May 2023 changes

[JRT]

It's an odd one because, as has already been said, there are no non-negligible savings to be made. Electric services proceed around the Shipley 'Triangle' in a set pattern, and removing a few Bradford services won't reduce the number of EMUs, drivers or conductors needed to run them.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2023 ==




Indeed - but the 'revised' timetable will still need the same amount of crew!

Two sets go out of service in the morning 0917 & 1021 at Skipton and park up at Broughton Road until early afternoon for the 1434 & 1535 departures!!

 

[AMD]

It's an odd one because, as has already been said, there are no non-negligible savings to be made. Electric services proceed around the Shipley 'Triangle' in a set pattern, and removing a few Bradford services won't reduce the number of EMUs, drivers or conductors needed to run them.

Um, while it's not reducing the number of trains it will change traincrew diagrams, so there will be a net reduction of around two diagrams (each for drivers & conductors) between Leeds and Skipton depots; which is enough to make a difference on a daily basis to rostering.

 

[WizCastro197]

Southern are altering departure times on the East Coastway, and adding 2tph off-peak between Brighton and Eastbourne.

I’m not sure what’s up with SWR

Just to Eastbourne or to Hastings?

 

[PGAT]

Just to Eastbourne or to Hastings?

Just to Eastbourne, including the peaks

 

[dk1]

well yes, but the three through KL/LivSt services have been in timetable/franchise requirement for many years, and in fact one of the many wildly optimistic commitments GA made in 2016 was to run 10car 720s to KL. Admittedly the number of passengers from north of Ely using this service for direct access to the City is now probably nil or near nil.

if we cant have any of the timetable improvements promised in 2016 I suppose we should be grateful to be getting back near what we have had since 2011 on West Anglia - the return of all the peak fast Cambridges (1707/37/1807/37 and 1907) is welcome even if they have picked up Brox stops

105.2 Pursuant to paragraph 105.1 such changes to the infrastructure shall include such infrastructure works at each of Hertford East, Wickford, Manningtree, Kings Lynn, Elsenham, Ware, St Margarets and Enfield Lock Stations as are necessary to enable any Passenger Services comprised of 10 rolling stock vehicles to call at such Stations by no later than 1 September 2018.

10-car 720 stop boards, although covered but now cover hanging off, have appeared at Waterbeach in both directions. I’m just under the impression that anything promised back then has little but probably no value anymore in the brave new railway world.

 

[mm333]

The longest (in terms of distance) service in the country: the 0820 CrossCountry from Aberdeen to Penzance is back to being Monday-Friday instead of being just Saturdays as it is currently.

 

[hexagon789]

The longest (in terms of distance) service in the country: the 0820 CrossCountry from Aberdeen to Penzance is back to being Monday-Friday instead of being just Saturdays as it is currently.

Mentioned way back; still only returns as Plymouth-Edinburgh Mon-Thurs

 

[Sleepy]

So if the 0648 Norwich - Liverpool St. isn't coming back then 0705 will continue to be one to avoid ! 0726 wins my vote for now .......

 

[Jamesrob637]

So roughly how many percent of March 2020 services will run after May, or is it hard to say due to new introductions etc.?

 

[adrock1976]

Replacement- uses the same path but originates from Queen Street.

Being as the former Edinburgh - Oban Summer Sunday service is/was the only passenger train to use the curve between Bishopbriggs and Ashfield, has there been a formal closure process and consultation done at all?

 

[Bantamzen]

Im not at all surprised that services are being cut again Between Bradford Forster Square to Skipton and Ilkley.
I've observed Bradford bound trains at Bingley practically empty,while the Leeds trains always have healthy loadings.

Flows don't all necessarily go in the same direction. Prior to the pandemic (which is when Bradford FS last had "normal" 2tph timetables all year round) travelling to Skipton & Ilkley from Bradford attracted healthy numbers from what I could see, especially in the summer.

Forster Square station itself feels unsafe,especially at night. There are also no toilet facilities,and the lack of any buses to connect with the Interchange,which is considered the main station for Bradford,is a complete joke.

And this should have been rectified in 2021, but it like so much elsewhere became a victim of "Because Covid". However this is in itself not a reason for service cuts.

Let's be honest,if you live close to any Airedale/Wharfedale line station and are spending money on shopping,days out or entertainment Bradford just isn't an attractive option.
It's all very well Bradford council moaning about the service cuts but the council only have themselves to blame as to why people do not visit Bradford.

Again, the flows are not all in the same direction.

I was speaking to one of my ex-colleagues from Skipton earlier today and he said that the real reason why the Ilkley/Skipton-Bradford off-peak services are reverting to hourly in May is because Northern - and Skipton depot in particular - are haemorrhaging drivers like there's no tomorrow at the moment. Let's face it, when LNER and Grand Central are recruiting in Leeds and Bradford, who wants to do endless ten hour shifts with twelve to fourteen trips calling at all stops round the triangles?

Northern have had three years since the start of the pandemic to bake in a plan. But there always seems to be an excuse, yet I'm seeing more crew, presumably as a result of training, on triangle routes.

It's an odd one because, as has already been said, there are no non-negligible savings to be made. Electric services proceed around the Shipley 'Triangle' in a set pattern, and removing a few Bradford services won't reduce the number of EMUs, drivers or conductors needed to run them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2023 ==


Indeed - but the 'revised' timetable will still need the same amount of crew!

That's what I was wondering.

Um, while it's not reducing the number of trains it will change traincrew diagrams, so there will be a net reduction of around two diagrams (each for drivers & conductors) between Leeds and Skipton depots; which is enough to make a difference on a daily basis to rostering.

Is this really the case, its a serious question as I don't know? If so what proportion of saving might this represent from the overall cost of running these services? I'm not expecting exact figures, just a guesstimate would be interesting.

 

[dk1]

So if the 0648 Norwich - Liverpool St. isn't coming back then 0705 will continue to be one to avoid ! 0726 wins my vote for now .......

770 passengers counted on the 07:05 this morning with the 07:26 reported busy too.

 

[Bikeman78]

if we cant have any of the timetable improvements promised in 2016 I suppose we should be grateful to be getting back near what we have had since 2011 on West Anglia - the return of all the peak fast Cambridges (1707/37/1807/37 and 1907) is welcome even if they have picked up Brox stops

I think the Broxbourne stops are to relieve the Hertford trains. The Hertfords will be busier as they are being merged with the current Broxbourne stoppers. Hopefully they will all be 10 cars.

 

[iphone76]

On the Greater Anglia Southminster line the 0736 to Wickford service (2J07) has unofficially been extended to Liverpool Street (as 1J07) for the last week or so, ahead of the official date of May. This reintroduces the previous through train. They did the same with one or two Southend Victoria morning up trains before the December 22 timetable change.

I only wish they would add a few more evening peak trains back to Southend and Southminster from May.

 

[JonathanH]

770 passengers counted on the 07:05 this morning with the 07:26 reported busy too.

Sounds about right then - didn't the railway used to plan passenger loads around 110% of seated capacity?
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...ribution-2a9e78f8-6a56-4c79-8a2c-5ede45f4b737

British Rail
Volume 187: debated on Wednesday 13 March 1991

The Government acknowledge that British Rail has a long way to go in meeting the quality-of-service targets that we have set. My hon. Friend will know that the objectives vary between sectors and time of day. They can be summarised as roughly 90 per cent. of trains arriving within either five or 10 minutes of schedule time, depending on the service sector, 99 per cent. or more of trains running, 95 per cent. of telephone inquiries to be answered within 30 seconds, all carriages to be cleaned inside and out every day, sliding-door trains on Network SouthEast and regional railways to be no more than 135 per cent. loaded, with slam-door stock to be no more than 110 per cent. loaded and no standing for more than 20 minutes except by choice. My hon. Friend might say to me that even 135 per cent. or 110 per cent. loadings are unacceptable. I look forward to the day when no passenger need stand on any British Rail train, but we must be realistic about the loadings of trains serving London surburbs. There are short-journey services into central London that inevitably will be crowded.

I appreciate Colchester is 45 minutes from London.

 

[Watershed]

Sounds about right then - didn't the railway used to plan passenger loads around 110% of seated capacity?
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1991-03-13/debates/2806d036-37ce-47bc-b9e9-4541b79166d0/BritishRail?highlight=110 network south east#contribution-2a9e78f8-6a56-4c79-8a2c-5ede45f4b737


I appreciate Colchester is 45 minutes from London.

As you quote, the intended service standard was for passengers not to have to stand for more than 20 minutes. The only stop within 20 minutes of London is Stratford!

 

[dk1]

As you quote, the intended service standard was for passengers not to have to stand for more than 20 minutes. The only stop within 20 minutes of London is Stratford!

Beat me to it.

 

[hornbyfan99]

Interesting spin on the curtailment of the Kings Lynn train at Ely.

Part of a wider pattern of removing duplications of other operators services. Look at the EMR services that used to run to Leeds, GWR Brighton, SWR Bristol to name a few...

 

[yorksrob]

Sounds about right then - didn't the railway used to plan passenger loads around 110% of seated capacity?
https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commo...ribution-2a9e78f8-6a56-4c79-8a2c-5ede45f4b737


I appreciate Colchester is 45 minutes from London.

It's noticeable that the parliamentary debate is referring to involuntary standing on short service journeys to London being inevitable, rather than cross country InterCity routes.

 

[hornbyfan99]

Can someone tell me the changes for SWR and Southern please?

From looking at RTT, there's an extra return peak time Southern service to Hemel Hempstead. 18:10 service from East Croydon - 19:38 off Hemel.

Oh I wish that service could be extended to Milton Keynes again, I can even remember the time it used to be a Watford Junction - Brighton service!

 

[xotGD]

Part of a wider pattern of removing duplications of other operators services. Look at the EMR services that used to run to Leeds, GWR Brighton, SWR Bristol to name a few...

Duplication, aka "competition".

 

[GoneSouth]

Duplication, aka "competition".

No competition needed or desired if it’s all run by or for DfT.

Unfortunately that great promise of competition never materialised on a route I use regularly from Bristol to Birmingham so was always stuck with astronomical prices and XC’s can’t be arsed attitude

 

[Heathen]

No competition needed or desired if it’s all run by or for DfT.

Unfortunately that great promise of competition never materialised on a route I use regularly from Bristol to Birmingham so was always stuck with astronomical prices and XC’s can’t be arsed attitude

From looking at RTT, there's an extra return peak time Southern service to Hemel Hempstead. 18:10 service from East Croydon - 19:38 off Hemel.

Oh I wish that service could be extended to Milton Keynes again, I can even remember the time it used to be a Watford Junction - Brighton service!

When Connex first took over Southern services the Watford Junction service ran from Brighton to Rugby - a service now long lost.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

When Connex first took over Southern services the Watford Junction service ran from Brighton to Rugby - a service now long lost.

No they’ve never run that entire length.
Initially it was Rugby to Gatwick / Three Bridges then it became Milton Keynes to Brighton.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

It seems like to be the 1807 Marylebone to Stourbridge is. 1707 is terminating at snow hill. weekends it seems to be 2 hopefully be locos still.

It seems to be apparent that no loco hauled sets will be out on weekends, being stabled at Stourbridge instead. Princes Risborough loses its morning loco service, handed over to a unit, too.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

It seems to be apparent that no loco hauled sets will be out on weekends, being stabled at Stourbridge instead. Princes Risborough loses its morning loco service, handed over to a unit, too.

If you’re going by the timing load on RTT the Princes Risborough train uses a cl165 ticking load in both the current and the May 23 timetables.

A timing load doesn’t necessarily mean the traction, it’s means the traction on that service must be able to meet the timing load.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

If you’re going by the timing load on RTT the Princes Risborough train uses a cl165 ticking load in both the current and the May 23 timetables.

A timing load doesn’t necessarily mean the traction, it’s means the traction on that service must be able to meet the timing load.

The diagram that begins with the Risborough service from May is then Gerrards Cross locals rather than the current loco set going onto Birmingham services.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The diagram that begins with the Risborough service from May is then Gerrards Cross locals rather than the current loco set going onto Birmingham services.

Well spotted, sounds like Chiltern’s little bit of pain for May 23.

 

[Stopper]

Unless a huge turnaround in passenger loadings is seen, we won’t see that for some time, possibly ever. The days of business travellers just nipping through to Edinburgh or Glasgow for a meeting are behind us.

Gourock off peak expresses, which have been around ever since the line was electrified in the 1960s, are gone. A handful of Cathcart Circle services reintroduced, and additional calls for Edinburgh-Aberdeen services at Cupar., are other changes in Scotland.

There’s also going to be an additional Glasgow to Oban service on summer Sundays as well.

It will happen eventually. Services are getting busier. Been on a lot of lunchtime services recently they’re fairly well loaded. Not pre-pandemic level during off-peak and certainly not the peaks but it’s improving.

A lot depends on how they want to provide capacity. 8-car running isn’t needed all day off-peak, but the 385s have seemed to remain in that formation 90% of the time since being introduced. During the Class 170 days, services were pretty much all single units (3-car) all day off-peak. It was only at peak time they became 6 car.

 

[Austriantrain]

A lot depends on how they want to provide capacity. 8-car running isn’t needed all day off-peak, but the 385s have seemed to remain in that formation 90% of the time since being introduced. During the Class 170 days, services were pretty much all single units (3-car) all day off-peak. It was only at peak time they became 6 car.

That seems to be an international trend. On the Vienna S-Bahn, we used to have lots of 6-to-3-car „weakenings“ off-peak and on the outer fringes of the network. That has virtually disappeared. High staff costs for the maneuvers required and threats to reliability are said to outweigh increased operating costs (which are probably quite a bit lower for electric traction than for diesel) and maintenance needed.