RailAdventure Power Cars being sent out in groups of four. Is this a waste of resources?

[ExRes]

Better things to do? Like arguing for BA to use 747s between Heathrow and Stanstead?!

Really, mate? You think that it’s an effective use of 125mph passenger locos to haul a unit around Britain? There are 57s available, in my most recent loco guide about 1/4 of the fleet is stored, and the 86s seem in good condition judging from the many clips and photos of them at Basford Hall. There are 66s available, in fact GBRf are still bringing more in! Also DB seem to have quite a few spare.

But if RailAdventure do need to use 43s, what’s the point of using 4? I get that just 2 are powering, but surely it would be more economic to have 1 PC at each end? Well, to be honest, if you’re the kind of person running the railway, I may as well give up and start using buses instead.

Yes I do have better things to do than concern myself with ridiculous comments about aircraft

Yes I do think Class 43s are an effective use of locomotives, they are no longer 125mph passenger locos because nobody wants them as 125mph passenger locos, they have no use to anyone other than as scrap metal so why are you so much against them?

There may well be 57s available, whether the owners wish to sell them is a completely different matter, the 86s are in very poor and worn out condition and would be of no use without diesels to work with them

GBRf have access to 66s through Beacon Rail, why would Beacon Rail make them available to competitors of GBRf?

DB have no 66s available for sale

You've answered your own question about the use of four power cars, there aren't four in use

Having one power car at each end would simply mean that only one power car would be powering whatever weight was being hauled, do you / have you ever signed 43s? if so then you will know how underpowered one on its own is

Please feel free to start using the bus whenever you wish

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2023 ==

A slight correction… They bought six of the eight: the other two are NMT power cars.

Yes of course, I was thinking of 43296 & 43308 the two they bought for spares

 

[Class15]

Yes I do have better things to do than concern myself with ridiculous comments about aircraft

The comment about aircraft was an exaggeration on the fact that you seem to like using types of transport for things which they are far too “good” for.

Yes I do think Class 43s are an effective use of locomotives, they are no longer 125mph passenger locos because nobody wants them as 125mph passenger locos, they have no use to anyone other than as scrap metal so why are you so much against them?

I’m not “against” the HSTs, in fact I rather like them, but I think that it’s uneconomical to use them for these duties.

There may well be 57s available, whether the owners wish to sell them is a completely different matter, the 86s are in very poor and worn out condition and would be of no use without diesels to work with them

Ok, I understand that. Sorry.

GBRf have access to 66s through Beacon Rail, why would Beacon Rail make them available to competitors of GBRf?
DB have no 66s available for sale

“DB have no 66s for sale”

I think you can explain for yourself why that doesn’t make sense. They have a fleet waaaaay to large for the work they are used on, so if they’re not available for sale, then DB are idiots.

You've answered your own question about the use of four power cars, there aren't four in use

No I haven’t actually, I’m saying that why do you have 2 125mph power cars just sitting there not powering in a train?

Having one power car at each end would simply mean that only one power car would be powering whatever weight was being hauled, do you / have you ever signed 43s? if so then you will know how underpowered one on its own is

“Top and tail” ring a bell to you?

Please feel free to start using the bus whenever you wish

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2023 ==

Well, I will, if you’re the kind of person who runs our horrific mess of a railway system where we put 66s on liners under the wires!!!

Ok, I got some things wrong, I’m not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, I just don’t see the point of this. I’m probably wrong, and I’m sorry for wasting your time if I am.

 

[XAM2175]

It’s like having 4 class 66s hauling an RHTT train.

Employing a fantastically simple comparison, the MTU 16V 4000 engines in those power cars each have a displacement of 76 L. The EMD 12-710 engines used by 66s have a displacement of 140 L.

No I haven’t actually, I’m saying that why do you have 2 125mph power cars just sitting there not powering in a train?

Because they're cheap to buy.

“Top and tail” ring a bell to you?

Ok, I got some things wrong, I’m not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, I just don’t see the point of this. I’m probably wrong, and I’m sorry for wasting your time if I am.

It's spectacularly ironic that both of these are quotes from the same post. It's like running around shouting "I'M RIGHT, I'M RIGHT, I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE STUPID" and then whispering under your breath "but I might be wrong and now that I've admitted it I don't know why you're still unhappy with me".

 

[Class15]

It's spectacularly ironic that both of these are quotes from the same post. It's like running around shouting "I'M RIGHT, I'M RIGHT, I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE STUPID" and then whispering under your breath "but I might be wrong and now that I've admitted it I don't know why you're still unhappy with me".

I think it’s you who’s just made a fantastically simple comparison.

 

[DanNCL]

GBRf have access to 66s through Beacon Rail, why would Beacon Rail make them available to competitors of GBRf?

GBRF were a subcontractor for RailAdventure before the 43/4s were available. The two companies have a good working relationship, I doubt GBRF would object to RailAdventure acquiring 66s of their own.

More likely here is RailAdventure don’t want them as 66s don’t fit with their business model.

 

[The Chimaera]

Perhaps I am wrong but I always assumed that the large amount of barrier/translator wagons and two loco combinations on each end was more to do with brake force, the unit in between not having compatible brakes and just having a temporary ‘through pipe’? So they (the unit) are unbraked during these delivery moves. These translator wagons only seem to translate the coupling and I can’t imagine the power cars have been given any fancy brake translation equipment.
There was a case a few years ago of such a movement running by a red signal because of a lack of brake force, so these combinations are the response.

 

[D365]

“DB have no 66s for sale”

I think you can explain for yourself why that doesn’t make sense. They have a fleet waaaaay to large for the work they are used on, so if they’re not available for sale, then DB are idiots.

Look at the long line of 60s still dumped at Toton.

 

[DarloRich]

what is the reason for the double double power car arrangement?

 

[DanNCL]

Perhaps I am wrong but I always assumed that the large amount of barrier/translator wagons and two loco combinations on each end was more to do with brake force, the unit in between not having compatible brakes and just having a temporary ‘through pipe’? So they (the unit) are unbraked during these delivery moves. These translator wagons only seem to translate the coupling and I can’t imagine the power cars have been given any fancy brake translation equipment.
There was a case a few years ago of such a movement running by a red signal because of a lack of brake force, so these combinations are the response.

Correct. The wagons directly attached to the unit have coupling adaptors, the rest are solely there for brake force. 555 deliveries have to be dragged by a four unit formation of Metrocars on Nexus infrastructure for the same reason - power wise two would be sufficient.

what is the reason for the double double power car arrangement?

It’s used on the Merseyrail deliveries because of the need to reverse where a run around isn’t possible.

No such requirement on the Metro deliveries so only a single pair of 43s are used.

 

[DarloRich]

It’s used on the Merseyrail deliveries because of the need to reverse where a run around isn’t possible.

No such requirement on the Metro deliveries so only a single pair of 43s are used.

thanks - i thought that was the reason but that i was missing something!

 

[Sm5]

If it were economically viable Rail Adventure could have bought 58’s from France and rebuild them… but beyond that, and Scrap 60’s… theres nowt to buy….

They bought the HSTs power as presumably because they were cheap, running and available to buy.

Dragging units about doesnt seem worthy of a $4mn plus per loco investment in new loco construction… so options are slim…

They could look at buying up preserved locos and bringing them back… that is afterall why the DRS 37/4’s are still here.

 

[Class15]

So just to clarify, do the RailAdventure power cars go from Dollands Moor or Wembley? If Dollands Moor, then maybe 4 is suitable, if wembley then maybe not.

Also, I apologise for my earlier posts here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2023 ==

If it were economically viable Rail Adventure could have bought 58’s from France and rebuild them… but beyond that, and Scrap 60’s… theres nowt to buy….

They bought the HSTs power as presumably because they were cheap, running and available to buy.

Dragging units about doesnt seem worthy of a $4mn plus per loco investment in new loco construction… so options are slim…

They could look at buying up preserved locos and bringing them back… that is afterall why the DRS 37/4’s are still here.

The 43s didn’t look in great condition when they were at Willesden in April 2022!

 

[Sm5]

So just to clarify, do the RailAdventure power cars go from Dollands Moor or Wembley? If Dollands Moor, then maybe 4 is suitable, if wembley then maybe not.

Also, I apologise for my earlier posts here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Mar 2023 ==


The 43s didn’t look in great condition when they were at Willesden in April 2022!

From Wembley… HSTs dont go south east of the Thames, never have… closest was Waterloo diverts…

LSL and Rail Adventure powercars have made Eastleigh down the SWML.

 

[Class15]

From Wembley… HSTs dont go south east of the Thames, never have… closest was Waterloo diverts.

Might be off-topic but a quick question regarding that - what hauls the units to Wembley?

 

[Cowley]

OK. Obviously carry on with the discussions, but please be patient and polite from in this new thread from here please.

 

[Class15]

OK. Obviously carry on with the discussions, but please be patient and polite from in this new thread from here please.

Ok, thanks Cowley.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I always find these sorts of threads where people get angry about the environmental impact of the motive power or routing of one-off or sporadic workings amusing. In the grand, global scheme how much environmental damage does delivering 50-odd units to Merseyside really cause regardless of the motive power used?

 

[Sm5]

“DB have no 66s for sale”

I think you can explain for yourself why that doesn’t make sense. They have a fleet waaaaay to large for the work they are used on, so if they’re not available for sale,

Scrapping and replacement is no longer like BR days.
Selling locos to your competitor has to be carefully considered.
once the asset is gone, its gone from your control and could be used against you.

Its unlikely the UK will see any more diesel locomotives constructed. Electrification is a constraint and battery technology is still a unicorn.
So for a few decades the UK will need to make do with what exists.

I was actually surprised the French 58s have been scrapped, as that was probably the last chance of an EMD rebuild, so DB have obviously done the math and worked out that with its ECR 66’s and Toton 60’s they can secure their future… but equally their removal of the 58’s just removed a chess piece that could help their competition…

That leaves non DB 66’s on the continent, which GBRF is slowly nibbling.

I think at some point most of the global fleet of 66’s will end up here in some form of service or spares.

The only other scenario I can think of, could be reviving HST power cars for low speed engineers trains on the HS2 construction project.

After that is grabbing preserved diesels, or biting the bullet.. buying new locomotives at high investment costs…£4mn+ per loco, which is still constrained off the OHLE… This would be uncompetitive against DB as DB can always undercut you and bring a 66 from France or a 67 back to life, or revive a 60 at a fraction of the new build cost.

I do wonder DB Cargos long term commitment to the UK, their newest loco is 67030 entering service in August 2000… making it 23 years old this year… 66250 was June 2000… I wonder if Siemens will come up with a UK spec Vectron or if DB is simply sweating assets in slow attrition until the fleet life expires?

Theres always scope for a dark horse though… Adif in Spain just bought a fleet of 22 Stadler Euro lights (class 68’s to you and me)… intriguingly they ordered them to UK loading gauge specification… their purpose apparently is to act as thunderbirds in Spain… quite expensive rescue locos they are.

 

[43096]

Might be off-topic but a quick question regarding that - what hauls the units to Wembley?

RailAdventure contract haulage from Calais to Wembley to DB Cargo currently.

 

[D365]

After that is grabbing preserved diesels, or biting the bullet.. buying new locomotives at high investment costs…£4mn+ per loco, which is still constrained off the OHLE…

Theres always scope for a dark horse though… Adif in Spain just bought a fleet of 22 Stadler Euro lights (class 68’s to you and me)… intriguingly they ordered them to UK loading gauge specification… their purpose apparently is to act as thunderbirds in Spain… quite expensive rescue locos they are.

You say this, but my fag-packet calculations suggest that [adjusted for inflation] a £4m loco is not far off what BR would have paid for a top-end 'modernisation' diesel.

 

[Class15]

RailAdventure contract haulage from Calais to Wembley to DB Cargo currently.

Thanks for clarifying!

 

[Sm5]

You say this, but my fag-packet calculations suggest that [adjusted for inflation] a £4m loco is not far off what BR would have paid for a top-end 'modernisation' diesel.

Yes but this is 2023.

Part the reason our GDP is poor is our productivity is poor.
Productivity is poor because of lack of investment.
Regulations all but prevent new diesels. Electrification is poor and battery is a pipe dream..

Why spend £200mn on 50 locos that do half a job, when your competitor can spend £5mn reviving a mix bag class 60/67/90 or repatriate 66s and still do half a job, win the contract with lower costs ?

Not that theres any new investment business in the UK that could justify such investment anyway, as most sectors of the UK economy are in a similar boat with their own blend of issues, regulations and constraints.

Until someone arrives with a bag of money on our shores we are going nowhere as a country. It could have been China but the US wont allow that. We left Europe so thats out, and the US themselves are far more interested in their own issues to spend here. That leaves Africa, South America or Australia to come and save us…. So I guess the 60’s are safe for now.

 

[D365]

Yes but this is 2023.

Hence why I've taken inflation into account.

And in response to the remainder - why is DBC not winning more work? RailAdventure has clearly found a market for further use of Class 43s.

 

[Sm5]

Hence why I've taken inflation into account.

And in response to the remainder - why is DBC not winning more work?

Thats a question only DB can answer.

But it will boil down to one of revenue or expenses.

I wonder if the 555 drags from France to Wembley has a bearing on bringing 92’s back into Network Rail acceptance again ?

But its case in point, the costs of RA coming up with a solution to come through the tunnel, or even from Dollands moor is prohibitive against a cheap “use an old loco with an incumbent operator” alternative from Wembley.

 

[43096]

Regulations all but prevent new diesels. Electrification is poor and battery is a pipe dream..

Why spend £200mn on 50 locos that do half a job, when your competitor can spend £5mn reviving a mix bag class 60/67/90 or repatriate 66s and still do half a job, win the contract with lower costs ?

Yet GBRf have made a business case for buying 30 new electro-diesels, with an option for 20 more.

 

[DanNCL]

If it were economically viable Rail Adventure could have bought 58’s from France and rebuild them… but beyond that, and Scrap 60’s… theres nowt to buy….

They bought the HSTs power as presumably because they were cheap, running and available to buy.

Dragging units about doesnt seem worthy of a $4mn plus per loco investment in new loco construction… so options are slim…

They could look at buying up preserved locos and bringing them back… that is afterall why the DRS 37/4’s are still here.

For the 58s and 60s, in both cases they're locos that are massively overpowered and unsuited to the work that RailAdventure do, and in any case DB won't sell them anywhere other than scrap and preservation.

The 37/4s are with DRS as until the 43s became available there was nothing newer with a good enough Route Availability for some of the Network Rail work DRS do, specifically the Autumn RHTTs.

So just to clarify, do the RailAdventure power cars go from Dollands Moor or Wembley? If Dollands Moor, then maybe 4 is suitable, if wembley then maybe not.

Might be off-topic but a quick question regarding that - what hauls the units to Wembley?

A DB 66 hauls both the Merseyrail and Metro arrivals to Wembley where the 43s take over.

The 43s didn’t look in great condition when they were at Willesden in April 2022!

Cosmetically they looked scruffy as they'd had all over vinyls from their time with EMT/EMR removed. Mechanically they were in reasonable condition.

Selling locos to your competitor has to be carefully considered.
once the asset is gone, its gone from your control and could be used against you.

Not just locos but units too. Eurostar wouldn't allow their surplus 373s to go anywhere other than scrap to prevent any potential competitor from snapping them up and threaten Eurostar's monopoly in the channel tunnel market.

The only other scenario I can think of, could be reviving HST power cars for low speed engineers trains on the HS2 construction project.

After that is grabbing preserved diesels, or biting the bullet.. buying new locomotives at high investment costs…£4mn+ per loco, which is still constrained off the OHLE… This would be uncompetitive against DB as DB can always undercut you and bring a 66 from France or a 67 back to life, or revive a 60 at a fraction of the new build cost.

I do wonder DB Cargos long term commitment to the UK, their newest loco is 67030 entering service in August 2000… making it 23 years old this year… 66250 was June 2000… I wonder if Siemens will come up with a UK spec Vectron or if DB is simply sweating assets in slow attrition until the fleet life expires?

Theres always scope for a dark horse though… Adif in Spain just bought a fleet of 22 Stadler Euro lights (class 68’s to you and me)… intriguingly they ordered them to UK loading gauge specification… their purpose apparently is to act as thunderbirds in Spain… quite expensive rescue locos they are.

More likely than HS2 construction trains for the 43s would be replacing the remaining 37s in departmental use. RHTTs definitely aren't out of the question for 43s in the future.

EWS carried out what is effectively a full fleet renewal in the late 90s, with only stuff built up to 10 years prior surviving. DB Cargo therefore find themselves with a large fleet that'll all reach life expiry at the same time. One could definitely see a 300+ loco order being placed by DB towards the end of the decade, as the 66s start to show their age.

I wonder if the 555 drags from France to Wembley has a bearing on bringing 92’s back into Network Rail acceptance again ?

Unlikely. A 66 hauls the 555s from Dollands Moor to Wembley. The 92s (usually a pair) only does the tunnel leg and does so in one of the regular freight paths. DB have been hiring GBRF 92s for a long time, it's usually one of 92032 or 92044 on hire to DB but Sleeper liveried examples have found their way onto DB tunnel work too as well as GBRF's own tunnel work. The work on the DB 92s is more likely to reduce DB's dependence on GBRF for the Channel Tunnel workings.

But its case in point, the costs of RA coming up with a solution to come through the tunnel, or even from Dollands moor is prohibitive against a cheap “use an old loco with an incumbent operator” alternative from Wembley.

RailAdventure could theoretically get their Siemens ES64U4 modified and cleared for use there, but as it's also their only loco able to reach Velim it wouldn't make any sense for them to modify it to work one way deliveries through the Channel Tunnel, work which'll almost certainly dry up completely after delivery of the last 555.

Yet GBRf have made a business case for buying 30 new electro-diesels, with an option for 20 more.

GBRF seem to be quite good at making a business case for stuff that nobody else is able to.

 

[Trainbike46]

Firstly can I just say that it's funny that so many people are saying there will be no new independently powered locomotives for the uk, when the 68s were build relatively recently, and the 99s are on order for GBRf. On top of that there's the 88s and 93s, which while much less powerful on diesel do play a role as they have last mile capability, which otherwise would require a diesel locomotive throughout

Not just locos but units too. Eurostar wouldn't allow their surplus 373s to go anywhere other than scrap to prevent any potential competitor from snapping them up and threaten Eurostar's monopoly in the channel tunnel market.

I'm genuinely surprised eurostar didn't lease more of them out to SNCF or it's subsidiaries (e.g. Thalys, now part of Eurostar), for use in France or Belgium. Specifically as Thalys was very short of rolling stock. Selling was obviously risky, but if you lease them out you can keep them controlled

 

[D365]

Firstly can I just say that it's funny that so many people are saying there will be no new independently powered locomotives for the uk, when the 68s were build relatively recently, and the 99s are on order for GBRf. On top of that there's the 88s and 93s, which while much less powerfull on diesel do play a role as they have last mile capability, which otherwise would require a diesel locomotive throughout

You're right, but unless the Transpennine routes are >80% electrified, the Stadler electrodiesels won't be suitable.

 

[Trainbike46]

You're right, but unless the Transpennine routes are >80% electrified, the Stadler electrodiesels won't be suitable.

I mean, this is a thread about freight locos, and I definitely wasn't suggesting the 88s, 93s, or 99s for TPE Mk 5s!

 

[D365]

I mean, this is a thread about freight locos, and I definitely wasn't suggesting the 88s, 93s, or 99s for TPE Mk 5s!

My mistake, I thought I was back on the Mk5 discussion!