RA instruction on platform starting signals

[The Barlow Boy]

Also to note that giving the Close Doors to the Driver/Guard while displaying a prohibitive signal can result in the member of staff being suspended from dispatch duties while waiting a investigation into the incident which has happened before once as I believe it counts as a dispatch against a prohibitive signal incident.

WHAT! Operating the CD indicator whilst a starting signal is at danger is a disciplinary offence? Have the lunatics taken over the asylum?

 

[Mojo]

I noticed at Marylebone with the WSMR services and also the Chiltern LHCS services the dispatcher keys the CD indicator and then proceeds to give the station work complete signal to the guard. I've seen this elsewhere too (it might have been Kings + with GC services but I'm not sure).

Is there a specific reason for doing this? Surely it's unnecessary duplication; especially given the driver doesn't operate the doors in both cases?

 

[Aictos]

WHAT! Operating the CD indicator whilst a starting signal is at danger is a disciplinary offence? Have the lunatics taken over the asylum?

Not really as it counts as starting the dispatch procedure against a prohibitive signal which is a no no besides the train isn't likely to be going anywhere for a while so why close the doors?

 

[Firestarter]

The main aspect could be off yet the platform supervisor controls the RA sign.

No the RA is interlocked with the signal. If the signal is red the RA indicator will not illuminate.[/

The RA indicator will illuminate with a red signal if the trains is being shunted and the shunt signals are showing.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Not really as it counts as starting the dispatch procedure against a prohibitive signal which is a no no besides the train isn't likely to be going anywhere for a while so why close the doors?

Now I know I'm getting old. Closing the doors cannot be any way counted as part of the dispatch procedure, it's simply closing the doors. What about closing the doors on an ECS set on an adjacent platform to stop punters getting on the wrong train 20" minutes before the ECS is due to depart? That's what is done at Victoria, I've seen it. Why close them anyway on a service train? Scenario. The 10.25 departure. It's 10.24 and a message is received that the train will be delayed for "a couple of minutes" for (whatever). Close the doors and then as soon as the road clears the train can go, minimising any further delay caused by punters who've wandered off the train and are now scrambling to get back on. I've seen that too.

 

[Tomnick]

I'm sure - from my own observations - they regularly get the doors closed on Up trains at London Bridge before the signal clears. Seems sensible to me, especially if it's not (or shouldn't be) possible to give RA until the signal has cleared.

 

[Safety365]

I'm sure - from my own observations - they regularly get the doors closed on Up trains at London Bridge before the signal clears. Seems sensible to me, especially if it's not (or shouldn't be) possible to give RA until the signal has cleared.

Tip to close doors before a proceed aspect is displayed on the signal?? I hope not. Doors of 375/377 Electrostar stock close automatically around 15seconds after the last object/passenger disrupts the infrared beam in the doorway. The doors may be closed, but they are still able to be opened again.

Watch the Orange 'Bodyside Indicator Lights' (BILs) along the length of the train. When the train stops and the doors are released these illuminate to show that interlock has been lost. When the guard/driver is given the CD or tip (by use of a hand lamp, one arm raised above the head or a raised dispatch bat) to close the doors, the BILs on each individual coach extinguish as the doors of that coach are closed.

In areas of DOO (Driver Only Operation) the dispatch staff will operate the RA when all doors are closed and BILs extinguished and they are certain it is safe to allow the train to move. Where a guard/TM/conductor (whatever you want to call us this week) is working the train, a second 'tip' will be given to him/her when only his local door (and BIL) remain open(illuminated). RA indicators are NOT given to trains that are being worked with a guard (in the area in which I work).

That is how it works with my TOC at-least.

Operating the door close button or giving 1-2 on the bell/buzzer when the platform signal is at danger is a big no-no.

I think you've either being observing the wrong signal or the doors have been closing automatically

 

[Aictos]

Preventing people boarding a ECS is done in my area by using the local door button at the end of the coaches which makes it impossible for anyone to try to use the local passenger door controls.

 

[O L Leigh]

Yup. Walk back checking each coach is empty and then closing them up individually, though using the "porter buttons" to take the local buttons out of circuit as you go preventing anyone boarding behind you. I'd never expect to be given a CD to shut up a set of empties and probably wouldn't take it even it I was.

O L Leigh

 

[Aictos]

Although 165s and 166s are slightly different in that they require a key to secure each coach rather then a button like most trains, are there any other trains which require a key to locally secure down each coach?

 

[Mojo]

I've noticed that rather unusually, the orange lights on the Voyagers still extinguish in the centre cars when the doors are closed BUT where the passenger door controls are still active.

With regards to not closing the doors before the signal has come off, I was always told this was because it prevents the driver taking power when the signal is still set to danger and further helps mitigate against a Spad. Might just have been one of those answers the trainer comes up with when they don't know the answer to a question though

Although 165s and 166s are slightly different in that they require a key to secure each coach rather then a button like most trains, are there any other trains which require a key to locally secure down each coach?

Is this only the FGW units or have Chiltern modified their 165s too? At least on Chiltern it used to be the case that the porter buttons were not key operated.

 

[strange6]

RA indicators are NOT given to trains that are being worked with a guard (in the area in which I work).

That is how it works with my TOC at-least.

That's why I put this thread up in the first place. It seems a bitdaft to me operatng them at at Man Vic when 99.9 percent of the trains are guard / platform supervisor monitored

 

[pendolino]

Although 165s and 166s are slightly different in that they require a key to secure each coach rather then a button like most trains, are there any other trains which require a key to locally secure down each coach?

On 377s a carriage key is needed to close doors locally. Which makes sense really, otherwise anyone could press the local door close button (I've seen school kids do this on a 455).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Now I know I'm getting old. Closing the doors cannot be any way counted as part of the dispatch procedure, it's simply closing the doors. What about closing the doors on an ECS set on an adjacent platform to stop punters getting on the wrong train 20" minutes before the ECS is due to depart? That's what is done at Victoria, I've seen it. Why close them anyway on a service train? Scenario. The 10.25 departure. It's 10.24 and a message is received that the train will be delayed for "a couple of minutes" for (whatever). Close the doors and then as soon as the road clears the train can go, minimising any further delay caused by punters who've wandered off the train and are now scrambling to get back on. I've seen that too.

Giving a driver the tip on a red signal is a SASSPAD waiting to happen. It HAS happened in the past. Dispatcher A gives the tip to the driver who closes the doors; dispatcher B sees the BIL lights go out, assumes the signal is off (because why would Dispatcher A give the driver the tip if it wasn't?), gives the driver a green light/flag; driver takes power as he assumes the signal is off (because why would Dispatcher B give him a green flag/light if it wasn't?) and SPADs the signal.

Training and dispatch procedures for both drivers and platform staff have to take into account that we're all human, we're all fallible and it only takes the slightest distraction (e.g., a passenger asking for information as the dispatch procedure begins) for something to go wrong. So the dispatch procedure is designed to mitigate this risk as much as possible; hence doors are not closed on a red.

 

[Zoe]

I thought only the person in charge of the platform was supposed to give any tips to the driver/guard?

 

[pendolino]

Well yes, maybe the scenario I described was typed out hastily to make the point that once the despatch procedure starts, the rest tends to just follow on - humans being very easily conditioned to do the same thing again and again.

And if the despatch procedure starts on a red, then it could potentially result in a SASSPAD.

edit: more realistically, it would probably be 'Dispatcher A gives the tip to Dispatcher B who gives the driver the tip to close the doors'

 

[Fred26]

Now I know I'm getting old. Closing the doors cannot be any way counted as part of the dispatch procedure, it's simply closing the doors. What about closing the doors on an ECS set on an adjacent platform to stop punters getting on the wrong train 20" minutes before the ECS is due to depart? That's what is done at Victoria, I've seen it. Why close them anyway on a service train? Scenario. The 10.25 departure. It's 10.24 and a message is received that the train will be delayed for "a couple of minutes" for (whatever). Close the doors and then as soon as the road clears the train can go, minimising any further delay caused by punters who've wandered off the train and are now scrambling to get back on. I've seen that too.

I disagree. No doors close until the road is set. That way if late comers turn up they can still board and not ask why they can't board 'they're train' despite it still being in the platform and not moving. Okay, the train is late, but it's still going where they want to go and it will save the argument if they're just allowed to board. Ergo, no CD until the aspect is set to proceed. I've never had a problem with it, because most people turn up on time for the train and therefore are already aboard. I've seen the reverse problem - where someone has given CD on a red and then been taken off dispatch...

 

[Zoe]

Could the guard close/lock the doors at their own discression though even when the signal is not showing a proceed aspect? In theory they could ask the driver to draw forward to the signal.

 

[pendolino]

Could the guard close/lock the doors at their own discression though even when the signal is not showing a proceed aspect? In theory they could ask the driver to draw forward to the signal.

If a guard asked me to do that, I'd tell him where to get off (at that same station, and could he please send the cover man to do his job for him but properly?).

In theory, certainly in my TOC, to pull up to a red signal in that situation, the driver would need to contact the signaller - (s)he couldn't do it on the guard's authority.

 

[TomJ93]

At Coventry the 390s have guards and there is always platform staff dispatching the train, yet the RA is still used.

 

[Aictos]

Could the guard close/lock the doors at their own discression though even when the signal is not showing a proceed aspect? In theory they could ask the driver to draw forward to the signal.

Yes they can as long as they follow the rulebook.

6.8 Moving a train before station work is complete

If it is necessary to move a train before station work is complete, you must make sure all the doors are closed before instructing the driver to make any movement.

Before any movement is made towards a signal that is at danger, one of you must get the signaller’s permission. You must tell the signaller when the movement has been completed.

6.9 Moving a train on a platform line where permissive platform working
is authorised

Permissive platform working allows more than one train at a time to be on the same platform line.

You must not make any movement, other than for coupling or uncoupling, once the train has come to a stand unless:

• a signal is cleared for the movement, or
• the movement is authorised by the signaller.
If the movement is made on the authority of the signaller you must tell the signaller when the movement has been completed.

I disagree. No doors close until the road is set. That way if late comers turn up they can still board and not ask why they can't board 'they're train' despite it still being in the platform and not moving. Okay, the train is late, but it's still going where they want to go and it will save the argument if they're just allowed to board. Ergo, no CD until the aspect is set to proceed. I've never had a problem with it, because most people turn up on time for the train and therefore are already aboard. I've seen the reverse problem - where someone has given CD on a red and then been taken off dispatch...

I quite agree which is why I take the same approach, if the train isn't going for a while I also let passengers on the train to go onto the platform and stretch their legs.

 

[Fred26]

Yes they can as long as they follow the rulebook.

6.8 Moving a train before station work is complete

If it is necessary to move a train before station work is complete, you must make sure all the doors are closed before instructing the driver to make any movement.

Before any movement is made towards a signal that is at danger, one of you must get the signaller’s permission. You must tell the signaller when the movement has been completed.

6.9 Moving a train on a platform line where permissive platform working
is authorised

Permissive platform working allows more than one train at a time to be on the same platform line.

You must not make any movement, other than for coupling or uncoupling, once the train has come to a stand unless:

• a signal is cleared for the movement, or
• the movement is authorised by the signaller.
If the movement is made on the authority of the signaller you must tell the signaller when the movement has been completed.



I quite agree which is why I take the same approach, if the train isn't going for a while I also let passengers on the train to go onto the platform and stretch their legs.

Indeed. When I was travelling back from Wick in November, we were held at a station somewhere whilst waiting for a northbound train to pass. The guard announced that people could go for a cigarette and so I nipped out to take some photos. It's a long journey and it was nice to walk around for a bit.

 

[Mojo]

I thought only the person in charge of the platform was supposed to give any tips to the driver/guard?

What about where the platform is on a curve, the train is long and thus there are multiple staff? I've never seen the person in charge of platform give both station work complete signals to the guard and run up the front to give the ready to start signal to the driver.

 

[barrykas]

I noticed at Marylebone with the WSMR services and also the Chiltern LHCS services the dispatcher keys the CD indicator and then proceeds to give the station work complete signal to the guard. I've seen this elsewhere too (it might have been Kings + with GC services but I'm not sure).

Is there a specific reason for doing this? Surely it's unnecessary duplication; especially given the driver doesn't operate the doors in both cases?

Those were the local instructions (and a source of "robust debate") at Marylebone for dispatch of LHCS, despite the CD not being required before you could give RA.

Having said that, W&S services were occasionally dispatched using the buzzer, such as if they were on Platform 5, where the positioning of a lamppost meant the Driver couldn't see the RA indicator without either standing in the door of the DVT/loco, or stepping onto the platform.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[jon0844]

How serious an 'offence' is it to give the CD and then RA almost straight after without having checked all the lights are out (doors locked) and clear of any obstructions?

I saw this earlier at Finsbury Park (won't say exactly when, who or what platform) and was quite surprised. The staff member was looking forward the whole time and never looked back to check any of the rear 4 carriages.

All the lights went out fine, and quickly, and the train moved off safely - but how would he know? And if something did happen, how would he stop the train once it pulled out?

 

[Matt Taylor]

On the basis of what you have said it sounds like an incident with the potential for some very serious repurcussions, as happened in Huntingdon some years ago:

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2007/report112007.cfm

 

[jon0844]

It was a 321 rather than a 365, so I am not sure it would be so easy to get anything trapped.

But, there can be a few staff members on the same platform at any one time and they can be talking and joking with each other, which does mean there's the potential to not pay 100% attention.

At the same station, different day, they dispatched the train I had just got off (that arrived 3 minutes early) over a minute early. The signal was green, but the train was given the RA about 80 seconds early (and this was recorded on TRUST too - well as one minute before the booked departure).

Usually they blow the whistle about 15-20 seconds before the time (looking at the PIS) and give the CD/RA so the train is moving almost dead on the minute, maybe even a few seconds before. Doing it over for the wrong time suggests not paying attention there too.

 

[TomJ93]

I'll probably get laughed at but what does the whistle mean?

 

[jon0844]

A precursor to the hustle alarm on the train itself.. basically, telling people to hurry up and board as the train is about to go. I'm pretty certain there's no other purpose, or safety implications (besides deafening you when you're standing near them doing it).

 

[scotsman]

A precursor to the hustle alarm on the train itself.. basically, telling people to hurry up and board as the train is about to go. I'm pretty certain there's no other purpose, or safety implications (besides deafening you when you're standing near them doing it).

A whistle is of no significance in terms of the rule book and is not required

 

[Matt Taylor]

It was a 321 rather than a 365, so I am not sure it would be so easy to get anything trapped.

But, there can be a few staff members on the same platform at any one time and they can be talking and joking with each other, which does mean there's the potential to not pay 100% attention.

At the same station, different day, they dispatched the train I had just got off (that arrived 3 minutes early) over a minute early. The signal was green, but the train was given the RA about 80 seconds early (and this was recorded on TRUST too - well as one minute before the booked departure).

Usually they blow the whistle about 15-20 seconds before the time (looking at the PIS) and give the CD/RA so the train is moving almost dead on the minute, maybe even a few seconds before. Doing it over for the wrong time suggests not paying attention there too.

Some TOCs have a policy of despatching as soon as the train is ready at stations very close to London Termini, that may be the case at Finsbury Park.