Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 Stadler FLIRTs

[RunRepeat]

Passengers were similarly confused about the door opening delay when the 745/755s were introduced in East Anglia. As the trains became more common people rapidly got used to it.

Same goes for the steps up to some seats.

People generally use public transport in "autopilot" mode so anything different will be disruptive initially but will quickly bed in.

Fully agree with this. I use the 745/755 regularly, at lease when you press the button there's a very audible whirring sound that something is happening as the step extends. And as you say, people are now used to it. I see far less impatient button stabbing these days.

 

[Wyrleybart]

From what i understand, the 231s are replacing the 769s on the Rhymney line, which will then bd replaced by the 756s.

Are the 756s going to be replaced by 398s in due course ?

What happens to the 231s ?

I am guessing the 231s just move valleys ?

 

[Anonymous10]

From what i understand, the 231s are replacing the 769s on the Rhymney line, which will then bd replaced by the 756s.

Are the 756s going to be replaced by 398s in due course ?

What happens to the 231s ?

I am guessing the 231s just move valleys ?

So the plan is 231 to replace 769 due to their reliability issues. Then the 756 will displace then 231s, these will then remain on Rhymney diagrams for likely many years. The 398 tram trains will work Merthyr aberdare and Treherbert and the 231s will move onto the Ebbw Vale Maesteg and Cheltenham Spa diagrams currently worked by 170s.

From May the 170s will start to leave the fleet with 197s filling the gaps along with 150s till the 231s can transfer to release the 197s for the West Wales diagrams which remain as 153s (pembroke dock and some Fishguard)

 

[Jez]

From what i understand, the 231s are replacing the 769s on the Rhymney line, which will then bd replaced by the 756s.

Are the 756s going to be replaced by 398s in due course ?

What happens to the 231s ?

I am guessing the 231s just move valleys ?

The 231s will move to Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Cheltenham Spa services once the 756 arrive to take over Rhymney.to Penarth.

 

[AdamWW]

From what i understand, the 231s are replacing the 769s on the Rhymney line, which will then bd replaced by the 756s.

Are the 756s going to be replaced by 398s in due course ?

What happens to the 231s ?

I am guessing the 231s just move valleys ?

No my understanding is that the 398s are for the routes through Pontypridd, and the 756s are for the line to Rhymney.

The 231s are a temporary measure (given the unreliability of the 769s) until the 756s can take over (which requires the overhead wires to be up as well as having enough 756s).

 

[Techniquest]

I finally got to Cardiff to try the 231s today, and had all of 231005/006/008 in service. Overall, I was quite impressed. I found the seats firm but surprisingly comfortable for such new trains, the easy to reach power socket was welcome, the tables were a good size, they're nice and bright too. Away from the power pod, they're really quiet too, which took some getting used to, especially on the steep climb to Penarth!

I didn't really look much at the PIS, it was off on my first ride from Queen Street to Penarth and I barely noticed it on my second ride, which was just up the bank from Central to Queen Street. 008 was the mileage machine today, with me making a swift move back to Central on it first to source supplies then, following a quick power-walk for some badly needed exercise, I took it up to Rhymney. From there I took the opportunity to admire more of Wales, with buses to Merthyr, then to Brecon, to Abergavenny and finally to Hereford.

My biggest frustration, the only others I found being the ultra slow UAT door and the frustrating tap, was the delay in doors being released. Then as others have mentioned it's then waiting for the step to extend, which is annoying but then we're not overly used to such magic over this side of the country!

Talking of, I did love there being no big step up into/out of the train and no major concerns over the gap. That was really nice.

Oh, and I must mention the awesome amount of noise the power pod makes. Phwoar that's good fun

Overall, they're great trains. They're not perfect, but they're such an enormous step up from the likes of 150s that I really like the 231s. Now I've done both Penarth and Rhymney on the class, I'll be focusing more on getting them on shorter leaps.

Photos attached are 150270 on the 1121 to Barry Island (from Queen Street), 769445 on the 1120 from Queen Street to Rhymney, 231006 arriving at Queen Street, an interior shot in one of the end coaches, then later on 231008 at Queen Street and at Rhymney.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Oh yes, I see what you mean now. Indeed, that introduces another chunk of delay before the guard even starts to go through the "does the platform still exist?" rigmarole.

This method of working is uncommon in Europe, to the best of my knowledge, and I think also in much of the wider world - it's more common elsewhere for either the driver to give the release, or for the guard to do so from a cab.

I suppose that a work-around would be to configure any door being opened from the local panel to open at the same time as the gap filler extends, but that would rely on the guard being trusted with not come to any harm in the process.


In the nicest possible way, I'm not sure that there's much more that can be done for people who interpret the button flashing green and being accompanied by normal "door opening" beeping as an error message - as opposed to, say, the button flashing red instead. If nothing else, they'll get used to it in the same way that people have already gotten used to waiting for the release, but I still feel that the waiting for release is the more egregious delay as there's genuinely zero explanation available as to what's going on.

+

I am not sure on the full capabilities of the guard panel on the 231s but from my normal observations, guards key in just before the train comes to a stop and then when the train stops, they press the local door open button. Could it be done so that when the guard 'keys in' the train waits until it stops and then automatically does the step. It's clear that that set of doors is going to be used as the guard has keyed in and so it wouldn't be an unnecessary cycle but it would reduce the delay by maybe a few seconds (that few seconds currently being the train stopping and the guard pressing the local door open button). Is this just a lot of effort though for a few seconds?

I think a bit of time at each station will add up. Nice idea if easy to implement.

Probably not worth the effort given the plan is that eventually drivers will be releasing the doors.

Oh well, then reality arrives !.

Passengers were similarly confused about the door opening delay when the 745/755s were introduced in East Anglia. As the trains became more common people rapidly got used to it.

Same goes for the steps up to some seats.

People generally use public transport in "autopilot" mode so anything different will be disruptive initially but will quickly bed in.

Yes. I am on autopilot on buses. I was never sure what the loud beeping noise when the centre doors are open means - except to disturb everyone even on the upper deck. I assumed it was a warning the doors were closing BUT I was often exiting past the horrible noise. So I learnt to ignore it.

Only today my better half was leading out of the chemist. She pulled the door towards her (to about 25 degrees) and there was the loud beep (the one that alerts the staff that someone is entering and puts off thiefs). She immediately started pushing the door handle so as to push the door open instead. Door would not push open !. Pause, then went back to plan A (which matched the "pull" sign on the handle). Result was a load of faff caused by confusing noises when her first action was entirely correct.

People do need to know that something is happening when they push the button otherwise they will dash down the carriage to another door !. But we are in danger of over-information bombardment syndrome (shall I call it). So a bit of a whirr might help. I find a flashing light (whatever the colour) or beep tends to be interpreted as something is wrong.

Lets face it though - nothing more major to worry about as regards these wonderful Stadler trains.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Could it be done so that when the guard 'keys in' the train waits until it stops and then automatically does the step.

Is the step actually out-of-gauge while extended? Presumably it would be foul with dynamic gauging at 100mph, otherwise it would just be fixed in the extended position, but would it be ok to have it extend automatically whenever the train is under 5mph (inspired by some automobiles which automatically lock the doors above a certain speed)?

From what i understand, the 231s are replacing the 769s on the Rhymney line, which will then bd replaced by the 756s.

That's my understanding also.

Are the 756s going to be replaced by 398s in due course?

Not as far as I know, but personally I think it would make sense if the 756s on the Coryton services (but not the Rhymney line) were swapped with the 398s planned for the Aberdare* line.

* Merthyr and Treherbert too, but Aberdare is the most likely of the 3 to be extended and therefore most in need of toilets.

 

[43096]

Is the step actually out-of-gauge while extended?

Yes.

Presumably it would be foul with dynamic gauging at 100mph, otherwise it would just be fixed in the extended position, but would it be ok to have it extend automatically whenever the train is under 5mph (inspired by some automobiles which automatically lock the doors above a certain speed)?

The step comes out to meet the platform edge. The train has to be stationary when deployed.

 

[50031]

231s have been tested as far as my home town, Pontypridd. I saw an article that TfW will clear the core Valleys for 231s. Seems bizarre to me that Pontypridd gets trams, but Caerphilly gets Flirts with toilets. Will Pontypridd passengers feel they have the inferior trains ? There has occasionally been mention of Pontypridd having direct services on the mainline in the future (Portsmouth or Bristol) It has its newish bay platform 1 that is not used very often.

 

[Bob Price]

231s have been tested as far as my home town, Pontypridd. I saw an article that TfW will clear the core Valleys for 231s. Seems bizarre to me that Pontypridd gets trams, but Caerphilly gets Flirts with toilets. Will Pontypridd passengers feel they have the inferior trains ? There has occasionally been mention of Pontypridd having direct services on the mainline in the future (Portsmouth or Bristol) It has its newish bay platform 1 that is not used very often.

If TfW had been given control of Penarth and the Vale of Glamorgan lines they would probably have been 398's as well. The whole idea is these lines have more potential to expand, eg: Hirwaun, Creigiau, etc which will be easier with trams. Plus they allow on street running which is needed to expand further across the network such as Splott, Tremorfa etc. The Pontypridd lines are now effectively a Metro system like the one in Manchester with high density running and potentially for expansion. The chances of FLIRTS or any other trains running on them is not zero, but it's low.

 

[Caaardiff]

If TfW had been given control of Penarth and the Vale of Glamorgan lines they would probably have been 398's as well. The whole idea is these lines have more potential to expand, eg: Hirwaun, Creigiau, etc which will be easier with trams. Plus they allow on street running which is needed to expand further across the network such as Splott, Tremorfa etc. The Pontypridd lines are now effectively a Metro system like the one in Manchester with high density running and potentially for expansion. The chances of FLIRTS or any other trains running on them is not zero, but it's low.

As well as that wasn't there issues with electrifying the whole Rhymney line? Which is why the bi-mode Flirts were deemed a better fit along with commonality of the 231s?

 

[AdamWW]

As well as that wasn't there issues with electrifying the whole Rhymney line? Which is why the bi-mode Flirts were deemed a better fit along with commonality of the 231s?

The 756s are tri-mode. Perhaps they don't want bi-modes getting stuck in Caerphilly tunnel and running out of battery?

Not as far as I know, but personally I think it would make sense if the 756s on the Coryton services (but not the Rhymney line) were swapped with the 398s planned for the Aberdare* line.

For the Coryton line I expect it would depend on what the service pattern is expected to be. Maybe they will run south of Cardiff like the Rhymneys.

Is the step actually out-of-gauge while extended? Presumably it would be foul with dynamic gauging at 100mph, otherwise it would just be fixed in the extended position, but would it be ok to have it extend automatically whenever the train is under 5mph (inspired by some automobiles which automatically lock the doors above a certain speed)?

I could be wrong but it looks to me as if they don't always extend the same distance, depending on the size of the gap.

(I think the idea of automatically locking doors above a certain speed is also quite comon on railways).

 

[supervc-10]

I think someone said that they come out, touch the platform edge, then pull back by a cm or two? If the step doesn't hit something, it just goes all the way. Might have been on one of the other threads about the Greater Anglia Flirts or maybe the Merseyrail 777s.

 

[ajay1071]

Had my first ride on the 231's earlier this week, 001,004,008,010 first impressions was they seem to be a good unit, plenty of leg room and seats were fine for me anyway. I was certainly impressed with the acceleration abilities especially compared with the 150's and not to mention the 769's, I was talking with the guard and he said other units struggle to reach 50/55 mph between Lisvane and through Caerphilly tunnel but the drivers of the 231's need to throttle back some what at the same stretch of line.

 

[louis97]

For the Coryton line I expect it would depend on what the service pattern is expected to be. Maybe they will run south of Cardiff like the Rhymneys.

Coryton services will also be 756s, the 3 cars, and will run to Penarth. Combined with 2tph Caerphilly to Penarth service, also 3 cars, this will give Penarth branch a train every 15 minutes. Rhymney services (every 15 minutes) will run towards Barry, I think its 2tph to Barry Island and 2tph to Bridgend.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Whats this then, another 756 ?.

Realtime Trains | 5Q99 0240 Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings | 28/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q99 0240 departure from Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings on 28/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Coryton services will also be 756s, the 3 cars, and will run to Penarth. Combined with 2tph Caerphilly to Penarth service, also 3 cars, this will give Penarth branch a train every 15 minutes. Rhymney services (every 15 minutes) will run towards Barry, I think its 2tph to Barry Island and 2tph to Bridgend.

Downgrade for Barry Island in terms of frequency if we’re going to be really pernickety.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Whats this then, another 756 ?.

Realtime Trains | 5Q99 0240 Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings | 28/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q99 0240 departure from Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings on 28/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

002 004 and 005 all reported.

 

[Class319&373]

002 004 and 005 all reported.

Realtime Trains | 6L22 1659 Dollands Moor Sdgs to Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs | 27/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 6L22 1659 departure from Dollands Moor Sdgs to Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs on 27/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I'm guessing they'll be attached to this 92 freight drag up HS1 today.

 

[800001]

Whats this then, another 756 ?.

Realtime Trains | 5Q99 0240 Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings | 28/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q99 0240 departure from Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings on 28/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

756002 and 756004 are both at Dollands Moor.

 

[meld3]

Any news on 231009 or 011 entering service, or have I missed them ?

 

[Buzz68]

Any news on 231009 or 011 entering service, or have I missed them ?

009 is the only 231 not to have visited the Rhymney line, in fact I don't have a record of it visiting the Pontypridd line either. I would be fairly confident 011 should be the next in service. 009 only seems permanently based in Barry and only visits Canton for fuel.

 

[Peter Sarf]

002 004 and 005 all reported.

They are coming thick and fast !. Now where are the wires !.

 

[oglord]

They are coming thick and fast !. Now where are the wires !.

There are four lovely tracks of wires between Cardiff Central and Severn Tunnel Junction that TfW intend not to use!

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Misread the above like a muppet so edited.

I personally think they'll end up fitting pantographs, but that's speculation on my part

 

[D7672]

756002,756004,756005 due in the morning at Newport around 8am Tuesday 28th March

 

[Peter Sarf]

Misread the above like a muppet so edited.

I personally think they'll end up fitting pantographs, but that's speculation on my part

I think the 756s already have a pantograph.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

I think the 756s already have a pantograph.

They do, but they won't be operating between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff...

 

[Peter Sarf]

They do, but they won't be operating between Severn Tunnel Junction and Cardiff...

I know. The 756s are destined for certain of the Valleys.