Why is there so little freight on Sundays?

[The Planner]

I don't think that's entirely fair to say. Sometimes they will push a decision to arbitration and get access that one or more operators objected to.

You mean ADRC? Thats whats its there for. The panel is made up of NR and operators. It goes both ways and NR normally back off first.

 

[geoffk]

Other countries seem to manage to run freight on Sundays. I've seen some lines quite busy with Sunday freight. When do they do their engineering works?

Don't they use more single line working? Obviously that's no use if, say, a bridge has to be replaced.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think that's entirely fair to say. Sometimes they will push a decision to arbitration and get access that one or more operators objected to.

Yes, fair enough, although that is very rare. For example, I’ve never had to go to ADRC (Access Disputes Resolution Committee).

 

[D6975]

A whole 9-10 hours before the blocks come on?

Yes, many long distance freights take more than 9 hours to complete their journey. And don't forget that often the loco then needs to run to a stabling point afterwards too.

 

[Class 170101]

NR only ever do work in agreement with the operators.

I don't think that's entirely fair to say. Sometimes they will push a decision to arbitration and get access that one or more operators objected to.

Or get a sob story out saying how bad the infrastructure is if they don't do it and I've seen one recently and I think its disgraceful.

 

[Bald Rick]

Or get a sob story out saying how bad the infrastructure is if they don't do it and I've seen one recently and I think it’s disgraceful.

Well, if you get everything right 100% of the time, fair play to you.

But if I were to set up a ledger of boll***ings I’ve had for something breaking because I hadn’t got it fixed in time vs boll***ings I’ve had for fixing something too early, the former would be winning by about 10/1.

 

[GB]

I wonder why there is basically no freight on Sundays? It would seem that Sunday would be a perfect day with no peak hour…

Sunday is a not a good day for freight. As already been mentioned, generally terminals do no open on a Sunday and while shipping might be open at ports that doesn't mean the rail head is. There is also less traincrew available on a Sunday and those that are available are usually used on engineering sites. Then there is the engineering work...freight routes cover many miles and areas and its not often the routes are open in their entirety.

 

[The Planner]

Or get a sob story out saying how bad the infrastructure is if they don't do it and I've seen one recently and I think its disgraceful.

Still could have disputed it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Mar 2023 ==

Yes, many long distance freights take more than 9 hours to complete their journey. And don't forget that often the loco then needs to run to a stabling point afterwards too.

But it still goes back to how many of the actual end terminals are open.

 

[greyman42]

Large ports such as Felixstowe shut from Saturday afternoon until Monday morning.

I'm surprised at that! I assumed a port such as Felixstowe would be 24/7.

 

[Dr Hoo]

There is often a distinction between ‘sea side’ to/from container park shuttles and container park to/from rail terminal shuttles.

Containers are not loaded directly between ship and lorry/train.

Various essential ancillary functions like customs and security examinations have to be undertaken and these are not necessarily 24/7.

 

[Starmill]

So then freight could run on Sunday evenings?

Surely when the railway can offer freight paths isn't particularly relevant here? What matters first and foremost is when the end customer wants to take delivery. If you get that wrong then you don't get paid, and if you don't get paid there's simply no freight train; the goods will be going another way, or with another company. The task of the FOC is to fit their operations around the time their customer wants the goods. Not the other way around... The delivery time being close to when the customer wants it, and it being punctual, is almost as important as it with passengers. The preferred times of course are often slightly different.

A small number of services do run Saturdays and Sundays, if that's what the customer wants, because it fits their needs to accept deliveries on Sunday night for unloading and stocking in time for opening on Monday morning e.g. the large supermarket chain. That won't work for everyone.

 

[dk1]

I'm surprised at that! I assumed a port such as Felixstowe would be 24/7.

Only small parts are. I assume that's when they do maintenance etc. Even with disruption I've never known the dockers there to work Sundays or for freightliners to operate between late afternoon Saturday & Monday morning.

 

[GB]

Only small parts are. I assume that's when they do maintenance etc. Even with disruption I've never known the dockers there to work Sundays or for freightliners to operate between late afternoon Saturday & Monday morning.

Last one into the North is about 1800 and is not worked on until Monday. Last one into the South is about 2130 (no port staff, just FOC staff) and not worked until Monday. Shipping is 24/7.

 

[dk1]

Last one into the North is about 1800 and is not worked on until Monday. Last one into the South is about 2130 (no port staff, just FOC staff) and not worked until Monday. Shipping is 24/7.

Cheers!!

 

[158756]

But it still goes back to how many of the actual end terminals are open.

Is this not rather a circular argument for intermodal terminals though? Do the trains run when the terminals are open or do the terminals open when there are trains? It's probably true that many of the end customers do not open on Sundays, but I'm sure there are plenty who would like their containers to be available on Monday morning.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I’ll tell you then. The work should be done when it affects the least traffic. On almost all lines, that’s Saturday night through to Sunday afternoon.

That's a circular argument though. Passengers avoid rail travel on Sundays because there are fewer trains and more likelihood of replacement buses.

Although major rail blockades are often timed for Christmas and Easter, the Highways Agency suspend as many road works as they can over the same periods because the roads are at their busiest.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I don't think one aspect has been specifically mentioned although hinted at.

In the days (now long ago) when I was directly involved, many private freight terminals - particularly stone depots - had restrictions on their times of operation, laid down by the local authority. This was presumably because of considerations about noise and associated road traffic, and I don't think such restrictions will have been eased with the passage of time.

I would suggest, from hazy memory, that these restrictions would be likely to include a complete ban on weekend working.

As an aside, the M-F window was often quite limited and, if such restrictions applied at each end of the transit, and the latter was of more than about 6 hours, trains could only run in a very limited time band. It is perhaps not always seen by railway passengers that their requirement to arrive at destination reasonably near to a particular time may also apply to freight traffic.

 

[43066]

That's a circular argument though. Passengers avoid rail travel on Sundays because there are fewer trains and more likelihood of replacement buses.

Also because many other businesses are closed or have restricted opening hours on Sundays due to Sunday trading laws. Sunday mornings are pretty dead (relatively speaking) on the railway, even when when a full service is running.

The engineering work has to be done at some point, so when else should it be done if not Sundays?

 

[ExRes]

It's 20 years since I was with EWS so things may be different now, the situation we had then was that virtually every weekend finding enough drivers was the major problem, the majority were coming off late Friday or early Saturday finishes or due late Sunday or early Monday starts, some drivers even had the audacity to spend their time off with their families rather than spend it working for a thankless and **** taking employer, it's very much about quarts and pint pots, up the weekend working and you'll likely have to reduce it on the weekdays, and that's just from the driver angle, add all the other grades and loco availability to that

 

[Starmill]

Is this not rather a circular argument for intermodal terminals though? Do the trains run when the terminals are open or do the terminals open when there are trains? It's probably true that many of the end customers do not open on Sundays, but I'm sure there are plenty who would like their containers to be available on Monday morning.

There are customers who want that and they do receive deliveries of containers on Sundays. So I'm not totally sure what the point is here.

 

[Killingworth]

I note there are many freight paths booked along the Hope Valley on Saturdays and possibly as many run as Monday-Friday, but finishing last Saturday by 22.00

Of those booked last Sunday only 6 ran, all in the afternoon. That will partially be due to Saturday night engineering work and also manning of signal boxes.

Clearly there are many factors resulting in lighter freight use of the railway at weekends but in the Peak District stone removal doesn't seem to be greatly impacted.

 

[greyman42]

Passengers avoid rail travel on Sundays because there are fewer trains and more likelihood of replacement buses.

Not on the ECML they don't.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's a circular argument though. Passengers avoid rail travel on Sundays because there are fewer trains and more likelihood of replacement buses.

Im afraid this is not the case. If you have ever driven on the strategic road network on a Saturday evening / Sunday morning, you will find it very quiet. And that’s not because there’s engineering work on the motorways. The fact of the matter is that people are much less likely to travel Saturday eve / Sunday morning.

Long distance travel starts to pick up early afternoon Sunday.

 

[greyman42]

Long distance travel starts to pick up early afternoon Sunday.

I would say that it picks up from 0900.

 

[ZL exile]

Are we forgetting a key point here? Freight on rail supports business / industry in its logistics needs. How many users on here work 24/7 365? If the producers ‘ users of the goods being delivered are working then the need to move those items are reduced, hence why the number of lorries on the roads drops off pm Saturday and ramps up again late on Sunday.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Long distance travel starts to pick up early afternoon Sunday.

I would say that it picks up from 0900.

In a sense both of these points are true. Back in the 1970s and 1980s many long distance routes had no useful service on Sundays before approx 1600 and while the reason for this is something of a chicken/egg situation it had been going on for a long time. It also gave a very useful daytime window for infrastructure maintenance work. The changes to Sunday trading laws started to change societal attitudes to all sorts of activities which inevitably led to increased demand for all-day services on Sundays.

One issue that needs to be resolved arises from this country's insistence on sweating railway assets to the max meaning there is very little spare capacity on the rail network as a whole. As such NR has little choice about when it schedules disruptive works but it may be that the least disruptive time may shift away from Sundays on a national basis to varying according to local circumstances. For instance in some areas it might make more sense to schedule work in the middle of weekdays or Saturday mornings. But whatever happens people have to understand that occasional maintenance related disruption to train services is inevitable.