Super off peak return validity Letchworth to Leamington Spa

[philjo]

I will be travelling this week from Letchworth Garden City to Leamington Spa, returning on the same day.
The journey planners are not showing any itineraries for the super off peak return for services departing Letchworth before 0930.

I purchased this ticket for a journey last month from the LNER app without any problems for an earlier service.
Has something changed with the March fares rise?

The ticket restriction code is PU which only shows a restriction on departures from Marylebone or Paddington before 0830 or 15:59 to 19:01.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/PU

Restriction CodePUApplicable days
Mondays-Fridays

Outward Travel	Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart London Marylebone or London Paddington after 04:29 and before 08:30, or after 15:59 and before 19:01. Not valid on trains timed to depart Reading after 04:29 and before 09:30, or after 16:29 and before 19:01.

Thanks

 

[Haywain]

Some journey planners struggle to cope with the 'Network Railcard area rule', and fail to show itineraries that should be valid for cross-London journeys.

In BRFares it can be seen that there are unpublished restrictions that prevent arrival into Kings Cross or St Pancras before 10.00.

 

[philjo]

Some journey planners struggle to cope with the 'Network Railcard area rule', and fail to show itineraries that should be valid for cross-London journeys.

In BRFares it can be seen that there are unpublished restrictions that prevent arrival into Kings Cross or St Pancras before 10.00.

That unpublished restriction is new, as I was able to show itineraries and book one for earlier departures for travel last month. I booked on the LNER app as I had some credit on my account but NRE were also showing the same itinerary at the time. Noe of the sites will show earlier departures now.

 

[Watershed]

I will be travelling this week from Letchworth Garden City to Leamington Spa, returning on the same day.
The journey planners are not showing any itineraries for the super off peak return for services departing Letchworth before 0930.

I purchased this ticket for a journey last month from the LNER app without any problems for an earlier service.
Has something changed with the March fares rise?

The ticket restriction code is PU which only shows a restriction on departures from Marylebone or Paddington before 0830 or 15:59 to 19:01.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/PU



Thanks

As you say, there is nothing in the wording of the restriction which has changed, so I would just ignore what the journey planners say and buy the Super Off-Peak ticket as before, selecting the first itinerary on which it's offered.

Unfortunately it's quite common for unpublished time restrictions to be at odds with what the wording of a restriction says. Whilst the more generous of the two is what counts (a passenger can rely on either), the vast majority of people will not be clued-up on this and will just buy whatever ticket an online journey planner says is needed, likely resulting in them being overcharged.

 

[philjo]

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

The electronic data is erroneous at St Pancras; I've alerted someone who may be in a position to change this.

This error does not apply if changing at Farringdon.

If you go on the forum's site and specify change at: ZFD and via: HWY, this will force a change at Paddington and a via point of High Wycombe. This then offers the ticket you want, for example departing at 0821. (It may not need those via points, I just did it straight away to test it).

In practice you do not actually have to change at Farringdon (though it's a very easy change to the Met if you do change there and Baker St is a very easy change if you get a Met heading westbound; 4th coach from the front for the underpass to the Bakerloo; this also avoids any potential arguments at St Pancras)

 

[CyrusWuff]

It looks like Chiltern's Pricing Manager has applied a blanket "Not valid arriving into London before 10am" restriction for cross-London journeys, but not updated the (public) restriction text to match.

Being cynical, I'd suggest another TOC may have asked them to look at it because it was undercutting their peak fares into London, but the "guilty" party has been masked by the way it's been implemented.

 

[yorkie]

It looks like Chiltern's Pricing Manager has applied a blanket "Not valid arriving into London before 10am" restriction for cross-London journeys, but not updated the (public) restriction text to match.

Being cynical, I'd suggest another TOC may have asked them to look at it because it was undercutting their peak fares into London, but the "guilty" party has been masked by the way it's been implemented.

The Network Area rules will always lead to inconsistencies ; the other companies need to lump it as there is simply no avoiding that.

We need to get away from this idea that a longer distance journey should increase in price because a particular company wants to charge a huge premium (often much higher - even allowing for high rates of rail fare inflation - than BR would have charged) and is unhappy at being undercut.

Pricing managers need to hold firm; in changing the electronic restrictions at the whim of other companies, this risks putting the companies in hot water, as it may potentially be interpreted as collusion.

Given the railway may not be immune to class action claims (as was perhaps previously thought by some involved in railway ticketing pricing) , great care needs to be taken.

 

[JonathanH]

Does the 'Network Area rule' actually apply to tickets which a) aren't priced by what we might call a 'former Intercity operator', and b) which didn't exist in 1994?

 

[yorkie]

I don't think anyone really knows for sure all the intricacies.

But even so, if any operator asks another operator to make their tickets more restrictive, then in my opinion that should be seen as collusion, so should not be taking place, regardless of whether the fare setter could change the rules off their own bat.

 

[Adam Williams]

If you go on the forum's site and specify change at: ZFD and via: HWY, this will force a change at Paddington and a via point of High Wycombe. This then offers the ticket you want, for example departing at 0821. (It may not need those via points, I just did it straight away to test it).

Direct link: https://tickets.railforums.co.uk/re...005770C,7030540P&adv:ib:Via=7005770C,7030540P

(Click flexible)

 

[Haywain]

The Network Area rules will always lead to inconsistencies ; the other companies need to lump it as there is simply no avoiding that.

I have to say that I find the gradual erosion of the Network Area rule over recent years very concerning, as it is causing dramatic price increases or very restricted journey opportunities for those of us who live within that area. For the journey the OP is looking at it effectively means the journey has to be made almost 3 hours later than should be possible.

 

[yorkie]

I have to say that I find the gradual erosion of the Network Area rule over recent years very concerning, as it is causing dramatic price increases or very restricted journey opportunities for those of us who live within that area. For the journey the OP is looking at it effectively means the journey has to be made almost 3 hours later than should be possible.

I completely agree. I remember reading one of the old PTU (pricing & ticketing updates) issued back in 2010 by the pricing manager of East Coast which made this point:

Bath to Newcastle Super Off Peak Question

Afternoon RailUk Forumers I'm currently enjoying a journey home after a long week away with work. When I travel with work, I book my tickets for me through a 3rd party travel company. I chose tickets to leave Newcastle on the 07:05 on Monday morning to travel to Bath via London. The return...

www.railforums.co.uk

...If restrictions applied on both the Great
Western/NXEA part of the journey and the East
Coast Main Line, then many long distance
journeys would be quite impractical in one day.
This agreement exists to make those journeys
possible....

(although that was referring to the slightly different principle where both origin and destination are outwith the area, and travel is via London, but the same basic principle applies)

 

[CyrusWuff]

Pricing managers need to hold firm; in changing the electronic restrictions at the whim of other companies, this risks putting the companies in hot water, as it may potentially be interpreted as collusion.

It can, of course, also work the other way round, for example where Company A retimes a train where some journeys fall under a restriction set by Company B.

Clearly, pricing managers don't have time to undertake a detailed analysis of every timetable change, so a request from Company A to consider "reviewing" said restricted times should result in a positive outcome for passengers, whilst still technically being collusion.

As an aside, Chiltern's Super Off-Peaks are a little bit unusual - compared to the likes of LNER, EMR, and GWR, as they apply to/from Kings Sutton (incidentally the only Chiltern-served station in Northamptonshire) and Banbury, which are both within the Network Area.

 

[yorkie]

It can, of course, also work the other way round, for example where Company A retimes a train where some journeys fall under a restriction set by Company B.

Clearly, pricing managers don't have time to undertake a detailed analysis of every timetable change, so a request from Company A to consider "reviewing" said restricted times should result in a positive outcome for passengers, whilst still technically being collusion.#

I'd argue that pointing out a train has been retimed wouldn't count as collusion; the net result of a corresponding change to the restrictions would be to maintain the status quo.

This is very different to a company who wants to charge a higher price for a segment of a longer journey, asking a company who sets a longer distance fare to change the conditions to prevent customers using the cheaper fare, to the detriment of customers.

 

[Hadders]

I have to say that I find the gradual erosion of the Network Area rule over recent years very concerning, as it is causing dramatic price increases or very restricted journey opportunities for those of us who live within that area. For the journey the OP is looking at it effectively means the journey has to be made almost 3 hours later than should be possible.

This has been a costant issue for journeys from Stevenage via London to outside the Network Area, e.g. Stevenage to Manchester via London.

I started a thread on it a few years ago and I seem to remember complaining to both East Coast and Virgin about it (it was in their era iirc), but the answer was basically there isn't anything we can do about it.

This is significant because journey planners were saying that you couldn't depart Stevenage using an Off Peak Return until 09:30 when you are actuallt allowed to depart Stevenage at any time to connect into trains departing Euston after 09:30. This meant passengers were being overcharged, which I suspect os still happening to this day.

A Mixing Deck site demonstrates this well. It shows that the earliest time the Off Peak Return can be used is 09:31 arriving Manchester Piccadilly at 12:44
It is actually valid on the 08:32 departure as this connects into the 09:33 from Euston, but anyone wanting to travel on this itinerary is incorrectly sold an Anytime Return costing £431.

I wonder how many people have been overcharged over the years.....

 

[CyrusWuff]

Just to follow up on this, it seems that Chiltern have updated the validity text to reflect the "unpublished" restrictions...and added a load more stations to boot, which seem to have been taken from Code C4 (Sample use of C4 from BRFares, for the unpublished restrictions: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=COL&dest=IFD&expert=on&flow=1&multi=0&fare=5&tkt=FTC)

Restriction Code PU (flows where the Chiltern leg starts at Marylebone on the outward journey) and PV (flows where Marylebone is the destination of the Chiltern leg on the outward journey.)

Northbound Travel​	Southbound Travel​
Not valid on trains timed to depart London Marylebone or London Paddington after 04:29 and before 08:30, or after 16:00 and before 19:00. Not valid on trains timed to depart Reading after 04:29 and before 09:30, or after 16:30 and before 19:00. For journeys via London, not valid on trains timed to arrive at any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia after 04:29 and before 10:00.	Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Marylebone or London Paddington after 04:29 and before 11:30. Not valid on trains timed to arrive at Reading after 04:29 and before 11:00.

Added text is highlighted in bold.

 

[Watershed]

Just to follow up on this, it seems that Chiltern have updated the validity text to reflect the "unpublished" restrictions...and added a load more stations to boot, which seem to have been taken from Code C4 (Sample use of C4 from BRFares, for the unpublished restrictions: https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=COL&dest=IFD&expert=on&flow=1&multi=0&fare=5&tkt=FTC)

Restriction Code PU (flows where the Chiltern leg starts at Marylebone on the outward journey) and PV (flows where Marylebone is the destination of the Chiltern leg on the outward journey.)

Northbound Travel​	Southbound Travel​
Not valid on trains timed to depart London Marylebone or London Paddington after 04:29 and before 08:30, or after 16:00 and before 19:00. Not valid on trains timed to depart Reading after 04:29 and before 09:30, or after 16:30 and before 19:00. For journeys via London, not valid on trains timed to arrive at any London Terminal, Farringdon, or Kensington Olympia after 04:29 and before 10:00.	Not valid on trains timed to arrive at London Marylebone or London Paddington after 04:29 and before 11:30. Not valid on trains timed to arrive at Reading after 04:29 and before 11:00.

Added text is highlighted in bold.

I guess this was all rather a moot point, as the electronic time restrictions already meant that people weren't being offered itineraries for such services, and there may well have been instances of people being wrongly denied entry or exit at non-Chiltern barriers.

With the overwhelming majority of tickets now being sold via a medium that involves an itinerary being generated (either online, through an app or at an itinerary-based TVM), the "problem" had already effectively been "fixed". Of course, this is all symbolic of the "shoot first, think later" approach that the TOCs have to fixing perceived anomalies.

I'm disappointed, though hardly surprised, that Chiltern has kowtowed to A. N. Other TOC (I think we can guess which one!) by implementing these restrictions. These tickets have existed like this for years, probably over a decade, yet it's only now that Chiltern have seen fit to introduce these restrictions.

Unfortunately, this is the way that the industry is moving - ever more anti-passenger. It'll be a cold day in hell when a change that's positive for passengers gets introduced

 

[Hadders]

This really is quite disgraceful state of affairs. Chiltern are happy for a passenger to travel on the substantive journey from Marylebone from 08:30 but they have now imposed restrictions on connecting journeys preventing arrival into London before 10:00. Once you add cross-London connection time into the equation it effectively means departure from Marylebone is not allowed until 11:00

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'm disappointed, though hardly surprised, that Chiltern has kowtowed to A. N. Other TOC (I think we can guess which one!) by implementing these restrictions. These tickets have existed like this for years, probably over a decade, yet it's only now that Chiltern have seen fit to introduce these restrictions.

Quite...Doesn't take a lot of detective work to identify the likely party. You just have to look for flows to London where the Anytime (Day) Return is more expensive than the previously effectively unrestricted Chiltern Super Off-Peak to Banbury (or Leamington Spa to bring the Network Area rule into play) via London/High Wycombe.

 

[Haywain]

Shocking behaviour by Chiltern no matter who has put them up to this. It has, at a stroke, removed much of their competitive advantage over other TOCs.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I would suggest that a less nuclear option would have been for Chiltern to remove cross-London Super Off-Peak tickets to/from Kings Sutton and Banbury, whilst retaining the original restrictions. That way the "Network Area rule" would undeniably apply, and they'd be in a stronger position to tell A.N. Other TOC to go away.