How do signallers know which platform to send trains to?

[BanburyBlue]

Hi all,

Here at Banbury we have 4 platforms. XC and through trains use platforms 2 and 3, whereas the GW Oxford/Didcot terminators and the Chiltern Marylebone terminators use platforms 1 or 4. Sometimes the Chiltern services terminate on platform 1, and sometimes on platform 4, and the same applies to the GWR services. Likewise, when I travel to Birmingham Snow Hill, some services terminate on platform 1 and some on platform 2.

In the overall scheme of things, these are small stations, so the situation is many times more complicated with some where like Birmingham New Street. There are often discussions on this forum to say stations like Birmingham New Street are at capacity, so trying to get all the trains in and out, at the right time must be a veritable jigsaw puzzle.

So wondering how signallers know which platform to send trains? Is there a master plan that dictates that a specific train should use a specific platform (accepting this may change as a result of day to day operations), or a general guidance of where trains from which destination should be sent to a specific platform group?

Thanks

 

[hexagon789]

Hi all,

Here at Banbury we have 4 platforms. XC and through trains use platforms 2 and 3, whereas the GW Oxford/Didcot terminators and the Chiltern Marylebone terminators use platforms 1 or 4. Sometimes the Chiltern services terminate on platform 1, and sometimes on platform 4, and the same applies to the GWR services. Likewise, when I travel to Birmingham Snow Hill, some services terminate on platform 1 and some on platform 2.

In the overall scheme of things, these are small stations, so the situation is many times more complicated with some where like Birmingham New Street. There are often discussions on this forum to say stations like Birmingham New Street are at capacity, so trying to get all the trains in and out, at the right time must be a veritable jigsaw puzzle.

So wondering how signallers know which platform to send trains? Is there a master plan that dictates that a specific train should use a specific platform (accepting this may change as a result of day to day operations), or a general guidance of where trains from which destination should be sent to a specific platform group?

Thanks

The Working Timetable lists booked platforms. Some larger stations may have separate platform working lists I believe. Edinburgh certainly used to - I remember because when looking at WTTs from the 2000s, the GC Section one specifically stated that the platform allocations for Edinburgh were in a separate document.

 

[zwk500]

So wondering how signallers know which platform to send trains? Is there a master plan that dictates that a specific train should use a specific platform (accepting this may change as a result of day to day operations), or a general guidance of where trains from which destination should be sent to a specific platform group?

Thanks

Signallers have access to a system called TRUST that will display the platform number (or a line code such as 'UGL') for each train. In the Working Timetable every train is assigned a platform at every station where more than 1 option exists (with a few exceptions). At Banbury TRUST on it's own may be enough, but at busier stations like New Street there will be what's known as a Simplifier which is a document produced from the master plan to make it visually easier for the signaller to keep track of things.

 

[Tomnick]

The centre panel in Derby PSB, controlling the station with its six platforms, quite famously had a standard six-sided die in a plastic bubble mounted on the panel right up to closure, labelled something like "emergency platform selector".

 

[endofthetunnel]

In essence sending a train to the correct booked platform is no different to the job at any other section of the route.

Signallers (primarily ) send the correct trains the right way and in the right order at junctions, loops, fasts/slows etc and a platform is just another part of that, using the various softwares and systems available, and taking disruption etc into account.

 

[Ex-controller]

As others have mentioned, large stations have permanent platform arrangements, known as ‘dockers’, which signallers work to. These also are pre-programmed into automatic signalling systems where they exist.

If there are delays or last minute changes, and the dockers can’t be adhered to, then usually a shift manager will decide where trains should go, and provide signallers with instructions. At certain stations, a duty manager within the station will decide, usually a TOC employee.

 

[Sunset route]

We use Station workings for Brighton and simplifiers for all other stations including Hove, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges, Horsham, Gatwick Airport, Redhill, Purley, East Croydon, West Croydon and Norwood Junction as our main primary stations backed up by CCF terminals for rack control panel, (CCF is an in house version of Traksy).

 

[Annetts key]

The centre panel in Derby PSB, controlling the station with its six platforms, quite famously had a standard six-sided die in a plastic bubble mounted on the panel right up to closure, labelled something like "emergency platform selector".

Like

Ultimately, at larger stations, it’s the station staff that decide which train uses which platform if trains are running out of sequence / delayed / cancelled / whatever. They advise the signaller.

Unless there are infrastructure problems (signal failure, point failure or similar) in which case the signaller may advise the station staff on which platforms are actually useable. But unless it’s a last minute alteration, it’s still the station staff that decide.

 

[The Puddock]

Ultimately, at larger stations, it’s the station staff that decide which train uses which platform if trains are running out of sequence / delayed / cancelled / whatever.

That’s not true of every large staion. At some of the NR managed stations it’s the SSM in the box who deals with all the platform docking arrangments just as Ex-controller says above. The station staff may make suggestions but it’s the SSM who ultimately decides and is accountable.

 

[pdeaves]

The timetable planners plan the platforms, too. If they didn't, the timetable probably wouldn't work!

 

[Falcon1200]

Ultimately, at larger stations, it’s the station staff that decide which train uses which platform if trains are running out of sequence / delayed / cancelled / whatever. They advise the signaller.

Not at every large station, at Glasgow Central for example such a system would be unworkable! The Signallers there use a graph showing which platforms are occupied by what and for how long and if replatforming becomes necessary, refer to that for the best option.

That’s not true of every large station.

Indeed.

 

[Sunset route]

Like

Ultimately, at larger stations, it’s the station staff that decide which train uses which platform if trains are running out of sequence / delayed / cancelled / whatever. They advise the signaller.

Unless there are infrastructure problems (signal failure, point failure or similar) in which case the signaller may advise the station staff on which platforms are actually useable. But unless it’s a last minute alteration, it’s still the station staff that decide.

We have only one station (Brighton) where the station supervisor will suggest platform replanning and that’s mainly due to stock swaps or reforming services sometimes in association with the neighbouring train depot. As for general platform changes the signaller will make the decision.

As for other termini platforms and through stations it’s all up to the signaller to make the best judgment call.

 

[Triddle]

If I've understood the above correctly, most stations will have a set platform for a set train (assuming no delays or other mishaps). If that's the case, why can't travelers have advance notice in the public timetable of which platform their train will depart/arrive at, as is the case in most (all?) other European countries?

It just feels bizarre when traveling in the UK that I always have to check which platform a train departs from (and don't get me started on the induced scrums at London termini!).

 

[zwk500]

If I've understood the above correctly, most stations will have a set platform for a set train (assuming no delays or other mishaps). If that's the case, why can't travelers have advance notice in the public timetable of which platform their train will depart/arrive at, as is the case in most (all?) other European countries?

It just feels bizarre when traveling in the UK that I always have to check which platform a train departs from (and don't get me started on the induced scrums at London termini!).

It's a long running bone of contention, and one reason why RealTimeTrains (which shows the platform in the plan) is becoming very popular.

The normal answer given is that it's felt better to hold passengers on the concourse to allow the train to be serviced/cleaned or in case of delays, set swaps etc. However this leads to the scrums that you describe. Suppressing makes sense for some trains but not others and it's one of those things where both options have good and bad points in different areas.

 

[robert thomas]

If I've understood the above correctly, most stations will have a set platform for a set train (assuming no delays or other mishaps). If that's the case, why can't travelers have advance notice in the public timetable of which platform their train will depart/arrive at, as is the case in most (all?) other European countries?

It just feels bizarre when traveling in the UK that I always have to check which platform a train departs from (and don't get me started on the induced scrums at London termini!).

In France at large stations the platform is rarely shown until 15-20 minutes before departure

 

[GardenRail]

Hi all,

Here at Banbury we have 4 platforms. XC and through trains use platforms 2 and 3, whereas the GW Oxford/Didcot terminators and the Chiltern Marylebone terminators use platforms 1 or 4. Sometimes the Chiltern services terminate on platform 1, and sometimes on platform 4, and the same applies to the GWR services. Likewise, when I travel to Birmingham Snow Hill, some services terminate on platform 1 and some on platform 2.

In the overall scheme of things, these are small stations, so the situation is many times more complicated with some where like Birmingham New Street. There are often discussions on this forum to say stations like Birmingham New Street are at capacity, so trying to get all the trains in and out, at the right time must be a veritable jigsaw puzzle.

So wondering how signallers know which platform to send trains? Is there a master plan that dictates that a specific train should use a specific platform (accepting this may change as a result of day to day operations), or a general guidance of where trains from which destination should be sent to a specific platform group?

Thanks

At Sheffield, we use Trust. If anything is disrupted we liaise with the Station Manager or Announcer if they are busy.

 

[12LDA28C]

If I've understood the above correctly, most stations will have a set platform for a set train (assuming no delays or other mishaps). If that's the case, why can't travelers have advance notice in the public timetable of which platform their train will depart/arrive at, as is the case in most (all?) other European countries?

It just feels bizarre when traveling in the UK that I always have to check which platform a train departs from (and don't get me started on the induced scrums at London termini!).

At some stations multiple trains may depart a platform within a few minutes of each other and if the trains are already berthed at that platform (for example an origin station where two or three trains depart from ahead of the one behind), that could very easily lead to passengers getting on the wrong train.

 

[Horizon22]

That’s not true of every large staion. At some of the NR managed stations it’s the SSM in the box who deals with all the platform docking arrangments just as Ex-controller says above. The station staff may make suggestions but it’s the SSM who ultimately decides and is accountable.

Yes it’s normally a collaborative agreement. A controller might request a platform for various reasons (ease, unit swaps, passenger connections, to prevent known conflicts for delays) but the signaller has the ultimate authority. A controller with the right knowledge and experience can get a signaller out of a spot of bother! They might know what’s happening with crew and delays on the ground so a signaller can prioritise next departure and route around etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Mar 2023 ==

If I've understood the above correctly, most stations will have a set platform for a set train (assuming no delays or other mishaps). If that's the case, why can't travelers have advance notice in the public timetable of which platform their train will depart/arrive at, as is the case in most (all?) other European countries?

It just feels bizarre when traveling in the UK that I always have to check which platform a train departs from (and don't get me started on the induced scrums at London termini!).

Often they do - if you look at something like Trainline it will show you “estimated” or “predicted” alongside it for many major London terminals or multi-platform stations.

The reason being is a) generally it is better to manage crowds on a concourse than a platform b) if there is a short-notice alteration it is easier to move to a platform before it is boarded, c) more passenger comforts (shops / seating) there and d) don’t have to go through the barrier line which might cause issues to return back through if there’s an alteration.

 

[najaB]

The centre panel in Derby PSB, controlling the station with its six platforms, quite famously had a standard six-sided die in a plastic bubble mounted on the panel right up to closure, labelled something like "emergency platform selector".

Someone had an amazing sense of humour! I hope that made it into a museum or collection somewhere.

 

[ComUtoR]

Press the button for ARS (automatic route setting) and then go to sleep.

The SG button is connected to the alarm clock.

 

[WAO]

Someone had an amazing sense of humour! I hope that made it into a museum or collection somewhere.

No. It was in use at Reading PSB for many years.

You could tell when it was in use as the announcer would intone "awaiting a platform". This conjured up images of chippies hurtling through the back lanes of Berkshire with prefabricated platform parts so it was changed to "awaiting platform allocation".

WAO

 

[zwk500]

No. It was in use at Reading PSB for many years.

You could tell when it was in use as the announcer would intone "awaiting a platform". This conjured up images of chippies hurtling through the back lanes of Berkshire with prefabricated platform parts so it was changed to "awaiting platform allocation".

WAO

This has just given me a wonderful image of a Brunelian gang standing on the footbridge with a Hornby-esque platform kit, waiting to be gruffly dispatched to the appropriate line.

 

[Triddle]

At some stations multiple trains may depart a platform within a few minutes of each other and if the trains are already berthed at that platform (for example an origin station where two or three trains depart from ahead of the one behind), that could very easily lead to passengers getting on the wrong train.

OK, so there are reasons, but those reasons also apply outside the UK (except, it seems, in France - thanks Robert Thomas), and it doesn't lead to the promised chaos. On the contrary, having big yellow posters showing trains leaving from the same platforms each day, and usually trains heading to the same destination leaving from the same platforms whatever the hour make the lives of passengers easier.

I guess it's a case of 'that's how we've always done it', but I find it slightly bizarre that passengers here are led to believe that platform allocation is a dark art verging on the random ...

 

[najaB]

On the contrary, having big yellow posters showing trains leaving from the same platforms each day, and usually trains heading to the same destination leaving from the same platforms whatever the hour make the lives of passengers easier.

And, for the most part, that's how it works in the UK. The same train usually gets the same platform every time. I can only think of one occasion out of dozens where my Glasgow/Edinburgh train didn't leave from Platform 3 at Preston, for example.

However, our practice is to only display platforms on the day because it's seen as less disruptive to have passengers wait on the concourse than to rush from one platform to another in the case of out of course running.

 

[richieb1971]

I think at Bedford they just choose the next platform that is free.

 

[12LDA28C]

And, for the most part, that's how it works in the UK. The same train usually gets the same platform every time. I can only think of one occasion out of dozens where my Glasgow/Edinburgh train didn't leave from Platform 3 at Preston, for example.

However, our practice is to only display platforms on the day because it's seen as less disruptive to have passengers wait on the concourse than to rush from one platform to another in the case of out of course running.

Agree in the most part, however that wouldn't really apply in your given example - where at Preston would passengers 'wait on the concourse'?

 

[30907]

In France at large stations the platform is rarely shown until 15-20 minutes before departure

While from current experience in Italy the platform is shown in advance but is frequently and obviously incorrect

More seriously, most major European stations are worked far less intensively than their UK equivalents - but I agree, showing platform numbers (with a caveat) might be worth trialling.

 

[Horizon22]

While from current experience in Italy the platform is shown in advance but is frequently and obviously incorrect

More seriously, most major European stations are worked far less intensively than their UK equivalents - but I agree, showing platform numbers (with a caveat) might be worth trialling.

A caveat people will just ignore I bet!

 

[davidknibb]

In a related sense - and especially on German DB - there is usually an announcement on approaching a station that translates as 'exit on the left/right'.
Very rarely are we told on British trains which side to alight which results in a certain amount of confusion (and maybe minor delay?) when passengers expect to get out of one side and the train comes in on a different platform from normal and the exit is the other side. Some German trains also have an illuminated arrow pointing to the side to alight.

 

[najaB]

Agree in the most part, however that wouldn't really apply in your given example - where at Preston would passengers 'wait on the concourse'?

Well, as a through station it doesn't have a concourse per-se.