Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

[Scotrail88]

Firstbus buying new vehicles then transferring them to another opco a year or two later is far from normal.

With the funding coming from both Scottish and Uk governments alongside local authorities being involved then it’s unsurprising things are moving fast.

McGills in Glasgow bought replacement Citaros for Ser 38 then moved to EV due to funding.

Cascading internally and to other OpCos is going to be the norm given this funding.

Sure GoAhead Oxford will be the same once they get the new EV fleet in the coming months

 

[PG]

Cascading internally and to other OpCos is going to be the norm given this funding.

Yes. The increasing uptake of electric buses means the resale value of diesel buses will plummet so cascading within a group makes sense.

 

[bunty0657]

Governments will not continue to part-fund zero-emission buses and their associated infrastructure forever, and a time will come (relatively soon, one would think) where such money will either cease entirely, or become more focused on specific areas of the bus and coach industry. First Bus and every other large bus operator will be aware of that, so they may as well take what is there when it is offered if they have sufficient financial muscle to put what is needed alongside the government's shilling. That National Express West Midlands have ordered 300 electric buses seemingly without any public funding will only hasten that shift/end.

There seems to be some uncertainty whether this award to ZEBRA bids involving First includes the money that was first allocated to Milton Keynes but never taken up, or if it is all 'new' funding.

 

[Volvodart]

It was said a further announcement would be made about this funding in the Route One article below:-

https://www.route-one.net/news/first-bus-orders-117-more-wrightbus-battery-electrics/

However, those figures include a 56-bus project in Milton Keynes that was abandoned. It is understood that the £16.6 million allocated to Milton Keynes has been offered to other successful ZEBRA bidders, with a decision on the recipient(s) said to be due around now.

 

[Snex]

Yes. The increasing uptake of electric buses means the resale value of diesel buses will plummet so cascading within a group makes sense.

Surely the price will increase since there will be fewer diesel buses going around for the independent operators to purchase? They won't be getting any subsidises anytime soon to be fitting electric charging points like the big operators with the added issue of no diesels coming out of London since no-one will touch the Hybrids with a barge pole.

It's what happened with coaches when the DDA regulations came in.

 

[Snow1964]

Surely the price will increase since there will be fewer diesel buses going around for the independent operators to purchase? They won't be getting any subsidises anytime soon to be fitting electric charging points like the big operators with the added issue of no diesels coming out of London since no-one will touch the Hybrids with a barge pole.

I am assuming the reason Stagecoach ordered 200 diesel buses early this year, was so they have something to cascade to lesser routes through to mid 2030s, and not purely so they could replace a few aging buses in locations that probably could have converted one or two routes to electric. I suspect ADL also had capacity whilst it ramps up electric bus production, so price worked.

There are still diesel double decks coming out of London, there were 2004 at 31st March 2022 (per TfL annual fleet audit), probably down to about 1600 now, and based on tender awards and pace of delivery of electric buses, will be about 1300 remaining by end of 2023. So probably still be London spec buses diesel double decks available until 2025

However in London some hybrids are also at end of London life, the oldest dating from 2009, although numbers introduced were low before 2012. Some of the early ones seem to be getting parted out to keep others going so not really appearing on secondhand market yet, probably another 2 years before lots of hybrids hit the market.

Zebra (and Scottish & Northern Ireland funding) is introducing many electric buses, and these are of course cascading buses around the country. So bigger question for me is how much longer will diesel buses still be made.

 

[CBlue]

Firstbus buying new vehicles then transferring them to another opco a year or two later is far from normal.

Almost 20 years ago First Northampton bought a new fleet of Wright B7s for their depot based in the town. Within a few years some of that fleet had been transferred to other depots - stock moves like this happen all the time as requirements can sometimes change overnight.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

I am assuming the reason Stagecoach ordered 200 diesel buses early this year, was so they have something to cascade to lesser routes through to mid 2030s, and not purely so they could replace a few aging buses in locations that probably could have converted one or two routes to electric. I suspect ADL also had capacity whilst it ramps up electric bus production, so price worked.

There are still diesel double decks coming out of London, there were 2004 at 31st March 2022 (per TfL annual fleet audit), probably down to about 1600 now, and based on tender awards and pace of delivery of electric buses, will be about 1300 remaining by end of 2023. So probably still be London spec buses diesel double decks available until 2025

However in London some hybrids are also at end of London life, the oldest dating from 2009, although numbers introduced were low before 2012. Some of the early ones seem to be getting parted out to keep others going so not really appearing on secondhand market yet, probably another 2 years before lots of hybrids hit the market.

Zebra (and Scottish & Northern Ireland funding) is introducing many electric buses, and these are of course cascading buses around the country. So bigger question for me is how much longer will diesel buses still be made.

ADL don't build the diesel engined chassis's in house any more. Unless they had a gap in the bodybuilding programme there would be no reason to offer any discounts.

 

[Snow1964]

ADL don't build the diesel engined chassis's in house any more. Unless they had a gap in the bodybuilding programme there would be no reason to offer any discounts.

That's what I think has happened, there was a statement in NFI (parent companies) regulatory or financial updates (which I can't find quickly) to the effect that volume of buses is being held back due to lack of electric chassis during transition to EV. Which rather implies there is spare bodybuilding capacity.

 

[37114]

ADL don't build the diesel engined chassis's in house any more. Unless they had a gap in the bodybuilding programme there would be no reason to offer any discounts.

Out of curiosity, who is building the chassis for the Stagecoach orders? I know they ceased production in Guilford but I thought the plan was for the chassis production to move to Falkirk?

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Out of curiosity, who is building the chassis for the Stagecoach orders? I know they ceased production in Guilford but I thought the plan was for the chassis production to move to Falkirk?

MI Vehicle Integration at Leyland.

 

[Surreyman]

MIVI at Preston.

Presumably the same for Go - South Coast?
Is it definitely confirmed that ADL are not building E400 diesel chassis in their Falkirk/Scarborough plants?

 

[Snex]

I am assuming the reason Stagecoach ordered 200 diesel buses early this year, was so they have something to cascade to lesser routes through to mid 2030s, and not purely so they could replace a few aging buses in locations that probably could have converted one or two routes to electric. I suspect ADL also had capacity whilst it ramps up electric bus production, so price worked.

There are still diesel double decks coming out of London, there were 2004 at 31st March 2022 (per TfL annual fleet audit), probably down to about 1600 now, and based on tender awards and pace of delivery of electric buses, will be about 1300 remaining by end of 2023. So probably still be London spec buses diesel double decks available until 2025

However in London some hybrids are also at end of London life, the oldest dating from 2009, although numbers introduced were low before 2012. Some of the early ones seem to be getting parted out to keep others going so not really appearing on secondhand market yet, probably another 2 years before lots of hybrids hit the market.

Zebra (and Scottish & Northern Ireland funding) is introducing many electric buses, and these are of course cascading buses around the country. So bigger question for me is how much longer will diesel buses still be made.

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if it's more to do with price. Electric buses are more expensive and according to someone high up on another forum at Go North East, a very reliable source, are currently more expensive to run as well.

Have there actually been any electric buses bought yet without any form of funding or they have no choice to buy them ie. London contracts? I'm struggling to think of any.

There's also the problem that electric buses won't work on longer routes because of range issues so there'll always been some demand. Personally I have a feeling these will be replaced by Hydrogen though long term.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Presumably the same for Go - South Coast?
Is it definitely confirmed that ADL are not building E400 diesel chassis in their Falkirk/Scarborough plants?

I don't know about Scarborough but I'm pretty sure that Falkirk is not being used for this purpose. The Berlin order is definitely being built at MIVI and then going to Scarborough for bodying.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Mar 2023 ==

To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if it's more to do with price. Electric buses are more expensive and according to someone high up on another forum at Go North East, a very reliable source, are currently more expensive to run as well.

Have there actually been any electric buses bought yet without any form of funding or they have no choice to buy them ie. London contracts? I'm struggling to think of any.

There's also the problem that electric buses won't work on longer routes because of range issues so there'll always been some demand. Personally I have a feeling these will be replaced by Hydrogen though long term.

Hydrogen is definitely the way forward but it takes an enormous amount of electricity to make the stuff. I genuinely don't think we have the generating capacity in the UK to supply the level of electricity needed for this. Certainly not at the moment.

 

[37114]

MI Vehicle Integration at Leyland.

Thanks, just had a look at their website and there are a number of pictures of E200 and E400 chassis in build.

 

[PG]

MI Vehicle Integration at Leyland.

Am I the only one to see the irony?...

 

[fgwrich]

Am I the only one to see the irony?...

No, I thought that too

It is odd though that they've chosen to close their own facility and outsource the chassis manufacturing to another company though.

 

[Tom Gallacher]

No, I thought that too

It is odd though that they've chosen to close their own facility and outsource the chassis manufacturing to another company though.

They've been using them for a good few years now, going back to the pre MMC days.

 

[MotCO]

I'm still unconvinced that dumping this business and producing their own integral vehicles was a good move by the likes of Wright and Switch/Optare/East Lancs. The MetroDecker in particular has flopped.

So what is in build on the Optare/Switch assembly lines? I've seen a few Solos delivered to operators mentioned in Buses, but nothing substantial.

 

[37114]

No, I thought that too

It is odd though that they've chosen to close their own facility and outsource the chassis manufacturing to another company though.

I guess if they needed the factory production space for their own electric product then it makes sense to get someone else to make the last few diesel chassis. To be fair car manufacturers do the same, the Jaguar E pace is made by Magna in Graz, Austria

 

[Tom Gallacher]

Am I the only one to see the irony?...

I guess if they needed the factory production space for their own electric product then it makes sense to get someone else to make the last few diesel chassis. To be fair car manufacturers do the same, the Jaguar E pace is made by Magna in Graz, Austria

They were using MIVI alongside the production line at Guildford for a considerable time before the decision to close Guildford was made.

 

[GusB]

Volvo is to cease building bus bodywork in Europe, focussing on chassis production only.

Bus & Coach Buyer

The bus & coach industry's longest running free title

www.busandcoachbuyer.com

oss-making European business expected to be turned around with restructuring plan
Volvo Buses is to close its bodybuilding factory in Wroclaw, Poland, during the first quarter of 2024.

The news came as the Swedish manufacturer announced it is changing its business model in Europe, focusing on chassis production. It plans to work with external bodybuilders to offer a range of city and intercity buses and coaches in the continent.

Anna Westerberg, President of Volvo Buses, said: “Our business in Europe has been loss-making for years. With this business model, that we already today apply successfully in many markets, we will improve profitability and secure our long-term competitiveness.”

The decision will impact approximately 1,600 positions at Volvo Buses, whereof around 1,500 are based in Wroclaw.

Volvo Buses believes the change will give it a leaner structure, improved flexibility and the ability to better meet market requirements and customer demands. Implementation of the new business model is expected to negatively impact revenues in Europe temporarily during the transition period in 2024 and 2025. Once completed, the move to the new business model is expected to make the European bus operation profitable.

Orders placed for complete buses and coaches in Europe will be delivered from the Wroclaw plant according to plan. Volvo Buses will continue to give full service and support to the existing fleet as well as to the new offering.

Volvo Buses’ premises in Wroclaw will be divested to Vargas Holding, who will re-purpose and gradually grow the production facility. The production will start in 2024 and the plan is for it to expand in the years to follow. The Lol includes Vargas Holding’s aim to offer employment to parts of the Volvo employees, some as early as the third quarter of 2023.

 

[scosutsut]

Volvo is to cease building bus bodywork in Europe, focussing on chassis production only.

Bus & Coach Buyer

The bus & coach industry's longest running free title

www.busandcoachbuyer.com

I feel for those affected by the redundancies.

It does feel like the company moving back to their core business model. The Volvo bodied products have never really taken hold, in the UK at least. I suspect their increasingly successful relationship with MCV in the bus sector will have had a bearing on this too, and coaches have predominantly remained built on throughout the years.

 

[MotCO]

It seems a slightly strange move when, certainly, the major UK bus manufacturers are building whole buses, rather than bodying other manufacturers' chassis. AD, Wright, and Switch mostly build whole buses (but AD in the recent past has bodied Volvo chassis).

 

[K4016td]

I feel it's all due to competition form electric integrals from the far east - BYD, Yutong and of course the workforce costs which are getting higher, even in Poland compared to China. Electric vehicles need a lot more resources, planning which all costs money and it looks like it is only efficient when these are mass produced, and I don't mean thousand buses a year, but close to 40-50k. Looks like the electric bus building business is not really anymore about chucking together some chassis, some bodywork and some engine, but needs more careful planning and investments to make sure it all works flawlessly. As far as I can remember, this was one of of the reasons another Polish based bus builder, Solaris was sold to Spanish CAF as the relatively small company could not support such research and investment.

 

[Mikey C]

Slightly surprised the Wroclaw plant wasn't bought by a bodybuilder, rather than an investment company. Interesting that the Volvo bus operations in Europe are struggling financially, the loss of UK sales due to their lateness in producing an electric chassis must have hurt them.

It seems a slightly strange move when, certainly, the major UK bus manufacturers are building whole buses, rather than bodying other manufacturers' chassis. AD, Wright, and Switch mostly build whole buses (but AD in the recent past has bodied Volvo chassis).

Wrights and Optare/Switch made a big deal about the benefits of producing integral vehicles, so yes it's a bit curious.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Slightly surprised the Wroclaw plant wasn't bought by a bodybuilder, rather than an investment company. Interesting that the Volvo bus operations in Europe are struggling financially, the loss of UK sales due to their lateness in producing an electric chassis must have hurt them.

Volvo did actually have an electric bus option available in the UK market before ADL and others did but presumably it was extremely expensive, even more so back then, not to mention there was lack of government funding when electric buses were first introduced.

Wrights and Optare/Switch made a big deal about the benefits of producing integral vehicles, so yes it's a bit curious.

The simple answer? It is more cost effective and profit improving to produce your own chasssis & bodywork.

Manufacturing can be simplified if integral vehicles are designed around their bodywork.

However, electric vehicles aside, the MCV Evora with B8 diesel power seems to have done alright in the UK despite small numbers in comparison to the lightweight ADL single products. I’m surprised the 10.8m model of the Evora has been purchased by quite a few as well when the likes of the Enviro 200 MMC can be had at 10.8m.

I guess comfort and refinement of such models does matter depending on the routes it’s used on by several operators.

Naturally Volvo, Scania or European products are going to be more expensive, however, arguably they seems to be of a higher quality, particularly from a refinement and comfort point of view, I guess that many of these much larger companies have the capital to further their developement teams.

I am quite surprised that Volvo has not tried a lighter weight chassis with a D5K engine or even providing a B5RLE chassis for smaller buses such as the 10.8m Evoras.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Volvo did actually have an electric bus option available in the UK market before ADL and others did but presumably it was extremely expensive, even more so back then, not to mention there was lack of government funding when electric buses were first introduced.


The simple answer? It is more cost effective and profit improving to produce your own chasssis & bodywork.

Manufacturing can be simplified if integral vehicles are designed around their bodywork.

However, electric vehicles aside, the MCV Evora with B8 diesel power seems to have done alright in the UK despite small numbers in comparison to the lightweight ADL single products. I’m surprised the 10.8m model of the Evora has been purchased by quite a few as well when the likes of the Enviro 200 MMC can be had at 10.8m.

I guess comfort and refinement of such models does matter depending on the routes it’s used on by several operators.

Naturally Volvo, Scania or European products are going to be more expensive, however, arguably they seems to be of a higher quality, particularly from a refinement and comfort point of view, I guess that many of these much larger companies have the capital to further their developement teams.

I am quite surprised that Volvo has not tried a lighter weight chassis with a D5K engine or even providing a B5RLE chassis for smaller buses such as the 10.8m Evoras.

There's actually far more Evoras than people realise, Stagecoach Highlands alone will have a fleet of 57 Evoras by the end of this year, I'd have to double check but i suspect the Evora is likely outselling the diesel E200MMC at present. It's helped by the fact that the MCV body is sold at a very competitive price (much cheaper than the Wright Eclipse 3 was despite being better built) and operator feedback has been positive, a lot of independents have chosen Evoras for that reason. Of course having three different lengths also means it can cover a broader market.

 

[aswilliamsuk]

I can't remember the exact details, but I recall that the B8RLE/Evora also qualifies for Low Emission Bus Status, which gains an enhanced BSOG payment - I suspect that has something to do with why it is so popular

 

[Man of Kent]

I can't remember the exact details, but I recall that the B8RLE/Evora also qualifies for Low Emission Bus Status, which gains an enhanced BSOG payment - I suspect that has something to do with why it is so popular

The E200MMC also qualifies for this status.