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You’ve probably heard this all before but i’m a little worried about this situation.
Here are the facts:
I travel regularly from Bicester North to Marylebone. 3 times PW typically. To note I have a valid railcard I use to.
One time, two weeks ago, I forgot to buy my ticket from Bicester (no barriers and was early in the morning, so just forgot). When I got to Marylebone I brought the next available ticket from Bicester to Marylebone which turns out was an ‘off-peak’ ticket and thus didn’t let me through the barriers.
Now, in my infinite stupidity I brought a ticket from Wembley to Marylebone to get me through the barriers.. note this was a sheer lapse in judgement and was a stupid mistake. Immediately I was then detained by a TIL chap in plain clothes, who put me under caution and interviewed me. I was honest about my situation, gave my details and let him know I had made a stupid mistake and I’m happy to pay the penalty fare.
Just to note a few questions I answered ‘no comment’ as he has put me under caution half way through the interview, so thought best to keep quiet after that. I was honest before he put me under caution about the mistake though.
I am now awaiting the letter to hear my fate.
I am keen to get some advice if possible please, ideally:
1. What is the chance this can be settled outside of court? I presume prosecution is reserved for more egregious violations?
2. Worse case and I’m prosecuted, will I need to inform my governing body? (RICS). Appreciate this is a fairly niche question.
3. Any other advice that can help soothe my anxiety.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Random note, the chap that caught me was very rude and aggressive. I presume this is a tactic to make people fess up?
You’ve probably heard this all before but i’m a little worried about this situation.
Here are the facts:
I travel regularly from Bicester North to Marylebone. 3 times PW typically. To note I have a valid railcard I use to.
One time, two weeks ago, I forgot to buy my ticket from Bicester (no barriers and was early in the morning, so just forgot). When I got to Marylebone I brought the next available ticket from Bicester to Marylebone which turns out was an ‘off-peak’ ticket and thus didn’t let me through the barriers.
Now, in my infinite stupidity I brought a ticket from Wembley to Marylebone to get me through the barriers.. note this was a sheer lapse in judgement and was a stupid mistake. Immediately I was then detained by a TIL chap in plain clothes, who put me under caution and interviewed me. I was honest about my situation, gave my details and let him know I had made a stupid mistake and I’m happy to pay the penalty fare.
Just to note a few questions I answered ‘no comment’ as he has put me under caution half way through the interview, so thought best to keep quiet after that. I was honest before he put me under caution about the mistake though.
I am now awaiting the letter to hear my fate.
I am keen to get some advice if possible please, ideally:
1. What is the chance this can be settled outside of court? I presume prosecution is reserved for more egregious violations?
2. Worse case and I’m prosecuted, will I need to inform my governing body? (RICS). Appreciate this is a fairly niche question.
3. Any other advice that can help soothe my anxiety.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Random note, the chap that caught me was very rude and aggressive. I presume this is a tactic to make people fess up?
Check some other threads involving Chiltern for background but they do take a hard line and their usual agents TIL seem to take some effort to convince to offer a settlement (2 or 3 times to request it seems to be common), so you will need to prepare for that.
Buying the ticket from Wembley was the big error - as that looks like the actions of a deliberate fare evader, you may have been able to pay an excess with the invalid Off Peak fare, though it's not certain. Had you bought an Anytime fare I suspect the barriers would have just opened and no one would have noticed that you had travelled without a valid ticket (it's stepping on the train before you buy a ticket that I think is technically the offence and a close inspection of a paper or online ticket shows the time of purchase).
If you get a settlement presumably you don't have to inform RICS, but in the meantime you could check what they say on their website if they set out what you need to report to them I suppose. No doubt you have thought of that.
The manner of the (or an) inspector at Maryebone is often mentioned on here as it happens. No idea if this is the same guy in every instance or if they all work to that standard, but suffice to say you are not alone in mentioning it!
If you get a settlement offer I fear you are going to have to pay for an Anytime fare plus some sort of admin fee, so the sum paid on the off peak ticket and the Wembley single will be money down the drain, but the fact you tried to buy a ticket from Bicester is at least something you can say in mitigation.
When they write to you you will need to engage with them, as without that they will almost certainly take it to court. I suspect every case, however small, goes in the court pile for people who ignore their request for your version of events, so you can't assume it's just the more serious ones that end up in court. The law is such that it's seemingly easy for them to secure court convictions for anyone without a valid ticket so they may have little incentive not to do that where they have the evidence or an admission.
You’ve probably heard this all before but i’m a little worried about this situation.
Here are the facts:
I travel regularly from Bicester North to Marylebone. 3 times PW typically. To note I have a valid railcard I use to.
One time, two weeks ago, I forgot to buy my ticket from Bicester (no barriers and was early in the morning, so just forgot). When I got to Marylebone I brought the next available ticket from Bicester to Marylebone which turns out was an ‘off-peak’ ticket and thus didn’t let me through the barriers.
Now, in my infinite stupidity I brought a ticket from Wembley to Marylebone to get me through the barriers.. note this was a sheer lapse in judgement and was a stupid mistake. Immediately I was then detained by a TIL chap in plain clothes, who put me under caution and interviewed me. I was honest about my situation, gave my details and let him know I had made a stupid mistake and I’m happy to pay the penalty fare.
Just to note a few questions I answered ‘no comment’ as he has put me under caution half way through the interview, so thought best to keep quiet after that. I was honest before he put me under caution about the mistake though.
I am now awaiting the letter to hear my fate.
I am keen to get some advice if possible please, ideally:
1. What is the chance this can be settled outside of court? I presume prosecution is reserved for more egregious violations?
2. Worse case and I’m prosecuted, will I need to inform my governing body? (RICS). Appreciate this is a fairly niche question.
3. Any other advice that can help soothe my anxiety.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Random note, the chap that caught me was very rude and aggressive. I presume this is a tactic to make people fess up?
I will happily answer some of your questions here.
1. There is a good chance but Chiltern Railways (as well as Transport for Wales, Cross Country and I believe also Avanti West Coast but I'm not sure) outsource fare evasion prosecutions to a company called TIL (Transport Investigations Limited). TIL are known for threatening court action a lot of the times so you'll need to make sure you keep writing to them at least 2 or 3 times to ensure an out of court settlement, however, reading many threads, lots of people have managed to achieve out of court settlements with TIL (including with Chiltern Railways disputes), so I'm sure you'll be able to achieve an out of court settlement too
2 is best answered by more knowledgeable people who will happily assist you.
3. Stay calm, relax and enjoy your life, and wait until the letter arrives. Then after that we can give you advice on what to do next.
More importantly, I advise not to buy short distance one stop tickets next time, such as from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone, as that tends to be viewed that you try to deliberately avoid paying (and therefore cheat the system) so you only pay to exit the barriers.
Transport Investigations Limited are know for sending out letters which ask for your side of the event, then sending a reply saying they see no reason not to proceed with the prosecution. The person concerned then needs to write to them a second or even third time asking again for an out of court settlement. This is definitely best done in writing so you will need to persist each time they send you a letter until they do actually offer you a settlement.
I was once asked for my details by one of their staff members and I point blank refuse to give my details because I was a 100% sure my ticket was unequivocally valid. I was not prepared to go down the road of negotiating or pleading my innocence with them. When I was totally positive that my ticket was valid.
I am trying to help you here but I want you to realise that there has been a lot of cases on the forum of people buying tickets from Wembley to Marylebone and this will straight away raise alarm bells in the minds of any person checking tickets at Marylebone. Were you able to purchase this as an e-ticket?
Have you purchased a ticket from Wembley to Marylebone before? We can pretty much guarantee that they will be investigating your online purchase history, they will send requests to the various online ticket retailers for copies of your purchase records, so it is best addressing this issue now.
Did you tell the inspector about your existing ticket, which covered your full journey but was invalid? Did you make an admission that you knew your fare not to be valid which provided your motivation to buy the extra Wembley ticket to leave the premises without paying the proper fare?
Most of the time Chiltern/TIL are dealing with people who have no ticket at all and a lot of the time they end up prosecuting people. It’s not impossible to get a settlement here, you may need to write a few times, but you should know the company has a reasonably substantial appetite for prosecuting people.
It is likely you will need to inform your governing body if you are *charged* with an offence. That hasn’t happened yet, and you should check with RICS about what their misconduct rules are.
Currently Chiltern/TIL likely now have evidence of two offences. That of a strict liability bylaw offence of “enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel”, and the more serious Regulation of Railways Act 1889 which requires an intent to evade the fare.
The regrettable irony is that by purchasing the Wembley ticket you have clearly shown an intent to exit the station without discharging your liability to pay the full fare. Had you not done this, it is very unlikely any intent could have been deduced by you merely having the incorrect ticket.
At the moment, you should sit tight and wait for the letter, which can sometimes take a few months to arrive.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
I am trying to help you here but I want you to realise that there has been a lot of cases on the forum of people buying tickets from Wembley to Marylebone and this will straight away raise alarm bells in the minds of any person checking tickets at Marylebone. Were you able to purchase this as an e-ticket?
Have you purchased a ticket from Wembley to Marylebone before? We can pretty much guarantee that they will be investigating your online purchase history, they will send requests to the various online ticket retailers for copies of your purchase records, so it is best addressing this issue now.
So what tickets precisely did you purchase, at what prices? Returns? Singles? Add up what you paid and compare with what you should have paid. How did you buy each of the tickets? All on your phone as e-tickets?
"Very rude and aggressive" is a matter of concern. People have said similar things on here before about Marylebone. What specific words or actions led you to describe the encounter in that way? Was a body camera used? If so, ask for the footage at some stage, and find someone independent to assess it dispassionately. Could the encounter alternatively be described as "Very assertive but always courteous" and if not, why not specifically?
The legal standard if you want to consider whether the chap might have committed a railway offence is:
No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway.
No person shall behave in a disorderly, indecent or offensive manner on the railway.
No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the railway.
and separately there are professional standards which could form the basis of disciplinary action.
Write down everything you can remember while it is still fresh in your mind then in the cold light of day consider whether it's worth making a complaint.
Check some other threads involving Chiltern for background but they do take a hard line and their usual agents TIL seem to take some effort to convince to offer a settlement (2 or 3 times to request it seems to be common), so you will need to prepare for that.
Buying the ticket from Wembley was the big error - as that looks like the actions of a deliberate fare evader, you may have been able to pay an excess with the invalid Off Peak fare, though it's not certain. Had you bought an Anytime fare I suspect the barriers would have just opened and no one would have noticed that you had travelled without a valid ticket (it's stepping on the train before you buy a ticket that I think is technically the offence and a close inspection of a paper or online ticket shows the time of purchase).
If you get a settlement presumably you don't have to inform RICS, but in the meantime you could check what they say on their website if they set out what you need to report to them I suppose. No doubt you have thought of that.
The manner of the (or an) inspector at Maryebone is often mentioned on here as it happens. No idea if this is the same guy in every instance or if they all work to that standard, but suffice to say you are not alone in mentioning it!
If you get a settlement offer I fear you are going to have to pay for an Anytime fare plus some sort of admin fee, so the sum paid on the off peak ticket and the Wembley single will be money down the drain, but the fact you tried to buy a ticket from Bicester is at least something you can say in mitigation.
When they write to you you will need to engage with them, as without that they will almost certainly take it to court. I suspect every case, however small, goes in the court pile for people who ignore their request for your version of events, so you can't assume it's just the more serious ones that end up in court. The law is such that it's seemingly easy for them to secure court convictions for anyone without a valid ticket so they may have little incentive not to do that where they have the evidence or an admission.
Check some other threads involving Chiltern for background but they do take a hard line and their usual agents TIL seem to take some effort to convince to offer a settlement (2 or 3 times to request it seems to be common), so you will need to prepare for that.
Buying the ticket from Wembley was the big error - as that looks like the actions of a deliberate fare evader, you may have been able to pay an excess with the invalid Off Peak fare, though it's not certain. Had you bought an Anytime fare I suspect the barriers would have just opened and no one would have noticed that you had travelled without a valid ticket (it's stepping on the train before you buy a ticket that I think is technically the offence and a close inspection of a paper or online ticket shows the time of purchase).
If you get a settlement presumably you don't have to inform RICS, but in the meantime you could check what they say on their website if they set out what you need to report to them I suppose. No doubt you have thought of that.
The manner of the (or an) inspector at Maryebone is often mentioned on here as it happens. No idea if this is the same guy in every instance or if they all work to that standard, but suffice to say you are not alone in mentioning it!
If you get a settlement offer I fear you are going to have to pay for an Anytime fare plus some sort of admin fee, so the sum paid on the off peak ticket and the Wembley single will be money down the drain, but the fact you tried to buy a ticket from Bicester is at least something you can say in mitigation.
When they write to you you will need to engage with them, as without that they will almost certainly take it to court. I suspect every case, however small, goes in the court pile for people who ignore their request for your version of events, so you can't assume it's just the more serious ones that end up in court. The law is such that it's seemingly easy for them to secure court convictions for anyone without a valid ticket so they may have little incentive not to do that where they have the evidence or an admission.
I will happily answer some of your questions here.
1. There is a good chance but Chiltern Railways (as well as Transport for Wales, Cross Country and I believe also Avanti West Coast but I'm not sure) outsource fare evasion prosecutions to a company called TIL (Transport Investigations Limited). TIL are known for threatening court action a lot of the times so you'll need to make sure you keep writing to them at least 2 or 3 times to ensure an out of court settlement, however, reading many threads, lots of people have managed to achieve out of court settlements with TIL (including with Chiltern Railways disputes), so I'm sure you'll be able to achieve an out of court settlement too
2 is best answered by more knowledgeable people who will happily assist you.
3. Stay calm, relax and enjoy your life, and wait until the letter arrives. Then after that we can give you advice on what to do next.
More importantly, I advise not to buy short distance one stop tickets next time, such as from Wembley Stadium to London Marylebone, as that tends to be viewed that you try to deliberately avoid paying (and therefore cheat the system) so you only pay to exit the barriers.
Transport Investigations Limited are know for sending out letters which ask for your side of the event, then sending a reply saying they see no reason not to proceed with the prosecution. The person concerned then needs to write to them a second or even third time asking again for an out of court settlement. This is definitely best done in writing so you will need to persist each time they send you a letter until they do actually offer you a settlement.
I was once asked for my details by one of their staff members and I point blank refuse to give my details because I was a 100% sure my ticket was unequivocally valid. I was not prepared to go down the road of negotiating or pleading my innocence with them. When I was totally positive that my ticket was valid.
I am trying to help you here but I want you to realise that there has been a lot of cases on the forum of people buying tickets from Wembley to Marylebone and this will straight away raise alarm bells in the minds of any person checking tickets at Marylebone. Were you able to purchase this as an e-ticket?
Have you purchased a ticket from Wembley to Marylebone before? We can pretty much guarantee that they will be investigating your online purchase history, they will send requests to the various online ticket retailers for copies of your purchase records, so it is best addressing this issue now.
Again, many thanks for your responses. It’s restored my faith in humanity and is phenomenal that this community is so happy to help a complete stranger, with such excellent advice.
That's interesting that you refused to give your details. I was tempted to do the same but chickened out. What ended up happening to you after?
Yes, I have seen the other posts. It seems a common platform to short on given its proximity to Marylebone. I purchased this on trainline and had it printed out in the booth (stupid mistake i know).
My online purchase history will be scattered (but legitimate), due to my job i often travel from Bicester to Wembley and then from Wembley to Marylebone after the site visit.
My total amount spent on rail travel over the years easily equates to £20,000+ due to the amount I need to travel. Hopefully that counts for something. Another note (i may be reaching) is that if the trains are delayed (which happened fairly regularly) I never ask for compensation.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Did you tell the inspector about your existing ticket, which covered your full journey but was invalid? Did you make an admission that you knew your fare not to be valid which provided your motivation to buy the extra Wembley ticket to leave the premises without paying the proper fare?
Most of the time Chiltern/TIL are dealing with people who have no ticket at all and a lot of the time they end up prosecuting people. It’s not impossible to get a settlement here, you may need to write a few times, but you should know the company has a reasonably substantial appetite for prosecuting people.
It is likely you will need to inform your governing body if you are *charged* with an offence. That hasn’t happened yet, and you should check with RICS about what their misconduct rules are.
Currently Chiltern/TIL likely now have evidence of two offences. That of a strict liability bylaw offence of “enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel”, and the more serious Regulation of Railways Act 1889 which requires an intent to evade the fare.
The regrettable irony is that by purchasing the Wembley ticket you have clearly shown an intent to exit the station without discharging your liability to pay the full fare. Had you not done this, it is very unlikely any intent could have been deduced by you merely having the incorrect ticket.
At the moment, you should sit tight and wait for the letter, which can sometimes take a few months to arrive.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Yes, this was the first thing I said, to which he didn't care. Before I was put under caution I did admit my wrongdoings, yes. I thought it best to come clean as I am a very bad liar haha.
Okay that's good to know, sounds like I should expect the worse and hope for the best then. Hopefully the mitigation of trying to buy the right ticket will help, the subsequent Wembley ticket was just stupid though and I'll be kicking myself for a long time.
Thanks, ill check with RICS online.
Hmm, I've been a right idiot here. The other ironic point is my combined fares is probably the same as I would have spent on a regular ticket! *facepalm*.
Its my mistake so I'm happy to face the consequences, I just hope I can reach an out of court settlement as a criminal record would likely ruin my career.
Thanks again for your considered response and help.
We are seeing lots of these cases recently, especially involving Chiltern and tickets from Wembley Stadium.
As for what will happen next I expect you will receive a letter from Chiltern or an investigation company acting on their behalf. The letter will typically take a couple of months to arrive but can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:
- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter
Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.
Be aware that Chiltern will be able to search your omline ticket purchase history and if you have done this before you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.
If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.
Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it. for you.
I wanna say firstly do not panic. I had this with my cousin who was caught for the exact same thing. He did it numerous times which aggravated the case but after 1 letter, an out of court settlement was made for 3 journeys and admin costs. The amazing people here helped write the letter and we managed to achieve a result.
The inspector..yes my cousin said he was very rude and threw around his ‘power’. I’ve seen, (Mostly over train companies) that some officers are very nice but the Marylebone ones are not. I went with my cousin to Marylebone to get to Wembley a few times for concerts and footy and he pointed him out and we saw him basically bullying people. I’m going off topic but after this has been settled, please do make a complaint. My cousin wishes he did but we think it was too late (this was over a year ago)
Everyone has gave great advice. The letter takes up to 6 months. My cousin got his on month 5. Judging by what you have said, I think a settlement will be reached easy as you haven’t done it before.
Like I said, don’t panic. Enjoy life and you’ll let it go to the back of your mind. Don’t be scared to take trains as my cousin was a few months. Don’t let it put you off with life. Granted, having the right ticket travelling after this will see good intent in my opinion? Take it easy, mate!
Me: "am i under a police caution then?"
Him: "No, if i wanted the police to do that I would take you to them over there".
Me: "I'm sorry mate I wasn't trying to be rude".
Me: "Sorry mate, I've really F'ed it here and made a stupid mistake which I'm happy to explain"
Him: "Can you stop f'ing and blinding at me"
If this is a typical part of the conversation (and of course, you were there and we weren't) then I don't think that a complaint about the railway officer's language and demeanour would get very far. It seems that you were the one using foul language, and the railway officer's comments seem to have been direct but not offensive.
What is 'rude and aggressive' behaviour is a very subjective thing to assess. The people involved obviously have the most knowledge of what was going on - but they also have a reason for wanting a particular conclusion. The typical railway officer will be trying to get at facts, and if the person they have pulled over has been fare-dodging, then they may be quite keen to conceal those facts. So what the railway officer sees as assertive questioning may be interpreted by the person pulled over as being aggressive.
My total amount spent on rail travel over the years easily equates to £20,000+ due to the amount I need to travel. Hopefully that counts for something. Another note (i may be reaching) is that if the trains are delayed (which happened fairly regularly) I never ask for compensation.
I think in terms of your approach you will want to explain the situation and the nature of the error clearly in your first response, but given the probability of needing to make subsequent requests to them for the settlement - you could 'hold something back' to put in subsequent letters - eg your point about spending in the region of £20k on rail travel as a consequence of your employment - that might be a good point to make in terms of being clear that you have a regular payment record and are not in the habit of evading fares.
If they accuse you of other occasions when you have had Wembley to London tickets (legitimate ones as you mention needing to visit there for work related reasons) then a) address it if they raise it and b) be prepared to be able to evidence it - by which I assume examples of the reasons you need to go there and why I would think.
On a related matter if I were in your position I'd certainly be claiming any Delay Repay compensation for late trains you may be entitled to - but that's a separate matter!
Keep an eye out for their letter - I assume the address they took down is accurate for you and will be valid for up to the next 6 months or so. It's important you get anything from them or it will just go on to the conveyor belt to court I suspect.
I was once asked for my details by one of their staff members and I point blank refuse to give my details because I was a 100% sure my ticket was unequivocally valid. I was not prepared to go down the road of negotiating or pleading my innocence with them. When I was totally positive that my ticket was valid.
If an RPI refuses to acknowledge or believe that your ticket is valid when it actually is, are you still committing an offence by refusing to give your details when asked?
If the OP was genuinely trying to bring the total of his tickets up the correct fare, I'd suggest making this point in his response, as mitigation. The fact that the numbers didn't quite add up is understandable, as he was in no position to run the full comparison. That said, the actual offence is of course undeniable, committed as soon as he joined the train.
On another point, the OP says he was travelling peak, but talks about using a Railcard. Is this valid in peak hours on this route?
If an RPI refuses to acknowledge or believe that your ticket is valid when it actually is, are you still committing an offence by refusing to give your details when asked?
It depends whether the RPI had reasonable suspicion, but that is for another thread and not for here, which is about helping the OP who is in a lot of bother.
If this is a typical part of the conversation (and of course, you were there and we weren't) then I don't think that a complaint about the railway officer's language and demeanour would get very far. It seems that you were the one using foul language, and the railway officer's comments seem to have been direct but not offensive.
Also agreed. Accusing someone of committing a criminal offence when you have reason to believe they have done so is not rude.
One frequent observation I have from the forum is that people who have been caught committing a criminal offence on the railway advance accusations against the railway officer who caught them of rudeness and other misconduct. It may be that posters incorrectly think that perceived "rudeness" by the railway officer somehow cancels out or mitigates their own offence in some way. This is not the case. Any complaints of "rudeness" can of course be taken up via customer service channels (subject to what I and others have said above about what actually is genuine "rudeness") but will not prevent a prosecution for the underlying ticketing offence.
Whilst accepting that the officer's "rudeness" is absolutely not a "get out of jail free" card, only the most naive would assume that people in positions of power are always unfailingly polite/fair/reasonable/respectful in dealing with members of the public. Especially on the railway.
Also agreed. Accusing someone of committing a criminal offence when you have reason to believe they have done so is not rude.
One frequent observation I have from the forum is that people who have been caught committing a criminal offence on the railway advance accusations against the railway officer who caught them of rudeness and other misconduct. It may be that posters incorrectly think that perceived "rudeness" by the railway officer somehow cancels out or mitigates their own offence in some way. This is not the case. Any complaints of "rudeness" can of course be taken up via customer service channels (subject to what I and others have said above about what actually is genuine "rudeness") but will not prevent a prosecution for the underlying ticketing offence.
Trying to see both points of view I suspect
- passengers who largely always try to buy the right ticket and occasionally make a mistake think ' why am I being treated like a criminal and being given the 3rd degree, surely this guy can appreciate a mistake is possible and give me a chance to try and explain'
meanwhile
- RPIs see a vast amount of deliberate fare evasion and lies from people being questioned that an 'assertive manner' ends up being the default for everyone. And even from anecdote amongst my own acquaintances low level fare evasion is pretty common amongst some people who take the view 'no one came round to sell me a ticket etc' - which is a version of the pay when challenged behaviour, and see it as a victimless crime.
So unfortunately you can't claim you overpaid overall.
The first ticket says: Not valid on any train timed to arrive at London Marylebone after 04:29 and before 10:00.
Presumably the train was due to arrive before 10am? Which railcard?
In normal circumstances (with no evidence you'd deliberately underpaid), under the Conditions of Travel, you were entitled just to pay the difference in fare. (You could still be pulled up for not buying the ticket before you got on the train and set off - though leeway is usually granted if you buy the right ticket straight after boarding before you are challenged.)
The Wembley ticket at that price is an Anytime Single - did you buy it from a person (excess fares window?) without showing the ticket you already held? It regularised the last part of your journey, but as AlterEgo says, your request to purchase it might be used to infer that, at that point in time, you momentarily intended to avoid full payment for the first portion of your journey (and the journey is effectively considered not to end until you've left railway premises and you can combine two tickets to make one journey) - 'Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof'.
So that sounds like a robust case, and while your description of the encounter might be 'pushing the boundaries' of what's acceptable, I doubt it really crossed them. After giving your name and address, you were free to leave at any point and presumably access to the online banking details was provided voluntarily, even if reluctantly, and not obtained by force.
I wanna say firstly do not panic. I had this with my cousin who was caught for the exact same thing. He did it numerous times which aggravated the case but after 1 letter, an out of court settlement was made for 3 journeys and admin costs. The amazing people here helped write the letter and we managed to achieve a result.
The inspector..yes my cousin said he was very rude and threw around his ‘power’. I’ve seen, (Mostly over train companies) that some officers are very nice but the Marylebone ones are not. I went with my cousin to Marylebone to get to Wembley a few times for concerts and footy and he pointed him out and we saw him basically bullying people. I’m going off topic but after this has been settled, please do make a complaint. My cousin wishes he did but we think it was too late (this was over a year ago)
Everyone has gave great advice. The letter takes up to 6 months. My cousin got his on month 5. Judging by what you have said, I think a settlement will be reached easy as you haven’t done it before.
Like I said, don’t panic. Enjoy life and you’ll let it go to the back of your mind. Don’t be scared to take trains as my cousin was a few months. Don’t let it put you off with life. Granted, having the right ticket travelling after this will see good intent in my opinion? Take it easy, mate!
I think in terms of your approach you will want to explain the situation and the nature of the error clearly in your first response, but given the probability of needing to make subsequent requests to them for the settlement - you could 'hold something back' to put in subsequent letters - eg your point about spending in the region of £20k on rail travel as a consequence of your employment - that might be a good point to make in terms of being clear that you have a regular payment record and are not in the habit of evading fares.
If they accuse you of other occasions when you have had Wembley to London tickets (legitimate ones as you mention needing to visit there for work related reasons) then a) address it if they raise it and b) be prepared to be able to evidence it - by which I assume examples of the reasons you need to go there and why I would think.
On a related matter if I were in your position I'd certainly be claiming any Delay Repay compensation for late trains you may be entitled to - but that's a separate matter!
Keep an eye out for their letter - I assume the address they took down is accurate for you and will be valid for up to the next 6 months or so. It's important you get anything from them or it will just go on to the conveyor belt to court I suspect.
Very interesting, I’ll take that advice for when the letter lands. Thanks.
Good point about holding the total spend in my back pocket, hopefully this should strengthen my case!
Yes, moving forward I will certainly be claiming any delay repay I can.. I dread to equate the total refund I have missed out by not claiming over the years.
Also agreed. Accusing someone of committing a criminal offence when you have reason to believe they have done so is not rude.
One frequent observation I have from the forum is that people who have been caught committing a criminal offence on the railway advance accusations against the railway officer who caught them of rudeness and other misconduct. It may be that posters incorrectly think that perceived "rudeness" by the railway officer somehow cancels out or mitigates their own offence in some way. This is not the case. Any complaints of "rudeness" can of course be taken up via customer service channels (subject to what I and others have said above about what actually is genuine "rudeness") but will not prevent a prosecution for the underlying ticketing offence.
Sorry for the confusion here, I do not expect any complaint to mitigate the case in any way. This was more of a side note.
I appreciate most people that were caught (including me) will have an element of bias against the person catching them. It’s very subjective at the end of the day, but I do think he could have gone about it in a more polite and less hostile way.
I likely won’t be making a complaint, as this chap has done his job at the end of the day.
Trying to see both points of view I suspect
- passengers who largely always try to buy the right ticket and occasionally make a mistake think ' why am I being treated like a criminal and being given the 3rd degree, surely this guy can appreciate a mistake is possible and give me a chance to try and explain'
meanwhile
- RPIs see a vast amount of deliberate fare evasion and lies from people being questioned that an 'assertive manner' ends up being the default for everyone. And even from anecdote amongst my own acquaintances low level fare evasion is pretty common amongst some people who take the view 'no one came round to sell me a ticket etc' - which is a version of the pay when challenged behaviour, and see it as a victimless crime.
5 months later I have received my letter, interesting read and almost looks like a phishing expedition!
I have attached my letter and files. Very strange as they are accusing me of travelling multiple times without a valid ticket, but have not given any examples? Is this normal? As I said before I have a huge rail travel history, probably equating to £10k or more of travel so how am I supposed to give any examples?
Anyway, if you kind people would be able to provide any advice that would be much appreciated.
I suppose the first question is, have you ever done this before? Chiltern seem to think you have.
That would seem an obvious thing to check off the list before we proceed. If not, you do not need to fill out the form, and must simply respond that you have always paid the correct fare.
Its possible I have done this by mistake before, but nothing that I can remember. there was an incident a long time ago (pre-COVID) where my weekly railcard had expired and I got caught on the train and the inspector just got me to buy my full ticket. Could it be that?
Should I ask them for specific examples so I can review?
there was an incident a long time ago (pre-COVID) where my weekly railcard had expired and I got caught on the train and the inspector just got me to buy my full ticket. Could it be that?
Not directly, but I would simply state that "Other than this incident I have always purchased what I believe to be the correct ticket for my journey, and have not been challenged in this regard before". Do not invite further discussion about any speculative historic allegations as you will get into a big deep hole even if you have nothing to hide.
No, accidentally buying an off-peak ticket at peak times. I travel at random times of the day all the time because of the nature of my job as a building surveyor, and I suspect this may have raised some flags with them.
Not directly, but I would simply state that "Other than this incident I have always purchased what I believe to be the correct ticket for my journey, and have not been challenged in this regard before". Do not invite further discussion about any speculative historic allegations as you will get into a big deep hole even if you have nothing to hide.
I’ll draft a letter tonight or tomorrow and send it in to review it that is okay with everyone? Appreciate everyone has their own stuff going on so no worries if you don’t have time.
