My proposal to split up the CrossCountry Network

[daodao]

I have previously made suggestions to streamline the XC network:

I would reconfigure XC into just 3 core hourly services:

• Plymouth-Birmingham-Doncaster-Edinburgh
• Bournemouth-Birmingham-Leeds
• Cardiff-Birmingham-Nottingham

I would pass the Birmingham-Leicester-Cambridge services and associated trains to the East Midlands "franchise", in addition to passing the Birmingham-Manchester services to LNWR to run with class 350/2 trains.

The Liverpool-Birmingham service is already run with an hourly 8-coach emu, so running the Manchester-Birmingham service in a similar way is equitable. There should not be an issue with capacity at New Street as the Liverpool-Birmingham service was formerly twice hourly. The Plymouth-Edinburgh train should just call at Derby between Birmingham and Sheffield, with the service to Leeds stopping at Tamworth, Burton and Chesterfield as well.

 

[Magdalia]

SX is pretty well patronised but assuming it gets 9 million passengers a year at 4tph, you are unlikely to see more than 400 passengers per train, even at peak times unless you start adding stops as GA is doing, which is almost certainly a cheaper alternative to running peak extras. I'd say you'll need at least 12 diagrams (4 5 car, 4 10 car)

You have miscalculated here. 4 trains per hour on the Stansted Express requires 9 trains not 8. And all need to be full length trains as you need to count in the bulk of the passenger flows between Bishops Stortford/Harlow Town and London too.

What I'd do with the 745 fleet is move 9 of the SX units over to GN (yes, a lot of SDO will be needed), along with modifying them for 115mph as that is around the max before large crumple zones are needed, along with being the max for a significant portion of the south ECML

This would need a complete remodelling and resignalling of Kings Lynn, like Hertford East but more, because all of the berthing sidings would need to be lengthened too, not just the platforms. And it might also require a power supply upgrade.

Then add in that a class 745 won't fit into platforms 9 and 10 at Kings Cross, where most GN services arrive and depart.

Also, running GN services at faster than 100mph won't happen because the benefits are tiny, but that's straying even further away from the topic. It has been covered elsewhere recently.

 

[dk1]

You have miscalculated here. 4 trains per hour on the Stansted Express requires 9 trains not 8. And all need to be full length trains as you need to count in the bulk of the passenger flows between Bishops Stortford/Harlow Town and London too.



This would need a complete remodelling and resignalling of Kings Lynn, like Hertford East but more, because all of the berthing sidings would need to be lengthened too, not just the platforms. And it might also require a power supply upgrade.

Then add in that a class 745 won't fit into platforms 9 and 10 at Kings Cross, where most GN services arrive and depart.

Also, running GN services at faster than 100mph won't happen because the benefits are tiny, but that's straying even further away from the topic. It has been covered elsewhere recently.

Apart from those critical points don’t forget the vast amount of expensive crew training that would result. Just better to concentrate all 745 operation on the GEML keeping them close to their home depot as was proposed last year.

 

[A0]

A good way to deal with that would be to resurrect an old service from Central trains days, Birmingham-Peterborough via Nottingham and Lincoln, incorporating Lincoln Peterborough, Birmingham-Leicester and Leicster-Lincoln, though I do admit some padding around Newark would be required. Another advantage of the 755s would be the ability to incorporate a stop at Hinkley to give it 2tph between Leicster and Birmingham without impacting the timings.

Bit in bold. <Checks map> - erm, why ? In what possible universe does a Birmingham to Peterborough service which needs to take in Lincoln and Nottingham make sense ?

 

[A0]

Also, running GN services at faster than 100mph won't happen because the benefits are tiny, but that's straying even further away from the topic. It has been covered elsewhere recently.

Even if it were worthwhile, given the 350s on the WCML were modified to achieve 110 mph running, surely similar modifications would be possible to the 387s and 700s to achieve that without the need for a cascade of stock introducing yet another EMU variant on the GN lines.....

 

[irish_rail]

The XC service needs extra capacity, not restructuring.
The only thing I would like to see altered is when (if?) the full Reading to Newcastle returns, it manages to get all the services in the faster* xx28 path north of Birmingham as a handful of them used to.
As for capacity, take your pick from extra Voyagers or Meridians, but it needs to be funded, which is unlikely at the present time.

You say that, but the connections between southwest and North west are none existent at New Street. Something either needs re timing or some direct trains brought in . But I agree extra capacity is also very much needed on top of that too.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I know this will sound crazy but I would be tempted to slash the Birmingham to Nottingham services to hourly by keeping the Cardiff to Nottinghams.

The xx:12 / xx:19 starters I'd have come from Didcot Parkway and provide a 3rd North East service per hour, replacing the GWR Turbo service to & from Didcot Parkway and Oxford. Isn't there meant to be an additional Oxford - Birmingham service when Oxford stations been remodelled. Not with existing trains though - more on that in another thread.

 

[ChrisC]

I know this will sound crazy but I would be tempted to slash the Birmingham to Nottingham services to hourly by keeping the Cardiff to Nottinghams.

Upgrading the Cardiff to Nottingham’s to a more intercity style service only stopping at major stations would be an idea. Between Birmingham and Nottingham just calling at Tamworth, Burton on Trent and Derby. The Birmingham to Nottingham could them be run more as a local service perhaps by EMR calling in additionally at Wilnecote, Willington, Long Eaton and Beeston. Even stops at Attenborough, Spondon and Water Orion could be included.

 

[JonathanH]

The Birmingham to Nottingham could them be run more as a local service perhaps by EMR calling in additionally at Wilnecote, Willington, Long Eaton and Beeston. Even stops at Attenborough, Spondon and Water Orion could be included.

Filling up the Birmingham to Derby line with more services wasn't a good idea in the early Operation Princess days. Four trains an hour with the Birmingham to Nottingham services picking up the intermediate stops is a sensible compromise. There is no reason to have a separate operator for these services.

 

[The Planner]

I know this will sound crazy but I would be tempted to slash the Birmingham to Nottingham services to hourly by keeping the Cardiff to Nottinghams.

The xx:12 / xx:19 starters I'd have come from Didcot Parkway and provide a 3rd North East service per hour, replacing the GWR Turbo service to & from Didcot Parkway and Oxford. Isn't there meant to be an additional Oxford - Birmingham service when Oxford stations been remodelled. Not with existing trains though - more on that in another thread.

No, the additional Oxford is reliant on Leamington to Coventry upgrades, which are a long way off and it goes to Moor St, not New St.

 

[Brubulus]

Bit in bold. <Checks map> - erm, why ? In what possible universe does a Birmingham to Peterborough service which needs to take in Lincoln and Nottingham make sense ?

It was for operational convenience and efficient fleet diagramming, not designed as an actual through service.

Even if it were worthwhile, given the 350s on the WCML were modified to achieve 110 mph running, surely similar modifications would be possible to the 387s and 700s to achieve that without the need for a cascade of stock introducing yet another EMU variant on the GN lines.....

The 387s on that route can already do 110 but the OLE cannot take 100mph+ on closely spaced pantographs. The reason for any further cascade on GN would be to send the 387s to Southern, to ease their rolling stock shortage but the King's Lynn services on GN are always going to be a microfleet so there isn't that much you can really do. The 745s are relatively well suited for the route and it would not need resignalling however maintainance would be a huge challenge, as with many many microfleets where the depot is not on the line that they operate. Otherwise you could remove the third seat from the spare 720s and fit some tables but you'll still have maintainance issues given they need to be maintained at Ilford.

Looking at 755s, if they can't have 28 out of 38 units operational, they have a significant problem. There's going to be a lot of demand for 170s in the medium term and they are needed on routes where there is no operator which has regional bi-modes with level boarding spare. Possibly the 4 coach units might need the 4th engine removed and replaced with a larger fuel tank if the problem is really that severe. They could cope fine with 3 engines, the 3 car units only have 2 engines.

Birmingham-Derby could easily fit 5tph with 3 intercity services each hour, 1 semi intercity service, an all stops (except water orton) and a freight path if you use half hourly flights of units. This would enable 2tph on Birmingham to Leeds, which should be a more important route for XC than Birmingham-Manchester, which needs an Avanti or LNWR EMU service in addition to a 1tph XC service.

 

[A0]

It was for operational convenience and efficient fleet diagramming, not designed as an actual through service.

The 387s on that route can already do 110 but the OLE cannot take 100mph+ on closely spaced pantographs. The reason for any further cascade on GN would be to send the 387s to Southern, to ease their rolling stock shortage but the King's Lynn services on GN are always going to be a microfleet so there isn't that much you can really do. The 745s are relatively well suited for the route and it would not need resignalling however maintainance would be a huge challenge, as with many many microfleets where the depot is not on the line that they operate. Otherwise you could remove the third seat from the spare 720s and fit some tables but you'll still have maintainance issues given they need to be maintained at Ilford.

But it would unnecessarily be introducing another *type* - in this case Stadlers which Hornsey has no experience of.

As discussed previously either 379s or 350/2s would make more sense if a stock cascade were on the cards, but either way there isn't about to be a stock cascade to Southern.

 

[The Planner]

Birmingham-Derby could easily fit 5tph with 3 intercity services each hour, 1 semi intercity service, an all stops (except water orton) and a freight path if you use half hourly flights of units. This would enable 2tph on Birmingham to Leeds, which should be a more important route for XC than Birmingham-Manchester, which needs an Avanti or LNWR EMU service in addition to a 1tph XC service.

You will need to show your workings there, especially at Water Orton with the crossing moves to/from Sutton Park. That's 7 tph passenger you need to factor in there including the Stansted and Leicester. If you are flighting then an all stations is getting caught up quite quickly by North Staffs Jn. It takes 28½ minutes to do New St to North Staffs Jn with a Tamworth stop on a 22x. 36 minutes for a 170 doing Wilnecote, Tamworth and Burton. A Class 4/6 popping out at Kingsbury takes a good 20 minutes to get to Burton before you can hide it.

 

[dk1]

Looking at 755s, if they can't have 28 out of 38 units operational, they have a significant problem. There's going to be a lot of demand for 170s in the medium term and they are needed on routes where there is no operator which has regional bi-modes with level boarding spare. Possibly the 4 coach units might need the 4th engine removed and replaced with a larger fuel tank if the problem is really that severe. They could cope fine with 3 engines, the 3 car units only have 2 engines.

That would've been done in the first place if it was that simple or possible. The 3-cars have weights in the place of the other two engines. We often have 4 spare at Norwich and another at Ipswich. Some are still being used for testing by Stadler & other sub contractors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Mar 2023 ==

Don't forget 4 will be used on the main line from May to allow the Stansted Express to ramp up peak frequency and a unit at a time is away for engine replacement at Clacton depot.

 

[TheBigD]

Birmingham-Derby could easily fit 5tph with 3 intercity services each hour, 1 semi intercity service, an all stops (except water orton) and a freight path if you use half hourly flights of units. This would enable 2tph on Birmingham to Leeds, which should be a more important route for XC than Birmingham-Manchester, which needs an Avanti or LNWR EMU service in addition to a 1tph XC service.

Operation Princess showed otherwise...

2 x XC (NE-SW/SC)
2 x Central Trains (every 30 minutes Notts-Birmingham-(hourly to Cardiff)
1 x Central Trains Birmingham-Derby-Matlock stopper.

Performance was dire and it was soon reduced to 4 per hour.

 

[Magdalia]

The 745s are relatively well suited for the route and it would not need resignalling

Please explain how you would operate class 745s in and out of Kings Lynn, and berth them there overnight, without resignalling (and track changes).

Note that platforms 1 and 2 are 227m and 183m long respectively, and that the berthing sidings are all 190m or shorter.

 

[Manutd1999]

You say that, but the connections between southwest and North west are none existent at New Street. Something either needs re timing or some direct trains brought in .

I have suggested before that XC services should be re-timed slightly and dwell for longer at New Street to offer connections.

Heading north, the timings at New Street are:

South coast - Manchester: Arrives xx51 Departs xx01
South west - Edinburgh: Arrives xx58 Departs xx03

If the south-west service could arrive at xx49 or earlier, this would permit connections from south-west to Manchester and south-coast to Leeds/Edinburgh. Alternatively the Manchester service could depart at xx10 or later, or some combination of the two.

It would require some re-casting, but is not a huge change in the grand scheme of things.

Once this was done, you could even swap the destinations each hour, such that SW - Edinburgh, SW - Manchester, South Coast - Edinburgh and South Coast - Manchester were all served 1p2h.

 

[The Planner]

I have suggested before that XC services should be re-timed slightly and dwell for longer at New Street to offer connections.

Heading north, the timings at New Street are:

South coast - Manchester: Arrives xx51 Departs xx01
South west - Edinburgh: Arrives xx58 Departs xx03

If the south-west service could arrive at xx49 or earlier, this would permit connections from south-west to Manchester and south-coast to Leeds/Edinburgh. Alternatively the Manchester service could depart at xx10 or later, or some combination of the two.

It would require some re-casting, but is not a huge change in the grand scheme of things.

Once this was done, you could even swap the destinations each hour, such that SW - Edinburgh, SW - Manchester, South Coast - Edinburgh and South Coast - Manchester were all served 1p2h.

"some recasting" Its a bit more than that. You are trying to find 11 minutes on a service that does 500 odd miles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The absolute ideal would be that they arrive on either side of a single island for bidirectional interchange, and are both there for about 5 minutes for this to take place (even if one of them is late). We really do need to modify the way minimum connections are worked out to take that kind of possibility between specific services into account.

On the other hand, if we take the view that there should really be two Manchesters (even if the second one is say LNR rather than XC) then it's sort of solved that way. Frequency is often easier than coordination.

 

[Manutd1999]

You are trying to find 11 minutes on a service that does 500 odd miles.

*9 minutes

If that is too ambitious, you could try to find 2-3 minutes so that the SW service arrives at ~xx56. This would allow it to depart to either Manchester (xx01) or Edinburgh (xx03), alternating with the south-coast service. This wouldn't be enough to meet the minimum connection at New Street, but would allow the destinations to swap each hour, giving a 1p2h direct service to each branch.

 

[TheBigD]

Why would you want to swap the destinations over though?

Pre covid the service had 4 hourly routes...
Plymouth-Birmingham-Edinburgh
Bournemouth-Birmingham-Manchester
Reading-Birmingham-Newcastle (2 hourly Southampton)
Bristol-Birmingham-Manchester (2 x Paignton, 1 x Exeter, 1x Penzance/Plymouth extensions)

Pretty much every main flow could be done without a change.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Why would you want to swap the destinations over though?

Pre covid the service had 4 hourly routes...
Plymouth-Birmingham-Edinburgh
Bournemouth-Birmingham-Manchester
Reading-Birmingham-Newcastle (2 hourly Southampton)
Bristol-Birmingham-Manchester (2 x Paignton, 1 x Exeter, 1x Penzance/Plymouth extensions)

Pretty much every main flow could be done without a change.

Absolutely.

 

[irish_rail]

*9 minutes

If that is too ambitious, you could try to find 2-3 minutes so that the SW service arrives at ~xx56. This would allow it to depart to either Manchester (xx01) or Edinburgh (xx03), alternating with the south-coast service. This wouldn't be enough to meet the minimum connection at New Street, but would allow the destinations to swap each hour, giving a 1p2h direct service to each branch.

That would be better but I suspect in the "too difficult " category.

 

[Brubulus]

Operation Princess showed otherwise...

2 x XC (NE-SW/SC)
2 x Central Trains (every 30 minutes Notts-Birmingham-(hourly to Cardiff)
1 x Central Trains Birmingham-Derby-Matlock stopper.

Performance was dire and it was soon reduced to 4 per hour.

The problem there was too many stoppers. I would say that there needs to be 2tph Birmingham-Leeds, while retaining the via Doncaster and 2tph Nottingham-Birmingham. If you put the 2 Leeds trains in a half hourly path, then path the Nottingham semifast and the via Doncaster right behind those trains. Then behind them you can fit a stopper to Nottingham and a freight path. Do also remember that XC services now have a LOT more padding around Birmingham than they did during Operation Princess.

 

[The Planner]

The problem there was too many stoppers. I would say that there needs to be 2tph Birmingham-Leeds, while retaining the via Doncaster and 2tph Nottingham-Birmingham. If you put the 2 Leeds trains in a half hourly path, then path the Nottingham semifast and the via Doncaster right behind those trains. Then behind them you can fit a stopper to Nottingham and a freight path. Do also remember that XC services now have a LOT more padding around Birmingham than they did during Operation Princess.

What padding?

It takes 30 minutes to do New St to Derby non stop. A semi fast Nottingham with a Tamworth and Burton stop takes 40 minutes. You are on a 4 minute headway from Water Orton to Derby, so your Doncaster cannot get to Derby until xx.44 assuming its another fast, later if it has another stop in it.

A Wilnecote, Tamworth, Burton, Willington train would take 46 minutes, so if the flight out of New St was fast, semi fast, Doncaster, stopper all leaving in a row at 00, 03, 06 and 09, the stopper gets to Derby at xx.55. You then have to fit the Crewe - Newark in to that flight at North Staffs Jn with the next fast arriving at xx.00 and the Doncaster would have to be pathed out massively as it catches the semi-fast. The freight won't fit, especially in the Birmingham direction if a Kingsbury oil train is knocking about.

 

[Brubulus]

What padding?

It takes 30 minutes to do New St to Derby non stop. A semi fast Nottingham with a Tamworth and Burton stop takes 40 minutes. You are on a 4 minute headway from Water Orton to Derby, so your Doncaster cannot get to Derby until xx.44 assuming its another fast, later if it has another stop in it.

A Wilnecote, Tamworth, Burton, Willington train would take 46 minutes, so if the flight out of New St was fast, semi fast, Doncaster, stopper all leaving in a row at 00, 03, 06 and 09, the stopper gets to Derby at xx.55. You then have to fit the Crewe - Newark in to that flight at North Staffs Jn with the next fast arriving at xx.00 and the Doncaster would have to be pathed out massively as it catches the semi-fast. The freight won't fit, especially in the Birmingham direction if a Kingsbury oil train is knocking about.

You will need to show your workings there, especially at Water Orton with the crossing moves to/from Sutton Park. That's 7 tph passenger you need to factor in there including the Stansted and Leicester. If you are flighting then an all stations is getting caught up quite quickly by North Staffs Jn. It takes 28½ minutes to do New St to North Staffs Jn with a Tamworth stop on a 22x. 36 minutes for a 170 doing Wilnecote, Tamworth and Burton. A Class 4/6 popping out at Kingsbury takes a good 20 minutes to get to Burton before you can hide it.

Stansted and Leicster are at 22 and 52 each hour off Birmingham and there there is a path from SW at 26 off Birmingham that would be added to the current services. The current Edinburgh path is at 03 while there are Nottingham paths at 49 and 18. The current Doncaster path is at 30 so may need to be pushed back to 35 which does limit stopping patterns but nothing unsolvable. Conflicting passenger moves across North Staffs are at 54 and 14 so if there are stops at Tamworth and Burton, for the new service it should not interfere. Pathing the freight does seem like it could be difficult, but not insurmountable. The paseneger moves at Water Orton West are at 28 and 04 so again should not conflict.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Stansted and Leicster are at 22 and 52 each hour off Birmingham and there there is a path from SW at 26 off Birmingham that would be added to the current services. The current Edinburgh path is at 53 while there are Nottingham paths at 49 and 12. The current Doncaster path is at 30 so may need to be pushed back to 35 which does limit stopping patterns but nothing unsolvable. Conflicting passenger moves across North Staffs are at 54 and 14 so if there are stops at Tamworth and Burton, for the new service it should not interfere. Pathing the freight does seem like it could be difficult, but not insurmountable. The paseneger moves at Water Orton West are at 28 and 04 so again should not conflict.

The current Edinburgh path is at 03 (not 53) off New St.

 

[The Planner]

Stansted and Leicster are at 22 and 52 each hour off Birmingham and there there is a path from SW at 26 off Birmingham that would be added to the current services. The current Edinburgh path is at 03 while there are Nottingham paths at 49 and 18. The current Doncaster path is at 30 so may need to be pushed back to 35 which does limit stopping patterns but nothing unsolvable. Conflicting passenger moves across North Staffs are at 54 and 14 so if there are stops at Tamworth and Burton, for the new service it should not interfere. Pathing the freight does seem like it could be difficult, but not insurmountable. The paseneger moves at Water Orton West are at 28 and 04 so again should not conflict.

Can't go at 35 as the Reading is at 33 and the Lichfield at 36. What about the freight at Water Orton? XC go across there at 32 and and various times from 02 to 06 towards Coleshill.

 

[Brubulus]

Can't go at 35 as the Reading is at 33 and the Lichfield at 36. What about the freight at Water Orton? XC go across there at 32 and and various times from 02 to 06 towards Coleshill.

Running it at 30 can still work, but it's somewhat tight regards to stopping patterns as you'll have the 26 right behind you but it's still not esp bad.

 

[The Planner]

Running it at 30 can still work, but it's somewhat tight regards to stopping patterns as you'll have the 26 right behind you but it's still not esp bad

That 26 will catch up with the 22 at Water Orton as it turns off then have the 30 right behind it unless the 26 runs fast.