Project Oval: TfL win DfT contract to expand contactless system to 233 rail stations by May 2024, Railcards coming to contactless payment cards

[matt_world2004]

I think eventually there is going to be an equivalent of the "oyster card" but using tfls contactless technology.this is simpler than developing a technical solution fron scratch for railcards and other concessions

I've already seen staff west of west Drayton wearing dark blue "Oyster gateline passes" so it seems there is some kind of technology that allows gates to be opened west of west Drayton which could probably be applied to consumer passes, season tickets and concessions

You could probably roll-out things like freedom pass capability with the existing system replacing the cards on expiry with new ones compatible with tfls back office technology.,same with staff passes and a rail card could be issued thats nfc enabled and compatible with tfls back office technology

 

[MikeWh]

Contactless fares on the Elizabeth line do not have afternoon peak restrictions going into Paddington from west of Ealing broadway or from Watford to Euston in the evening.

West of West Drayton actually.

 

[matt_world2004]

West of West Drayton actually.

www.ltfares.com appears to say the peak fare is only valid at 06:30-09:30 in the morning and not in evening peak for Ealing Broadway NR to London Paddington NR

 

[MikeWh]

www.ltfares.com appears to say the peak fare is only valid at 06:30-09:30 in the morning and not in evening peak for Ealing Broadway NR to London Paddington NR

Yes it will. Any journey ending in zone 1 will have no afternoon peak unless it started in zone 1 as well.

West Drayton to Stratford will be peak in the afternoon peak whereas Iver to Stratford will be off peak.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Do we know when the initial 53 stations will be confirmed? It'd already 2023 and they were meant to be done by the end of 2022

 

[Hadders]

I got talking to some members of staff at my local station last week, they said contactless cannot come soon enough because they have lots of passengers trying to touch out with contactless cards and are not aware that contcatless isn't valid to Stevenage. It would make sense to extend to Stevenage in phase 1 because it's only four additional stations (Welwyn North, Knebworth, Watton at Stone and Stevenage) and it would make sure that the entirity of the inner-suburban service from Moorgate was covered.

Interestingly the Evening Standard is already spouting nonsense about contactless bringing cheaper fares. Here's their editorial piece from Thursday 23.02.23.

 

[JonathanH]

Interestingly the Evening Standard is already spouting nonsense about contactless bringing cheaper fares. Here's their editorial piece from Thursday 23.02.23.

I think that coincides with the story I quoted from the Standard upthread which contained similar claims about cheaper fares - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...less-payment-cards.231684/page-8#post-6091028

I got talking to some members of staff at my local station last week, they said contactless cannot come soon enough because they have lots of passengers trying to touch out with contactless cards and are not aware that contcatless isn't valid to Stevenage.

I think that particular problem is happening all over the South East. Plenty of signs at Liverpool Street about passengers turning up at Stansted with a Contactless Card and getting a penalty fare.

 

[Haywain]

I got talking to some members of staff at my local station last week, they said contactless cannot come soon enough because they have lots of passengers trying to touch out with contactless cards and are not aware that contcatless isn't valid to Stevenage. It would make sense to extend to Stevenage in phase 1 because it's only four additional stations (Welwyn North, Knebworth, Watton at Stone and Stevenage) and it would make sure that the entirity of the inner-suburban service from Moorgate was covered.

Of course, once that extension does happen the problem will simply move a station or three further along the line. It doesn't just cease to be a problem, rather it gets seen by different staff.

 

[Hadders]

I think that coincides with the story I quoted from the Standard upthread which contained similar claims about cheaper fares - https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...less-payment-cards.231684/page-8#post-6091028

Yes it is. The story you quoted was on the front page of the paper (not the main headline but the secondary one). The bit I took a photo of was the editorial comment.

I think that particular problem is happening all over the South East. Plenty of signs at Liverpool Street about passengers turning up at Stansted with a Contactless Card and getting a penalty fare.

Of course, once that extension does happen the problem will simply move a station or three further along the line. It doesn't just cease to be a problem, rather it gets seen by different staff.

I agree with both of you, although Stevenage does make some sense being the busiest station in the area and the end of the inner-suburban trains. Contactless can be used on the entire inner-suburban service with the exception of Watton at Stone and Stevenage.

 

[A S Leib]

Contactless can be used on the entire inner-suburban service with the exception of Watton at Stone and Stevenage.

If you have a railcard or are under 16 you're better off using KeyGo (although that still doesn't solve Peterborough and Cambridge).

 

[Haywain]

If you have a railcard or are under 16 you're better off using KeyGo (although that still doesn't solve Peterborough and Cambridge).

This is true but it has the disadvantage of not working for journeys through to London Underground stations.

 

[Hadders]

If you have a railcard or are under 16 you're better off using KeyGo (although that still doesn't solve Peterborough and Cambridge).

Agreed but as @Haywain points out it doesn't integrate with anything else in London. LNER supposedly don't accept it between Stevenage and London but I'm not really sure how enforceable that is. KeyGo would be a real winner if it worked across London and the South East but it seems the decision's been made to go with TfL contactless via Project Oval.

Railcards are supposed to be coming to contactless in phase 2 of Project Oval.

 

[Haywain]

LNER supposedly don't accept it between Stevenage and London but I'm not really sure how enforceable that is. KeyGo would be a real winner if it worked across London and the South East but it seems the decision's been made to go with TfL contactless via Project Oval.

It would be good to see KeyGo accepted over a wider area, but I think we have to accept that it isn't going to extend to TfL services or certain train operators (East Midlands Railway don't accept it either, and don't have fare differentials to consider). On the whole it's a better system than contactless as it does away with having to think about which ticket or method of payment you need to use. The big advantage of contactless is that it doesn't require any registration or the need to obtain a specific smartcard to use it. And politicians like contactless because it fits with their soundbites.

Railcards are supposed to be coming to contactless in phase 2 of Project Oval.

That is definitely part of the plan.

 

[Capvermell]

A perhaps too positive story in the Evening Standard about this yesterday which suggests that the 52 stations for initial extensions include stations served by Chiltern, c2c and London Northwestern Railway.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...london-commuters-trains-tickets-b1062511.html

So this wave of contactless going as far as Tring, which is 32 walking miles from Trafalgar Square but not going to Ockley only 30 walking miles from Trafalgar Square or indeed Dorking only 23 walking miles from Victoria.

I suppose in principle if I only had to pay half the current super off peak return fare of £7.10 with railcard from Ockley to Victoria on Saturdays when the last train back is at 5.41 pm from Victoria (so I can't use my return as far as Ockley) then it could in theory be an improvement. Although I would much rather that Southern gave us train services on Saturday evening and Sunday from Dorking to Horsham, even if they only ran once every 2 hours.

A favourite trick of Southern with Super Off Peak tickets on the Horsham to Victoria via Dorking service is to only make the Super Off Peak ticket valid to London Victoria and not to London Bridge (their own station) let alone London Terminals so that nobody will be tempted to travel to London Waterloo with Southwestern instead (by changing at Epsom on to the Southwestern Wimbledon line). Yet if I travel from Ockley to Maze Hill via London Bridge in the afternoon the cheapest ticket the machine at Ockley offers me is Southwestern's Evening Out Return, even though Ockley is a Southern only served train station with Southwestern not running south of Dorking.

Also Travelcard tickets are only Off Peak to London Travelcard Zones 1 to 6 with no Super Off Peak Travelcard ticket available either in the weekday off peak or on our desultory short hours only late starting Saturday daytime only service. This despite the fact that we can buy a Super Off Peak Return ticket to Victoria but not to London Bridge or London Terminals.........

 

[778]

Would you sill be able to buy paper tickets if you wanted to for journeys in the contactless area after project oval has been implemented?

 

[Hadders]

Would you sill be able to buy paper tickets if you wanted to for journeys in the contactless area after project oval has been implemented?

Yes. I expect the current full range of tickets to still be available, at least initially. But over a period of time I suspect the range of paper tickets will be rationalised. The worst case scenario is that only Anytime tickets would remain available for sale on paper. TfL withdrew all off-peak paper tickets about 10 years ago and using a paper ticket to travel on one of their services is prohibitively expensive.

I am not against paper tickets being withdrawn but I am against good value tickets being withdrawn and I suspect we will see good value tickets (like Super Off Peak tickets) being removed which will reate huge fares increases via the back door.

 

[778]

Yes. I expect the current full range of tickets to still be available, at least initially. But over a period of time I suspect the range of paper tickets will be rationalised. The worst case scenario is that only Anytime tickets would remain available for sale on paper. TfL withdrew all off-peak paper tickets about 10 years ago and using a paper ticket to travel on one of their services is prohibitively expensive.

I am not against paper tickets being withdrawn but I am against good value tickets being withdrawn and I suspect we will see good value tickets (like Super Off Peak tickets) being removed which will reate huge fares increases via the back door.

I think the worst case scenario would be not being able to use the Network Railcard with contactless.

 

[Benjwri]

Yes. I expect the current full range of tickets to still be available, at least initially. But over a period of time I suspect the range of paper tickets will be rationalised. The worst case scenario is that only Anytime tickets would remain available for sale on paper. TfL withdrew all off-peak paper tickets about 10 years ago and using a paper ticket to travel on one of their services is prohibitively expensive.

I am not against paper tickets being withdrawn but I am against good value tickets being withdrawn and I suspect we will see good value tickets (like Super Off Peak tickets) being removed which will reate huge fares increases via the back door.

Although Off Peak fares haven’t been removed for Reading etc. You also have the issue of regulated fares starting to become more prominent on the kind of places the expansion reaches, so TfL can’t just decide to remove them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the worst case scenario would be not being able to use the Network Railcard with contactless.

I think a more likely worst case scenario is the card being abolished entirely.

 

[Hadders]

I think the worst case scenario would be not being able to use the Network Railcard with contactless.

Railcards are supposed to be part of phase 2 of Project Oval. Realistically paper tickets cannot be removed until they are enabled.

Although Off Peak fares haven’t been removed for Reading etc. You also have the issue of regulated fares starting to become more prominent on the kind of places the expansion reaches, so TfL can’t just decide to remove them.

I don't think we'll see any movement until Phase 2 of Project Oval at the earliest.

I think a more likely worst case scenario is the card being abolished entirely.

Hopefully not. A 50% increase in Off Peak fares would not be acceptable.

 

[ess]

When is phase 2 supposed to deliver?

 

[Haywain]

When is phase 2 supposed to deliver?

2024, although I suspect it might slip to 2025 as phase 1 hasn't landed yet.

 

[Fazaar1889]

phase 1 hasn't landed yet.

Not up to speed. What happened?

 

[Haywain]

Not up to speed. What happened?

Nothing, yet. Phase 1 is the initial roll out of contactless to an additional 50 or so stations, happening this year (by the end of the year, according to the newspaper report linked in post #246).

 

[Fazaar1889]

Nothing, yet. Phase 1 is the initial roll out of contactless to an additional 50 or so stations, happening this year (by the end of the year, according to the newspaper report linked in post #246).

ah ok thanks. Why do you think the full roll out will slip to 2025 tho?

 

[Haywain]

ah ok thanks. Why do you think the full roll out will slip to 2025 tho?

Just the way things go. I am pretty sure phase 1 was supposed to be the first half of 2023. I'd be happy to be wrong.

 

[JaJaWa]

Just the way things go. I am pretty sure phase 1 was supposed to be the first half of 2023. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Phase 1: end of 2022
Phase 2: May 2024

Dates are in Post #1

 

[Haywain]

Phase 1: end of 2022

When I was in a couple of meetings about it in October/November last year it was clearly not happening before 2023.

 

[londonbridge]

Quick question, is Tonbridge included in this project or not?

 

[Alex365Dash]

Quick question, is Tonbridge included in this project or not?

The consultation map in post #1 (which shows the majority but not all included stations I believe) includes Tonbridge and south to Tunbridge Wells.