Worst Tube Line?

[bramling]

Obviously the stock is appalling, but for me the real issue is the frequency. The amount of times evenly spread throughout 2019-2022 - so COVID world or non COVID world - I've had to change from southbound Victoria to southbound Bakerloo at Oxford Circus to be greeted with something like 4-6 minutes on the board. With no other line do I seem to get that, other than Circle for which you can use all other subsurface lines to get to pretty much any destination, by changing at Aldgate East or Earl's Court.

The problem with the Bakerloo is it attempts to combine a comparatively low-frequency “timetable” service north of Queen’s Park with a “metro” service south of there.

For whatever reasons, this just doesn’t work wonderfully well. I’m not entirely sure why, as it’s not like the Euston-Watford service isn’t largely segregated from the rest of the rail network in the area, so really there shouldn’t be that much scope for disruption. It seems to be a case that the left hand simply doesn’t talk to the right hand, and a couple of minutes delay to a Bakerloo train at the Harrow end is then enough to cause a gap through the central area.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The problem with the Bakerloo is it attempts to combine a comparatively low-frequency “timetable” service north of Queen’s Park with a “metro” service south of there.

For whatever reasons, this just doesn’t work wonderfully well. I’m not entirely sure why, as it’s not like the Euston-Watford service isn’t largely segregated from the rest of the rail network in the area, so really there shouldn’t be that much scope for disruption. It seems to be a case that the left hand simply doesn’t talk to the right hand, and a couple of minutes delay to a Bakerloo train at the Harrow end is then enough to cause a gap through the central area.

Yes, and it seems to be an uncomfortable squash together of a 3tph Overground and 4tph Bakerloo Harrow service north of Stonebridge Park, obviously not working together as a clockface service so no doubt getting in the way of each other if the slightest delays occur.

 

[bramling]

Yes, and it seems to be an uncomfortable squash together of a 3tph Overground and 4tph Bakerloo Harrow service north of Stonebridge Park, obviously not working together as a clockface service so no doubt getting in the way of each other if the slightest delays occur.

The DC service has been 4tph to Watford for a little while now, however it still doesn’t seem to work too well, though it’s a bit better than it was.

I suspect one problem is the signalling is rather thin north of Queen’s Park, but especially north of Stonebridge Park. For example an up train has to have left Kenton before the starting signal at Harrow will clear. There’s then the odd situation where a train will be on a single yellow aspect for the entire run to the next station. Again, none of this is optimal, and seems to be another legacy left to us from times when capacity wasn’t felt necessary.

 

[MP33]

Some years ago after a number of incidents of people being trapped underground I would have nominated the Central line. Around that time I was returning from Ealing Broadway and being refreshed I feel asleep in my seat. I awoke and checked my watch and it appeared that I had slept through the train being stationary for at least 45 minutes.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The DC service has been 4tph to Watford for a little while now, however it still doesn’t seem to work too well, though it’s a bit better than it was.

I suspect one problem is the signalling is rather thin north of Queen’s Park, but especially north of Stonebridge Park. For example an up train has to have left Kenton before the starting signal at Harrow will clear. There’s then the odd situation where a train will be on a single yellow aspect for the entire run to the next station. Again, none of this is optimal, and seems to be another legacy left to us from times when capacity wasn’t felt necessary.

There used to be a running joke that a green on the DC north of Stonebridge was treated as a signal irregularity by DC drivers - frankly too many trains for a largely 2 aspect signalling......(a while back mind...)

 

[bramling]

There used to be a running joke that a green on the DC north of Stonebridge was treated as a signal irregularity by DC drivers - frankly too many trains for a largely 2 aspect signalling......(a while back mind...)

I guess the thing is that the signalling is absolutely fine on paper, in that it more than meets the requirements of a (what was the case from the 90s until fairly recently) I think a 9tph service north of Stonebridge. IIRC it’s three aspect from Stonebridge to Harrow, but with some very long sections. I think from Wembley Central to Harrow pretty much the only signals are the station starters, again from memory I think there’s one intermediate signal approaching Harrow down, but that’s about it. It would actually work better with 2-aspect as there would be less chance of running forever on single yellows. As things are, for an up train to see a Green aspect at Harrow, the preceding train must have departed *South Kenton* - hardly a great design for a low-speed line.

The problem is that it isn’t a typical 9tph service you’d find elsewhere, due to the way LU works. So what happens in practice is two trains present themselves side-by-side at Harrow or Queen’s Park, and one of them is then guaranteed to be set back by 5 minutes or so (I’m guessing that’s roughly the practical headway given the running times), which in LU terms is quite significant. Add in some effect from seeing yellows, and an original late running of a few minutes is now 10+, and bear in mind the recovery options on the LU section are quite limited too.

Possibly another mistake was reducing the number of reversing sidings at Harrow down to one, which was presumably done at the same time as the resignalling.

On the subject of sidings, the need to physically detrain at Queen’s Park, which has been the case since the Liverpool Street incident, can’t have helped the service stability, especially during disruption. Even with staff assisting it still takes time, especially nowadays when it seems half the population don’t listen to announcements.

 

[matthewjohnson]

What do you mean by 'noise'? Do you mean noise from announcements or when the train is moving, the noise from reverberation of track? You should try the Battersea Extension, that one is really loud!

Talking of loud, I'm a regular visitor to Lords cricket ground and there is a particular section of the Jubilee between Baker Street and St John's Wood that is ear splittingly bad. I've started getting off at Baker Street and walking to Lord's from there just to avoid it

 

[Jonny]

Talking of loud, I'm a regular visitor to Lords cricket ground and there is a particular section of the Jubilee between Baker Street and St John's Wood that is ear splittingly bad. I've started getting off at Baker Street and walking to Lord's from there just to avoid it

That bit does get pretty loud - from Baker Street northwards is essentially all ex-Bakerloo track. That is why the Northbound-Northbound and Southbound-Southbound level platform access arrangements are the way they are at Baker Street.

I guess the thing is that the signalling is absolutely fine on paper, in that it more than meets the requirements of a (what was the case from the 90s until fairly recently) I think a 9tph service north of Stonebridge. IIRC it’s three aspect from Stonebridge to Harrow, but with some very long sections. I think from Wembley Central to Harrow pretty much the only signals are the station starters, again from memory I think there’s one intermediate signal approaching Harrow down, but that’s about it. It would actually work better with 2-aspect as there would be less chance of running forever on single yellows. As things are, for an up train to see a Green aspect at Harrow, the preceding train must have departed *South Kenton* - hardly a great design for a low-speed line.

So, part of the solution on that part of the Bakerloo would be re-signalling?

The problem is that it isn’t a typical 9tph service you’d find elsewhere, due to the way LU works. So what happens in practice is two trains present themselves side-by-side at Harrow or Queen’s Park, and one of them is then guaranteed to be set back by 5 minutes or so (I’m guessing that’s roughly the practical headway given the running times), which in LU terms is quite significant. Add in some effect from seeing yellows, and an original late running of a few minutes is now 10+, and bear in mind the recovery options on the LU section are quite limited too.

Possibly another mistake was reducing the number of reversing sidings at Harrow down to one, which was presumably done at the same time as the resignalling.

On the subject of sidings, the need to physically detrain at Queen’s Park, which has been the case since the Liverpool Street incident, can’t have helped the service stability, especially during disruption. Even with staff assisting it still takes time, especially nowadays when it seems half the population don’t listen to announcements.

So, what happened in the "Liverpool Street incident"? I guess that LU would detrain anyway to go into the sidings but is this for Kilburn High Road turnbacks?

 

[bramling]

So, part of the solution on that part of the Bakerloo would be re-signalling?

Yes it would help, though of course it would cost £££, and the signalling on that section isn’t that old. There would probably still be an issue with the division of control between LU and NR though.

So, what happened in the "Liverpool Street incident"? I guess that LU would detrain anyway to go into the sidings but is this for Kilburn High Road turnbacks?

A Central Line train terminated at Liverpool Street, where at the time there was no requirement for anyone to check the train and close the doors car by car. Someone was overcarried, and ended up falling onto the track after using inter-connecting doors, with fatal consequences. Following that incident it was necessary to do a full detrainment any time a train terminated on LU. The Bakerloo was hard hit due to most northbound journeys terminating in a siding.

Queen’s Park is one of the most problematic locations for detraining, simply due to the number of trains terminating and the frequency of the service.

 

[Taunton]

I guess the thing is that the signalling is absolutely fine on paper, in that it more than meets the requirements of a (what was the case from the 90s until fairly recently) I think a 9tph service north of Stonebridge. IIRC it’s three aspect from Stonebridge to Harrow, but with some very long sections. I think from Wembley Central to Harrow pretty much the only signals are the station starters, again from memory I think there’s one intermediate signal approaching Harrow down, but that’s about it.

How is that an issue? If the only signals are station starters, and all trains call at all stations, surely any proceed aspect gives you full speed to your next stop.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Possibly another mistake was reducing the number of reversing sidings at Harrow down to one, which was presumably done at the same time as the resignalling.

The Harrow turnback was indeed reduced to one siding , but there is a start back facility possible off the down DC , by means of a trailing crossover at the south end of the station. Quite handy - especially when the B/loo sent 2 following trains to Harrow & Wealdstone , - which happened from time to time ! (still caused delays as you can imagine)

Allows a shuttle to operate Watford to Harrow in times of engineering work or disruption. (DC trains of course)

 

[Lewlew]

How is that an issue? If the only signals are station starters, and all trains call at all stations, surely any proceed aspect gives you full speed to your next stop.

Network Rail defensive driving means that Overground trains will depart on a yellow, crawl at 30mph instead of 45mph all the way and creep into the platform. Bakerloos are used to seeing reds so will go full speed.

 

[Taunton]

Network Rail defensive driving means that Overground trains will depart on a yellow, crawl at 30mph instead of 45mph all the way and creep into the platform. Bakerloos are used to seeing reds so will go full speed.

What a silly application of a "one size fits all" rule.

 

[trebor79]

How is that an issue? If the only signals are station starters, and all trains call at all stations, surely any proceed aspect gives you full speed to your next stop.

Well, for example if it takes 5 minutes to make the journey between the stations, then you can have a service more frequent than 1 train every 5 minutes.

 

[Jonny]

How is that an issue? If the only signals are station starters, and all trains call at all stations, surely any proceed aspect gives you full speed to your next stop.

Well, for example if it takes 5 minutes to make the journey between the stations, then you can have a service more frequent than 1 train every 5 minutes.

Therefore, you need to have enough signals that the next service can get underway, with greens wherever safely possible. That means more signals, no two ways about it.

 

[rebmcr]

In the past, red aspects on the DC Lines allowed drivers the choice to treat them as 'permissive working, proceed at caution' with no signaller interaction (routinely enabling 2+ trains in sections).

Was that still the case during the current signalling's design, and/or under current rules?

 

[Lewlew]

In the past, red aspects on the DC Lines allowed drivers the choice to treat them as 'permissive working, proceed at caution' with no signaller interaction (routinely enabling 2+ trains in sections).

Was that still the case during the current signalling's design, and/or under current rules?

Definetly not the case now. These days, you stop at a red, press the call signaller button on the radio and wait for them to never get back to you, call the Bakerloo controller to call the signaller on the landline to nudge them.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

In the past, red aspects on the DC Lines allowed drivers the choice to treat them as 'permissive working, proceed at caution' with no signaller interaction (routinely enabling 2+ trains in sections).

Was that still the case during the current signalling's design, and/or under current rules?

The old 1930's signalling was very bespoke , and did allow a degree of permissive working under carefully defined circumstances (but not everywhere where there was an open signal box) - the replacement signalling follows the general principles of colour / multiple aspect signaling as to which signals can be passed at danger and when.

 

[Taunton]

The old 1930's signalling was very bespoke , and did allow a degree of permissive working under carefully defined circumstances (but not everywhere where there was an open signal box) - the replacement signalling follows the general principles of colour / multiple aspect signaling as to which signals can be passed at danger and when.

The 1930s installation was an adaptation of US signalling, I believe supplied from there like the Mirfield installation, but from their rapid transit signals rather than mainline. Notably in the US some mainstream rapid transit lines, like Chicago, relied on line of sight rather than signals, except at junctions, as late as the 1970s. The Watford DC Line installation (it was not on the North London) allowed signal failures to be handled, but could cause, in other disruptions, a whole string of trains to get lined up one behind the other, as there was no differentiation at a red between a signal failure and a train stuck ahead. Typically on that line trains ahead would be visible anyway, but like just about every line-of-sight installation in degraded conditions, even including the DLR in recent times, it seemed to lead to inexplicable collisions.

Was the DC line resignalling designed/done when the Bakerloo had given up regular services to Harrow, in the 1980s, and only Euston trains, and frequencies, were operating?

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Victoria line for me, as it's completely overcrowded. That said, even then, there are certain things I like about the Victoria Line. Such as the amazing acceleration of the 2009 stock and how frequent and reliable the line really is.

 

[HarryF]

circle/Hammersmith and City for me. I use it to transfer between Kings Cross and Paddington when I visit my cousin, and despite leaving minimum 1 hour between arriving at one terminal and departing from another, 4/6 times I have done the journey have resulted in me running up the platform at Paddington or Kings Cross with dispatchers blowing whistles and telling me to hurry up. Out of interest is an hour less than the minimum connection time?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The 1930s installation was an adaptation of US signalling, I believe supplied from there like the Mirfield installation, but from their rapid transit signals rather than mainline. Notably in the US some mainstream rapid transit lines, like Chicago, relied on line of sight rather than signals, except at junctions, as late as the 1970s. The Watford DC Line installation (it was not on the North London) allowed signal failures to be handled, but could cause, in other disruptions, a whole string of trains to get lined up one behind the other, as there was no differentiation at a red between a signal failure and a train stuck ahead. Typically on that line trains ahead would be visible anyway, but like just about every line-of-sight installation in degraded conditions, even including the DLR in recent times, it seemed to lead to inexplicable collisions.

Was the DC line resignalling designed/done when the Bakerloo had given up regular services to Harrow, in the 1980s, and only Euston trains, and frequencies, were operating?

By the 1980's - the DC was past it's glory days (had been 14 tph in the early 1950's - it was then 3 tph) - and the Bakerloo was hardly operating north of Stonebridge Park - dropping to a minimum 4 trains a day to Harrow and Wealdstone.

 

[rebmcr]

circle/Hammersmith and City for me. I use it to transfer between Kings Cross and Paddington when I visit my cousin, and despite leaving minimum 1 hour between arriving at one terminal and departing from another, 4/6 times I have done the journey have resulted in me running up the platform at Paddington or Kings Cross with dispatchers blowing whistles and telling me to hurry up. Out of interest is an hour less than the minimum connection time?

Metropolitan line to Farringdon, then Elizabeth line to Paddington is now a much better option.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Metropolitan line to Farringdon, then Elizabeth line to Paddington is now a much better option.

Agreed - the Liz line is fast and a much better interchange to Paddington Main line rather than a forced march off the H&C - absolute game changer in all respects.

 

[stuu]

circle/Hammersmith and City for me. I use it to transfer between Kings Cross and Paddington when I visit my cousin, and despite leaving minimum 1 hour between arriving at one terminal and departing from another, 4/6 times I have done the journey have resulted in me running up the platform at Paddington or Kings Cross with dispatchers blowing whistles and telling me to hurry up. Out of interest is an hour less than the minimum connection time?

Never use the Circle Line for that journey. Victoria and Bakerloo every time

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Never use the Circle Line for that journey. Victoria and Bakerloo every time

Never use the Circle Line for that journey. Victoria and Bakerloo every time

Often done in the past - warm as well in the cold weather which escaped the cold , inevitable dwell at Edgware Road !

 

[Sunil_P]

Central line is worst!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Central line for me though I am not keen on the Metropolitan

 

[Class15]

Central line for me though I am not keen on the Metropolitan

I personally like the Met, but only once you get past Baker Street and skip all those stations.

Completely agree with all the comments about the signal spacing on the northern Bakerloo line, where it shares with the DC. For instance, I think there are only 3 signals on the Up line between Wembley Central and Willesden Junction, which is nearly as many as the mainline next door!

 

[Lewlew]

For instance, I think there are only 3 signals on the Up line between Wembley Central and Willesden Junction, which is nearly as many as the mainline next door!

Including the station starter at Wembley, there’s 5 signals.

They’re lacking in signals going the other way from Wembley, with only one at each platform and none in between except on the approach to Harrow.