Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

[Mollman]

Realtime Trains | 6L22 1659 Dollands Moor Sdgs to Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs | 27/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 6L22 1659 departure from Dollands Moor Sdgs to Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs on 27/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I'm guessing they'll be attached to this 92 freight drag up HS1 today.

Some good images on Flickr (not mine)
https://flic.kr/p/2opzFpD
https://flic.kr/p/2opwmjb

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes.

The step comes out to meet the platform edge. The train has to be stationary when deployed.

There isn't any obvious solution to the slow door release then; shame. I guess it does have a useful safety benefit though.

231s have been tested as far as my home town, Pontypridd. I saw an article that TfW will clear the core Valleys for 231s. Seems bizarre to me that Pontypridd gets trams, but Caerphilly gets Flirts with toilets. Will Pontypridd passengers feel they have the inferior trains ?

In my view the big issue isn't Pontypridd vs Caerphilly but Treherbert/Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare vs Coryton. Bizarre, from a passenger's point of view, that the latter gets trains with toilet facilities and the others (much further from Cardiff) get trams without. From an operational perspective though, I assume the Welsh Government had the new depot at Taffs Well locked-in when Arriva were still running the trains and the ODP bidders for the new contract had to fit round that? (ODP = Operator and Development Partner).

If TfW had been given control of Penarth and the Vale of Glamorgan lines they would probably have been 398's as well. The whole idea is these lines have more potential to expand, eg: Hirwaun, Creigiau, etc which will be easier with trams. Plus they allow on street running which is needed to expand further across the network such as Splott, Tremorfa etc. The Pontypridd lines are now effectively a Metro system like the one in Manchester with high density running and potentially for expansion. The chances of FLIRTS or any other trains running on them is not zero, but it's low.

However, the proposals for extensions make the lack of a toilet an even bigger problem - Aberdare to Cardiff Central is already over an hour, even if the 398s trim that a bit Hirwaun will still in all probability also be over an hour.

Also, the early maps for the South Wales Metro concept also proposals for the following new routes which would branch off from routes which are currently planned to be worked by FLIRTs (although at the time the I don't think it was known what form TfW's new stock would take):

• Caerphilly - Blackwood
• Heath High/Low Level - Cardiff Gate
• Abertillery branch (off Ebbw Vale Line)
• Caerphilly - Treharris
• Pye Corner - Caerphilly

As well as that wasn't there issues with electrifying the whole Rhymney line? Which is why the bi-mode Flirts were deemed a better fit along with commonality of the 231s?

I could be wrong but don't think anything was claimed to be insummountable re. electrification. As I understand it, it is simply a case of 'smart'/'disingenious'/discontinuous electrification being adopted across the Core Valley Lines (CVL) in an effort to limit costs. Caerphilly tunnel is therefore is not expected to be wired and I think there were rumours and/or reports that the battery capacity on the 398s is not sufficient to reliably bridge a gap in the wires that long.

The 756s are tri-mode. Perhaps they don't want bi-modes getting stuck in Caerphilly tunnel and running out of battery?

I'm pretty sure that, as part of their winning bid, KeolisAmey promissed 100% electric operation (overhead and battery modes only) on the CVL. The diesel mode was for the Vale Of Glamorgan where there may be at risk of running out of battery.

For the Coryton line I expect it would depend on what the service pattern is expected to be. Maybe they will run south of Cardiff like the Rhymneys.

Yes, I think that (and/or difficultly getting to the tram-train depot at Taffs Well without building new/re-openned lines) is why Coryton is expected to see the rather-superior FLIRTs rather than the tram-trains.

I understand that, unlike the CVL, the other bit of TfW-owned rail infrustructure (Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay) is to be converted to line-of-sight operation and cease to be a heavy rail route. The FLIRTs will therefore be unable to run to Cardiff Bay and sadly at present the plan is for the Heads Of The Valleys beyond Pontypridd to have through services to Cardiff Bay and therefore they cannot have FLIRTs without remapping the planned through working.

(I think the idea of automatically locking doors above a certain speed is also quite comon on railways).

But here in the UK, trains carrying passengers are not allowed to start moving until the doors have already been locked aren't they?

Coryton services will also be 756s, the 3 cars, and will run to Penarth. Combined with 2tph Caerphilly to Penarth service, also 3 cars, this will give Penarth branch a train every 15 minutes. Rhymney services (every 15 minutes) will run towards Barry, I think its 2tph to Barry Island and 2tph to Bridgend.

Downgrade for Barry Island in terms of frequency if we’re going to be really pernickety.

Barry Island is currently 3tph isn't it? If so, the maps published when the franchise details were announced show that the frequency would be 3tph (ie. unchanged). I can't find the original source for the maps in question, but I have found copies of them as linked below:

• https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/5E20/production/_101869042_metromap18.jpg.webp (summary map of Metro frequencies)
• https://swalesmetroprof.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/tfwrail-proposed-cvl-metro-services.png (more-detailed map of central area, showing indivdual service groups)

The latter is a little hard to read, but as far as I can tell it is as louis97 wrote above plus the 3rd train each hour for Barry Island which I think is a shuttle to/from Cardiff Central.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There isn't any obvious solution to the slow door release then; shame. I guess it does have a useful safety benefit though.


In my view the big issue isn't Pontypridd vs Caerphilly but Treherbert/Merthyr Tydfil/Aberdare vs Coryton. Bizarre, from a passenger's point of view, that the latter gets trains with toilet facilities and the others (much further from Cardiff) get trams without. From an operational perspective though, I assume the Welsh Government had the new depot at Taffs Well locked-in when Arriva were still running the trains and the ODP bidders for the new contract had to fit round that? (ODP = Operator and Development Partner).


However, the proposals for extensions make the lack of a toilet an even bigger problem - Aberdare to Cardiff Central is already over an hour, even if the 398s trim that a bit Hirwaun will still in all probability also be over an hour.

Also, the early maps for the South Wales Metro concept also proposals for the following new routes which would branch off from routes which are currently planned to be worked by FLIRTs (although at the time the I don't think it was known what form TfW's new stock would take):

• Caerphilly - Blackwood
• Heath High/Low Level - Cardiff Gate
• Abertillery branch (off Ebbw Vale Line)
• Caerphilly - Treharris
• Pye Corner - Caerphilly

I could be wrong but don't think anything was claimed to be insummountable re. electrification. As I understand it, it is simply a case of 'smart'/'disingenious'/discontinuous electrification being adopted across the Core Valley Lines (CVL) in an effort to limit costs. Caerphilly tunnel is therefore is not expected to be wired and I think there were rumours and/or reports that the battery capacity on the 398s is not sufficient to reliably bridge a gap in the wires that long.


I'm pretty sure that, as part of their winning bid, KeolisAmey promissed 100% electric operation (overhead and battery modes only) on the CVL. The diesel mode was for the Vale Of Glamorgan where there may be at risk of running out of battery.


Yes, I think that (and/or difficultly getting to the tram-train depot at Taffs Well without building new/re-openned lines) is why Coryton is expected to see the rather-superior FLIRTs rather than the tram-trains.

I understand that, unlike the CVL, the other bit of TfW-owned rail infrustructure (Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay) is to be converted to line-of-sight operation and cease to be a heavy rail route. The FLIRTs will therefore be unable to run to Cardiff Bay and sadly at present the plan is for the Heads Of The Valleys beyond Pontypridd to have through services to Cardiff Bay and therefore they cannot have FLIRTs without remapping the planned through working.


But here in the UK, trains carrying passengers are not allowed to start moving until the doors have already been locked aren't they?


Barry Island is currently 3tph isn't it? If so, the maps published when the franchise details were announced show that the frequency would be 3tph (ie. unchanged). I can't find the original source for the maps in question, but I have found copies of them as linked below:

• https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/5E20/production/_101869042_metromap18.jpg.webp (summary map of Metro frequencies)
• https://swalesmetroprof.files.wordpress.com/2019/07/tfwrail-proposed-cvl-metro-services.png (more-detailed map of central area, showing indivdual service groups)

The latter is a little hard to read, but as far as I can tell it is as louis97 wrote above plus the 3rd train each hour for Barry Island which I think is a shuttle to/from Cardiff Central.

It is 3tph yes, but not every 20 minutes, instead effectively an every 15 minute operation with one train an hour missing so it can go to Bridgend instead, causing a half-hour gap.

 

[Snow1964]

Transport for Wales has issued Press release on its launch of the new trains in South Wales at Caerphilly at 10am today

Article includes photos and a video

TfW launch brand new South Wales Metro trains

The first of the brand-new South Wales Metro trains were today (29 March) launched by Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters MS at a ceremony in Caerphilly, signifying the start of a new transport era.

news.tfw.wales

29 Mar 2023​

The first of the brand-new South Wales Metro trains were today (29 March) launched by Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters MS at a ceremony in Caerphilly, signifying the start of a new transport era.

The Class 231 Fast Light Intercity and Regional Trains (FLIRTs), built by leading manufacturer Stadler, are part of the £800 million investment Transport for Wales is making in brand-new trains for the Wales and Borders network.

Providing increased capacity with more and improved seating, modern air conditioning, power sockets and passenger information screens with up-to-the-minute travel information, the new trains will transform the customer experience.

With the first one officially launched on the Rhymney Valley line today, TfW will continue to introduce 35 of these trains over the coming years throughout South Wales, along with 36 electric tram-trains.

Each train will have space for up to six bikes and automatic level boarding to assist those with limited mobility.

 

[Energy]

I'm pretty sure that, as part of their winning bid, KeolisAmey promissed 100% electric operation (overhead and battery modes only) on the CVL. The diesel mode was for the Vale Of Glamorgan where there may be at risk of running out of battery.

There is only 1 diesel engine with the rest being battery so it being for emergencies would make sense.

 

[Bob Price]

Transport for Wales has issued Press release on its launch of the new trains in South Wales at Caerphilly at 10am today

Article includes photos and a video

TfW launch brand new South Wales Metro trains

The first of the brand-new South Wales Metro trains were today (29 March) launched by Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters MS at a ceremony in Caerphilly, signifying the start of a new transport era.

news.tfw.wales

Apparently the first one has been named Sultan after the pit pony memorial at Parc Penalta. There is a list of names which have been submitted by school children across Wales. Apparently adults aren't trusted to make suggestions.

 

[Envoy]

Apparently the first one has been named Sultan after the pit pony memorial at Parc Penalta. There is a list of names which have been submitted by school children across Wales. Apparently adults aren't trusted to make suggestions.

Who would know that ‘Sultan’ was a pity pony? I think most people will think it is something to do with India.

 

[Bob Price]

I did actually know that but my daughter lives down the road. Some of the names are relevant but others are a bit odd. A good number just seem to be random Welsh towns which don't have any rail connection such as Oakdale and Pentwyn.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Who would know that ‘Sultan’ was a pity pony? I think most people will think it is something to do with India.

I always associate the name with 33 025 which I think was to do with Mountbatten; it was his command in the Navy wasn't it? One of two named in connection with his funeral, the other being 33 056 which carried his name?

 

[43096]

I always associate the name with 33 025 which I think was to do with Mountbatten; it was his command in the Navy wasn't it? One of two named in connection with his funeral, the other being 33 056 which carried his name?

73142 was also a Mountbatten related naming.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So where are these 756s hiding or getting tested/trained on ?. I am off to Cardiff for some odd days and will try and hit the right places. Probably Canton across the mainlines from a bit of a cul-de-sac or maybe a flypast to Ninian Park..

 

[penguin8967]

So where are these 756s hiding or getting tested/trained on ?

Mileage accumulation runs to Swindon I believe, 2 return paths on weekdays (although none ran today, here's one from yesterday). Post #1037 in this thread has an image of one at Swindon. Stored at Canton when not out.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Mileage accumulation runs to Swindon I believe, 2 return paths on weekdays (although none ran today, here's one from yesterday). Stored at Canton when not out.

Thanks for that I will rummage for the 3QXX codes then.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Transport for Wales has issued Press release on its launch of the new trains in South Wales at Caerphilly at 10am today

Article includes photos and a video

TfW launch brand new South Wales Metro trains

The first of the brand-new South Wales Metro trains were today (29 March) launched by Deputy Minister for Climate Change, Lee Waters MS at a ceremony in Caerphilly, signifying the start of a new transport era.

news.tfw.wales

Odd that the article says "TfW will continue to introduce 35 of these trains" (meaning the FLIRTs in general I assume, given that only 11 class 231s are on-order) and yet also mentions "class 231" specifically without using the number 756 anywhere (to refer to the remaining 24 TfW FLIRTs) in the article. It is very much written as though all 35 TfW FLIRTs are going to be class 231s, which of course is not actually the case.

Apparently the first one has been named Sultan after the pit pony memorial at Parc Penalta. There is a list of names which have been submitted by school children across Wales. Apparently adults aren't trusted to make suggestions.

Is that a 231 or a 756 that has received the name 'Sultan'? Apparently, the memorial in question is near Caerphilly (I had to look this up, since I don't think I've ever heard of this memorial, so if it isn't blame Google). Thus, if it's a 231 then perhaps adults shouldn't be trusted to assign names to units either, since the 231s aren't expected to be running through Caerphilly long-term and a 756 would probably be a more-appropriate choice to carry that name.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Odd that the article says "TfW will continue to introduce 35 of these trains" (meaning the FLIRTs in general I assume, given that only 11 class 231s are on-order) and yet also mentions "class 231" specifically without using the number 756 anywhere (to refer to the remaining 24 TfW FLIRTs) in the article. It is very much written as though all 35 TfW FLIRTs are going to be class 231s, which of course is not actually the case.


Is that a 231 or a 756 that has received the name 'Sultan'? Apparently, the memorial in question is near Caerphilly (I had to look this up, since I don't think I've ever heard of this memorial, so if it isn't blame Google). Thus, if it's a 231 then perhaps adults shouldn't be trusted to assign names to units either, since the 231s aren't expected to be running through Caerphilly long-term and a 756 would probably be a more-appropriate choice to carry that name.

You have a tendency to take very small issues and make them out to be something especially serious. TfW will indeed introduce 35 of the FLIRTS, and the two types to the average person are completely identical, the main point being it will introduce 35 brand new trains.

As for “adults shouldn't be trusted to assign names,” really? They’ve named a South Wales train after something not quite on the route. It’s not high treason. I’m sure Caerphilly will not crumble to the ground as a result.

 

[Bob Price]

Not my point. Yes Sultan is at Penalta, it's a very striking memorial to pit ponies and worth a wander to have a look. My point is there are perhaps names which could have been considered which school children may not have even thought of but there is no mechanism to allow us to do so. However knowing they would have been inundated with 'Trainy McTrain Face' and 'Rail Replacement Bus' perhaps they have a point. There is a list somewhere. Gelert, Oakdale, and Maesteg Town Hall are coming soon.

Winners | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

 

[Envoy]

Not my point. Yes Sultan is at Penalta, it's a very striking memorial to pit ponies and worth a wander to have a look. My point is there are perhaps names which could have been considered which school children may not have even thought of but there is no mechanism to allow us to do so. However knowing they would have been inundated with 'Trainy McTrain Face' and 'Rail Replacement Bus' perhaps they have a point. There is a list somewhere. Gelert, Oakdale, and Maesteg Town Hall are coming soon.

Winners | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

Looks like nobody asked people in Gloucestershire to come up with names for trains. (The Class 231’s will eventually be used on the line to Cheltenham via Lydney). Perhaps Transport for Wales just wanted Welsh based names?

 

[Bob Price]

Looks like nobody asked people in Gloucestershire to come up with names for trains. (The Class 231’s will eventually be used on the line to Cheltenham via Lydney). Perhaps Transport for Wales just wanted Welsh based names?

They did say they asked children across the Wales and Borders region but I agree the names are very Welsh centric.

 

[Snow1964]

Not my point. Yes Sultan is at Penalta, it's a very striking memorial to pit ponies and worth a wander to have a look. My point is there are perhaps names which could have been considered which school children may not have even thought of but there is no mechanism to allow us to do so. However knowing they would have been inundated with 'Trainy McTrain Face' and 'Rail Replacement Bus' perhaps they have a point. There is a list somewhere. Gelert, Oakdale, and Maesteg Town Hall are coming soon.

Winners | Transport for Wales

Transport for Wales | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

tfw.wales

I wonder if there will be naming ceremonies at each of the locations (or more precisely at nearest station to each), or if names will just quietly be added.

 

[St. Paddy]

Odd that the article says "TfW will continue to introduce 35 of these trains" (meaning the FLIRTs in general I assume, given that only 11 class 231s are on-order) and yet also mentions "class 231" specifically without using the number 756 anywhere (to refer to the remaining 24 TfW FLIRTs) in the article. It is very much written as though all 35 TfW FLIRTs are going to be class 231s, which of course is not actually the case.

Perhaps they decided not to mention the 756 yet as they aren’t planned to enter service until 2025

 

[superalbs]

Certainly in Switzerland they don't retract until the driver closes up for departure so if the door is reopened they are already in place. I half recall they do extend when release is pressed but I might be remembering wrongly.

On some stock, this isn't true.

Source: I was just there.

 

[Trainbike46]

Does anyone know why TfW got 231s (diesel-only), rather than 755s (bimode)? Obviously they have the 756 trimodes for the valleys, but why would they get diesel only units, and to air pollution at Cardiff?

 

[Bob Price]

Does anyone know why TfW got 231s (diesel-only), rather than 755s (bimode)? Obviously they have the 756 trimodes for the valleys, but why would they get diesel only units, and to air pollution at Cardiff?

The amount of wires they operate under are relatively small - Cardiff to Seven Tunnel Junction - so they would be carrying around an amount of dead weight for a lot of the journey. If the Ebbw Vale and Maesteg lines had been electrified as originally promised by Westminster it would have made more sense.

 

[Envoy]

Does anyone know why TfW got 231s (diesel-only), rather than 755s (bimode)? Obviously they have the 756 trimodes for the valleys, but why would they get diesel only units, and to air pollution at Cardiff?

I agree - and Severn Tunnel Junction to Cardiff is already wired - all 4 tracks. Surely, the odds of electrifying Cardiff to Bridgend in the next few years must be high?

 

[Dai Corner]

Does anyone know why TfW got 231s (diesel-only), rather than 755s (bimode)? Obviously they have the 756 trimodes for the valleys, but why would they get diesel only units, and to air pollution at Cardiff?

756s wouldn't have the range or performance required to work the non-electrified parts of the routes they'll be used on (Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham).

 

[Bob Price]

I agree - and Severn Tunnel Junction to Cardiff is already wired - all 4 tracks. Surely, the odds of electrifying Cardiff to Bridgend in the next few years must be high?

Not at all. This government isn't interested in anything electric. Still chasing the Hydrogen rainbow. Had that been there then 756's could have worked.

 

[Trainbike46]

756s wouldn't have the range or performance required to work the non-electrified parts of the routes they'll be used on (Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham).

That's why I asked about 755 bimodess, like the ones GA uses on a range of routes, many of which have even less electrification than the the TfW routes the 231s are for, rather than the 756 trimodes

I agree - and Severn Tunnel Junction to Cardiff is already wired - all 4 tracks. Surely, the odds of electrifying Cardiff to Bridgend in the next few years must be high?

You would hope so, but the government (as in westminster) doesn't currently seem very interested in investing in the railways unfortunately.

The amount of wires they operate under are relatively small - Cardiff to Seven Tunnel Junction - so they would be carrying around an amount of dead weight for a lot of the journey. If the Ebbw Vale and Maesteg lines had been electrified as originally promised by Westminster it would have made more sense.

The only extra things they would need are pantographs and 25kV transformers right, as the units are DEMUs?

That's not that much extra things, and as above, GA did in fact do that for routes with even less electrification.

It would have removed diesel from the (busy) Cardiff station

 

[Dai Corner]

It would have removed diesel from the (busy) Cardiff station

Well, apart from the trains to/from Swansea and west Wales, Manchester, Holyhead and Portsmouth, and freight.

 

[56xx]

Well, apart from the trains to/from Swansea and west Wales, Manchester, Holyhead and Portsmouth, and freight.

And the considerable freight traffic

 

[Trainbike46]

Well, apart from the trains to/from Swansea and west Wales, Manchester, Holyhead and Portsmouth, and freight.

I guess reduced the number of diesel trains would have been a more accurate statement, sorry!