/regional services.

The latter should be subject to some form of contracting in my opinion. The powers to specify the services and the funding to procure them should be entirely handed over to existing Integrated Transport Authorities, where they exist and/or new ones created specifically for the purpose answerable to the local authorities they cover. The ITAs could buy services from a state owned operator, set up their own operator or sign an operating contract with a private operator. Whichever would be a local decision.

This isnt all that revolutionary or radical. As with the commercial model for longer distance services, this is happening across Europe at this very moment and has been for decades in some cases - Germany since the mid-1990's. It would effectively roll out what already happens in parts of the UK to all of England.
The problem you have is that there would be more than one ITA along the WCML. I working on the basis that the ITA would not be any different than say what was West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive, who basically in the 1980's and 1990's prior to privatisation. Pretty much all of the old WMPTE services are run by West Midlands Trains, who is the owner of LNR.

Also, many of the 'Suburban services' where originally run by Network South East, again prior to privatisation.

Now, after privatisation some services from the Midlands that terminated at Birmingham International go extended to Northampton, where passengers had to change to then be travelling on to London which if you split the services out to ITA's is what travelling on the faster 'Suburban services' would end up being. Now, that would be fine for able bodied people, but what about people that are disabled especially those that are having to use wheelchairs to get around?

In short, probably not.

The example of GWR has been used - and GWR does work well - but there is a key difference - who are you also going to merge with the other end of Avanti to create that single operator? Northern? TPE? TfW? ScotRail? WMR? Basically, the only way you're going to do it is recreating British Rail.

Thus it isn't likely going to happen to create what GWR, EMR or Greater Anglia do for the WCML or indeed ECML - it's just too complex.

One could argue that the LNR Crewe service should be Avanti operated instead, I suppose, though the differential fares do provide market differentiation more than competition, appealing to different people. There is after all an LNER service comparable to them - the York semifast. However, the rest of LNR fits closely with WMR - I am genuinely unsure anything would be gained by having Avanti operate Tring stoppers, for instance.
I have to agree with Bletchleyite comment 100%. Whilst GWR works well, you have to look at who would you merge with Avanti at the North end of the WCML. Scotrail, I think is unlikely as it serves the trains for Scotland with a toes dipped to provide services to England. I also think that TFW would not be an operator to merge with on a similar basis to Scotrail, accept that TFW provide the trains for Wales with dips into England to provide those services.

That leaves TPE and Northern. I think that LNR/West Midland Trains should merge with Northern and TPE should be merged with Avanti. The trouble with that is, if the paths are available do you for example extend the Avanti services that terminate at Birmingham New Street to go further north to Crewe and replace the LNR services or have the LNR London Euston - Crewe service, run to Liverpool to replace the LNR Birmingham to Liverpool service, as well as the Northern trains Crewe to Liverpool service. The problem with doing either though is that many places that have a 1 train an hour Monday - Saturday, will probably go to 1 train every two hours, so you end up giving a worse service to many towns and cities.
 

PTR 444

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In short, probably not.

The example of GWR has been used - and GWR does work well - but there is a key difference - who are you also going to merge with the other end of Avanti to create that single operator? Northern? TPE? TfW? ScotRail? WMR?
Why would you need to do that? Avanti and LNER on their own should be able to comfortably form a single TOC without another operator from the north being bolted on.
 
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There's little reason why it couldn't be, and if you included the western half of Northern you'd be almost recreating the LMS without the internal Scottish stuff. So it's not like it hasn't operated like that before albeit in the (distant) past.
 

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Why would you need to do that? Avanti and LNER on their own should be able to comfortably form a single TOC without another operator from the north being bolted on.

You certainly could do that, but what actual benefit would it gain? GWR is somewhat different, but merging Thames Trains with FGW didn't change that much at the London end other than allowing more flexibility on the Oxford route, which the WCML doesn't have anything that really compares with. The real benefit was bringing in Wessex so IC and regional routes could be coordinated, but Northern is much more complex than that and doesn't only, or even in the majority, exist to connect to London services.
 

PTR 444

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You certainly could do that, but what actual benefit would it gain? GWR is somewhat different, but merging Thames Trains with FGW didn't change that much at the London end other than allowing more flexibility on the Oxford route, which the WCML doesn't have anything that really compares with. The real benefit was bringing in Wessex so IC and regional routes could be coordinated, but Northern is much more complex than that and doesn't only, or even in the majority, exist to connect to London services.
There are several options I suppose. Another way of doing it could be to split Northern and TPE into North-West and North-East sectors, with the former going to LNWR/Avanti and the latter going to LNER. Just like the Big Four days.
 

Matt P

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The problem you have is that there would be more than one ITA along the WCML. I working on the basis that the ITA would not be any different than say what was West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive, who basically in the 1980's and 1990's prior to privatisation. Pretty much all of the old WMPTE services are run by West Midlands Trains, who is the owner of LNR.

Also, many of the 'Suburban services' where originally run by Network South East, again prior to privatisation.

Now, after privatisation some services from the Midlands that terminated at Birmingham International go extended to Northampton, where passengers had to change to then be travelling on to London which if you split the services out to ITA's is what travelling on the faster 'Suburban services' would end up being. Now, that would be fine for able bodied people, but what about people that are disabled especially those that are having to use wheelchairs to get around?
I don't see how this issue is one that isn't being addressed in dozens of EU countries at the moment. We also already have this situation in the UK already. Merseyrail services terminate outside of the area covered by Merseyside's ITA, as do some of TfL's services. TfW procures services that penetrate quite far into England into areas covered by a number of English ITAs. As you point out, the situation also existed in BR days where Regional Railways bordered NSE, given that both operated services of a regional or local nature. It also occurred within sectors, with their division into profit centres that ultimately became the initial franchises that in turn are the nucleus of many of today's franchises

I am suggesting we move beyond ITAs solely for the former Metropolitan areas so the authority for operating or procuring regional rail services would be cover a larger geographical area that the PTE areas. Ideally we'd have a system of regional government that would assume this role but that is definitely more in the realms of fantasy.

There are a number of ways in which cross ITA boundary services could be managed. They could be jointly procured. Alternatively the ITA with the most route miles could be the procuring or lead authority. Consultation and shared funding arangements could also be put in place.

One other option is something approximating to the BR Regional Railway and NSE sectors could be reestablished to act as a coordinating authority. This may hold some other advantages by acting as a body for rolling stock procurement. If I recall correctly this isn't a million miles away from what happened in Poland. Polregio was originally owned by PKP but had its shareholding transferred to the 16 regional authorities of Poland.

Ulimately all of these issues would need to be sorted out via statutory instruments. Of course there would be teething issues but I don't see that as a reason for not giving it a go.
 

Meerkat

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Which should happen as part of a much larger fares reform
Why? Don't the cheap LNWR fares fill their trains and free up capacity on the Avanti services for longer distance passengers?
I assume its BR nostalgia but I really don't see the fascination for combining brands. Brands exist for a reason - they aim for different markets. Just look at VW!
 

Matt P

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Why? Don't the cheap LNWR fares fill their trains and free up capacity on the Avanti services for longer distance passengers?
I assume its BR nostalgia but I really don't see the fascination for combining brands. Brands exist for a reason - they aim for different markets. Just look at VW!
I agree. I am all in favour of services having distinct brands.

I know I have referred to Europe a lot, Germany (where I have used rail services more than anywhere outside the UK) in particular but this is precisely what happens there. Without looking at the past with overly rose tinted glasses, this was one of the driving thoughts behind sectorisation.

Avanti, LNER, Cross Country and the longer distance EMR and GWR services would be branded IC in Germany. Everything else would be RB or RE. Prices can differ significantly between each but fares are typically easy to understand. Tickets for RB and RE often fall within a regional transport authority's tariff regime, but essentially speed attracts a premium so IC and ICE are more expensive. Travellers have a clear choice. Get there fast = pay more, get there reasonably quickly but stop more often, pay slightly less, get there with lots of stops and maybe a change or two, pay the lowest fair of the 3 options.

I appreciate that it is not necessarily possible to simply import the operating model of another country and expect it to work as well here. But we do seem particularly bad at even considering how it may be possible to adapt practice from elsewhere to UK circumstances. Unfortunately our two main political parties are the main obstacles. One is instinctively more inclined to a largely private sector option the other to a largely state owned monopolistic model. We could and should be able to find a workable compromise somewhere in between.
 

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Fundamentally, the LNWR model seems to provide value for money for passengers. In the absence of meaningful fares regulation, this should be retained
 

LYuen

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100% no. Most major inter city services have alternatives, e.g. Birmingham to London there are Avanti, LNWR and Chiltern, North East to London there are LNER and a few open access operators, Scotland - London there are LNER, Avanti and Lumo, etc. These provides backup service when one ToC is hit by operator specific problem/dispute.

North West cities like Manchester and Liverpool had suffered when Avanti could only run the emergency timetable, which was mostly a result from the lack of alternatives. Transpennnie is also terrible at the moment but Northern can somehow be the alternative.

LNWR as it stands provide some degree of backup services, but the connections are quite poor. I think LNWR should be allowed to operate further north instead.
 

Bletchleyite

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100% no. Most major inter city services have alternatives, e.g. Birmingham to London there are Avanti, LNWR and Chiltern, North East to London there are LNER and a few open access operators, Scotland - London there are LNER, Avanti and Lumo, etc. These provides backup service when one ToC is hit by operator specific problem/dispute.

North West cities like Manchester and Liverpool had suffered when Avanti could only run the emergency timetable, which was mostly a result from the lack of alternatives. Transpennnie is also terrible at the moment but Northern can somehow be the alternative.

LNWR as it stands provide some degree of backup services, but the connections are quite poor. I think LNWR should be allowed to operate further north instead.

I don't think extending LNR north is sensible apart from that the Crewe semifast should extend to Liverpool in order to remove the need for a second Avanti.

The fix is to fix the other TOCs, not rely on duplication/triplication.
 
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