Network Rail industrial action suspended

[The Planner]

Apart from the last couple of years, when could we carry leave over? We certainly cannot this year. Use it or lose it in 23.

 

[alastair]

I want to travel on 0910 Derby to Sheffield on Saturday 18th March, and back same day 4pm ish, using a Derbyshire Wayfarer (Old folks price). Are any trains likely to be running?

Find out on Tuesday. From the EM website: https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/rail-strike

Saturday 18 March - Strike action and engineering work​

We are still working hard to identify how this will impact our timetable and your journey. The below EMR services are what we expect to be operating and online journey planners will be updated on Tuesday 14 March.
EMR services will operate between 0730 and 1830 only.

 

[Trothy]

Apart from the last couple of years, when could we carry leave over? We certainly cannot this year. Use it or lose it in 23.

If annual leave is applied for and cannot be granted we are usually allowed to carry it over here (LNW) usually upto about 3 days, with the caveat it be used up within the first quarter. I'm not sure if it's just a local agreement though.

Certainly I have no interest whatsoever in selling leave. Buying leave on the other hand I would be all for. That said, I doubt that'll be on the table for ops anytime soon.

 

[Facing Back]

I'm reading the leave issue with interest. Is it really the case that it is common for leave booked 3 months in advance not to be granted? Does anyone know why this would be the case?

I'm familiar with leave blocks/quotas/rotations for key days - Christmas/black-fridays etc - and for some occupations during events, which can happen at short notice but most often don't but generally I would expect booking with 3 months notice for approval to be more or less automatic.

Final note - AIUI, in the HR world, selling leave is not considered to be good practice, although they recognise that some flexibility is important. The idea being that a certain amount of leave - 20 days typically I think - is essential for good mental health, and ideally 10 or those should be taken consecutively (caveat - I'm not an HR expert). Conversely, allowing staff to buy leave seems to be increasingly attractive to some organisations. If it is commonly it allows them to maintain the flexibility normally provided through agency staff or overtime and not having the overheads attached to either allows for a a slight increase in headcount - which in turn gives an increase in contingency for peaks.

It is also a very popular and attractive benefit which costs next to nothing to offer for certain companies.

 

[Meerkat]

The idea being that a certain amount of leave - 20 days typically I think - is essential for good mental health, and ideally 10 or those should be taken consecutively

When I worked for a bank we had to take two consecutive weeks. We weren’t given an official reason but everyone said that it was to make it much harder to cover up any dodgy stuff you were up to.

 

[Mag_seven]

We certainly cannot this year. Use it or lose it in 23.

Which results in everybody being off in December!

 

[JoeyB]

In our area, leave can be granted up to a year in advance. It is dictated by rules about how many can be off in a link or team at a time. So as long as the request fits within the quota, it's authorised and otherwise is subject to cover.

It seems very wrong if people aren't able to be granted leave in advance and end up not being able to take it and therefore lose it.

 

[Facing Back]

It seems very wrong if people aren't able to be granted leave in advance and end up not being able to take it and therefore lose it.

Agreed

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

When I worked for a bank we had to take two consecutive weeks. We weren’t given an official reason but everyone said that it was to make it much harder to cover up any dodgy stuff you were up to.

Investment banks often do that - mainly for staff involved in certain trading activities. They are expected to unwind open trades before leaving and can't take bank devices with them. Certain derivates can't be unwound and they have to be "handed over". Simplistic and well off topic!

AIUI it is not common practice to reveal for "dodgy stuff" in retail banks, but many specify a 2 week period because it stops people having 25 single days off and means they get a proper break.

 

[43066]

Investment banks often do that - mainly for staff involved in certain trading activities. They are expected to unwind open trades before leaving and can't take bank devices with them. Certain derivates can't be unwound and they have to be "handed over". Simplistic and well off topic!

I seem to recall my ex who did equity sales* for an IB also had to do this, albeit she wasn’t actually placing trades. It was a requirement to take one two week holiday per year, from memory.

*I should have just married her and become a house husband, but that’s another story.

 

[Facing Back]

I seem to recall my ex who did equity sales* for an IB also had to do this, albeit she wasn’t actually placing trades. It was a requirement to take one two week holiday per year, from memory.

*I should have just married her and become a house husband, but that’s another story.

Sounds about right. Compliance seem to want anyone who has client contact to have a firebreak as well for the same reasons. Of course compliance is about as well regarded in IBs as incompetent management/rabid conservative government/militant socialist unions (delete as appropriate) is by members of this forum.

* One of my ex's was an analyst for an IB so I feel your pain...

 

[alxndr]

I'm reading the leave issue with interest. Is it really the case that it is common for leave booked 3 months in advance not to be granted? Does anyone know why this would be the case?

I’ve seen it happen in maintenance. In a team of three, if two people want leave and there’s no one willing to cover it as overtime then it’s highly likely for that leave to be refused no matter how far in advance it’s requested. Or if you’ve got a competence that’s required and no one with it is available to cover, then again, you’re out of luck.

Theoretically contractors could be used, but it almost never happens in practice in my experience.

 

[Facing Back]

I’ve seen it happen in maintenance. In a team of three, if two people want leave and there’s no one willing to cover it as overtime then it’s highly likely for that leave to be refused no matter how far in advance it’s requested. Or if you’ve got a competence that’s required and no one with it is available to cover, then again, you’re out of luck.

Theoretically contractors could be used, but it almost never happens in practice in my experience.

Thanks.

OK the team of 3 I see. Are you saying that if you book first then you get it, if not then you are bang out of luck?

Could you elaborate on the competence please - does that mean if you are the only person in a group with a certain competence then you are bang out of luck? Or is it more that if the others with same competence book first then you have to move your request by a week or so?

 

[43066]

Of course compliance is about as well regarded in IBs as incompetent management/rabid conservative government/militant socialist unions (delete as appropriate) is by members of this forum.

I like what you did there. Putting the forum to one side, as a railway employee, all of the above seem pretty accurate to me!

* One of my ex's was an analyst for an IB so I feel your pain...

I’m guessing no prisoners were taken, no quarter was given? Similar experience.

 

[alxndr]

Thanks.

OK the team of 3 I see. Are you saying that if you book first then you get it, if not then you are bang out of luck?

Yup, unless someone is willing and able to do overtime.

Could you elaborate on the competence please - does that mean if you are the only person in a group with a certain competence then you are bang out of luck? Or is it more that if the others with same competence book first then you have to move your request by a week or so?

Could be either. If you going off means that there is a gap in the required competency cover for that shift then it’s likely that you’ll be refused. That might be “we need an ES (Engineering Supervisor) that night and you’re the only one, sorry” or ”I know you said Jim would cover you that day but Bob’s already off and Jim hasn’t got COSS so unless you can find someone else we won‘t be able to grant it.”

 

[Facing Back]

I like what you did there. Putting the forum to one side, as a railway employee, all of the above seem pretty accurate to me!

Despite all of my inherent prejudices, I try to keep an open mind...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

Could be either. If you going off means that there is a gap in the required competency cover for that shift then it’s likely that you’ll be refused. That might be “we need an ES (Engineering Supervisor) that night and you’re the only one, sorry” or ”I know you said Jim would cover you that day but Bob’s already off and Jim hasn’t got COSS so unless you can find someone else we won‘t be able to grant it.”

OK understood. Thanks for that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

I like what you did there. Putting the forum to one side, as a railway employee, all of the above seem pretty accurate to me!

I joined this forum because I couldn't believe what I reading in the press - about the existential battle between good and evil - the unions holding the country to hostage, the railway worker who didn't turn up for work for 30 years and still got paid (turns out he was French), a team of professional politicians trying to micro-manage an enormous and complex organisation, the incredible cost overruns in electrification, the billions that the train companies were earning, which pales into insignificance compared to the trillions the ROSCOs were earning, the 1970's culture...

I can think of few industries where so many people who know so little about it (me included) have such strong and polar opinions

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

I’m guessing no prisoners were taken, no quarter was given? Similar experience.

Not too bad actually. We travelled a lot so made the most of the time together - it had its moments. I have a photo of us in a lift in the four seasons in Prague after the opera dressed to the nines. I was leaning against the wall and squinting at the camera and she was asleep and tossed over the shoulder of one of the larger hotel porters who carried her to our room - thee was a place called "The Alcohol Bar" on the walk back. It wasn't destined to last but was fun whilst it did.

 

[Annetts key]

I joined this forum because I couldn't believe what I reading in the press - about the existential battle between good and evil - the unions holding the country to hostage….

The thing is, it’s like many other things, there are the headlines designed “to sell more papers” or equivalent. As we know, there are also some biased ideas with some of the media.

Plus the railways are complicated and complex, so, unless you’ve worked on the system or have actually spent time properly finding out about it in some detail, you only get a fraction of an idea of what’s actually going on. And hence the media don’t understand. And even if they do, the story has to be “dumbed down” to fit the ‘slot’ and because the reader/viewer is not expected to want to know the detail.

 

[43066]

Despite all of my inherent prejudices, I try to keep an open mind...

I’m afraid I’m going the other way. The older I get, the more right wing and reactionary I seem to become! I’m actively nurturing my inherent prejudices.

the billions that the train companies were earning, which pales into insignificance compared to the trillions the ROSCOs were earning, the 1970's culture...

It’s all there. It’s a museum piece. Perhaps that’s something to celebrate?

I have a photo of us in a lift in the four seasons in Prague after the opera dressed to the nines. I was leaning against the wall and squinting at the camera and she was asleep and tossed over the shoulder of one of the larger hotel porters who carried her to our room - thee was a place called "The Alcohol Bar" on the walk back. It wasn't destined to last but was fun whilst it did.

I’ve chalked up a couple of four seasons (Koh Samui springs to mind). It was £500 per night about ten years ago. That seems scary even now.

There has to be a joke in your other half being “tossed over the shoulder of one of the larger hotel porters”?!

 

[Facing Back]

The thing is, it’s like many other things, there are the headlines designed “to sell more papers” or equivalent. As we know, there are also some biased ideas with some of the media.

Plus the railways are complicated and complex, so, unless you’ve worked on the system or have actually spent time properly finding out about it in some detail, you only get a fraction of an idea of what’s actually going on. And hence the media don’t understand. And even if they do, the story has to be “dumbed down” to fit the ‘slot’ and because the reader/viewer is not expected to want to know the detail.

I agree with all of that. My lack of trust with the headlines led me here and I know I'm just scratching the surface. I am grateful to all of the posters here who answer my questions.

 

[43066]

I agree with all of that. My lack of trust with the headlines led me here and I know I'm just scratching the surface. I am grateful to all of the posters here who answer my questions.

It won’t get any better, the more you analyse it. Quite the opposite, in fact. It’s best just not to think too hard about it.

On the other hand, the railway costs a boat load less than the NHS.

 

[Facing Back]

It won’t get any better, the more you analyse it. Quite the opposite, in fact. It’s best just not to think too hard about it.

On the other hand, the railway costs a boat load less than the NHS.

It costs less than the welfare and military budgets too. I'm not looking for reductions in any of those but I'd quite like to feel that they are all being managed slightly better.

I'll take your advice and stop the analysis I think. I'm going enjoy the interaction and hearing people's wide and varied opinions and experiences. There are some marvellous characters here.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

I’m afraid I’m going the other way. The older I get, the more right wing and reactionary I seem to become! I’m actively nurturing my inherent prejudices.

Somewhat the same. I don't like this government not because they are right wing, but because they are complacent and incompetent. Although I'll give Richie a chance.

I'm privileged I guess, I left my big company a while back so now I am an observer to some extent, plus I took a year dead for tax reasons before coming back. I'm just as cynical, but now it makes me smile more than it annoys me.

I suspect I'm older than you and I have a small dog curled up asleep on my foot plus I'm on my second bottle of Amarone so its easy to be mellow.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

I’ve chalked up a couple of four seasons (Koh Samui springs to mind). It was £500 per night about ten years ago. That seems scary even now.

There has to be a joke in your other half being “tossed over the shoulder of one of the larger hotel porters”?!

You've gpt me into trouble with the mods before so there is no way I'm responding to "tossed over the shoulder". Plus if she ever found out then my ping-pong balls would end up crushed to the size of frozen peas.

However a group of us - all equally shallow - did attempt to "do" all of the Four Seasons. We got close I think before they opened up a bunch of new ones and we finally grew up a bit. Funnily enough I never did the Koh Samui one.

 

[Bow Fell]

I joined this forum because I couldn't believe what I reading in the press - about the existential battle between good and evil - the unions holding the country to hostage, the railway worker who didn't turn up for work for 30 years and still got paid (turns out he was French), a team of professional politicians trying to micro-manage an enormous and complex organisation, the incredible cost overruns in electrification, the billions that the train companies were earning, which pales into insignificance compared to the trillions the ROSCOs were earning, the 1970's culture...

I can think of few industries where so many people who know so little about it (me included) have such strong and polar opinions

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

It’s nice of you to keep an open mind and not to jump to conclusions!

Please, don’t be taken in by certain posters on here. While they are respected because of their in depth railway knowledge as an insider, they also have an agenda to push.

They will have you believe everyone they talk to has left the union, scores and scores of staff have crossed picket lines, there is no doubt in my mind that it has happened but not to that extent of course, but not to the extent they will tell you. They will tell you everyone they have spoken to wants to accept the deal and voted yes last time, they may well have, but I’d be impressive if they’d managed to speak to thousands of staff all with the same opinion. They haven’t been affected by the dispute except workload and have an “I’m alright Jack” attitude, that’s fair enough but it doesn’t represent the bigger picture.

It would be nice for you to speak to real people, real people affected by this dispute, that have bills to pay, that aren’t just a username on a forum, that aren’t headline salaries plastered on a newspaper!

I’ve got no wish to force an opinion on you, from an outsider to the dispute but an insider on the railway, it’s been a horrible and toxic one at times, and people just want a decent wage and job security and decent T&C’s still. That’s what I want to and always wI’ll, My values, are my values and my opinions on the situation are personal to me.

I’ve found 3 opinions so far:

- Those that are desperate for a deal and will vote yes straight away

- Those that aren’t 100% pleased with the deal have reservations but think the deal is the best they will get so are reluctantly voting yes.

- Those who are stuck hard and have no intention of voting yes, until an unrealistic pay offer is put forward.

I’ve spoken to all three types of these people. Some who have been desperate at times, saying they just couldn’t afford to lose more pay, and may have to return to work at some point, those in a similar position but are happy to continue to lose pay until the dispute is sorted.

Don’t forget there are NR staff that with the exception of strike days of course, really go above and beyond to keep the trains moving everyday from controllers, to signallers to S&T. Just because they are part of a striking union, they are still real people at the end of the day.

 

[Facing Back]

It’s nice of you to keep an open mind and not to jump to conclusions!

Please, don’t be taken in by certain posters on here. While they are respected because of their in depth railway knowledge as an insider, they also have an agenda to push.

They will have you believe everyone they talk to has left the union, scores and scores of staff have crossed picket lines, there is no doubt in my mind that it has happened but not to that extent of course, but not to the extent they will tell you. They will tell you everyone they have spoken to wants to accept the deal and voted yes last time, they may well have, but I’d be impressive if they’d managed to speak to thousands of staff all with the same opinion. They haven’t been affected by the dispute except workload and have an “I’m alright Jack” attitude, that’s fair enough but it doesn’t represent the bigger picture.

It would be nice for you to speak to real people, real people affected by this dispute, that have bills to pay, that aren’t just a username on a forum, that aren’t headline salaries plastered on a newspaper!

I’ve got no wish to force an opinion on you, from an outsider to the dispute but an insider on the railway, it’s been a horrible and toxic one at times, and people just want a decent wage and job security and decent T&C’s still. That’s what I want to and always wI’ll, My values, are my values and my opinions on the situation are personal to me.

I’ve found 3 opinions so far:

- Those that are desperate for a deal and will vote yes straight away

- Those that aren’t 100% pleased with the deal have reservations but think the deal is the best they will get so are reluctantly voting yes.

- Those who are stuck hard and have no intention of voting yes, until an unrealistic pay offer is put forward.

I’ve spoken to all three types of these people. Some who have been desperate at times, saying they just couldn’t afford to lose more pay, and may have to return to work at some point, those in a similar position but are happy to continue to lose pay until the dispute is sorted.

Don’t forget there are NR staff that with the exception of strike days of course, really go above and beyond to keep the trains moving everyday from controllers, to signallers to S&T. Just because they are part of a striking union, they are still real people at the end of the day.

Thank you for the thoughtful and detailed response to my rather vague post.

Please be assured that I won't be taken in. There are several posters with clear in-depth knowledge, but all of them are very open about their opinions and affiliation. There are many posters with very strong opinions, I find both interesting and valuable. Anecdotal evidence is just that and, again, people have generally been honest that "people they have spoken to" have a view. There is often a bias in that we talk to people with similar opinions to us so take that with a pinch of salt and of course union membership isn't published. The RMT has 40,000 or so members, I for one am waiting to see the results of the referendum.

I would be delighted to talk to real people, I always am. Does this place have actual forum social events? Please be aware that I don't take headline salaries at face value and have quite a good idea of the actual remuneration of various grades.

I believe you when you say that it has been horrible and toxic. Everything I hear supports that. There are some quite fundamental principles being negotiated and long standing practice being over-ridden. It is bound to be challenging.

I recognise the 3 types of opinions you quote. Both sides in this dispute seem to have been prepared to wait the other side out and negotiating tactics have been quite aggressive - again on both sides.

And finally - please believe me when I say that I am sure that the vast majority of people want to do a good job and are prepared to go above and beyond to do it. I don't blame people for striking - I do think that change is a fact of modern day working life though and a collaborative rather than confrontational approach to this benefits both sides.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As the TOC strikes are going ahead, it makes little difference to most routes, there will be no or a severely reduced service on strike days.

That’s not true to many of the railways customers it makes a massive difference. On a strike day their freight will still be able to run. It’s only passenger trains affected.

 

[XAM2175]

I would be delighted to talk to real people, I always am. Does this place have actual forum social events? Please be aware that I don't take headline salaries at face value and have quite a good idea of the actual remuneration of various grades.

There's even a sub-forum for them!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/forum-meets.18/

 

[Facing Back]

There's even a sub-forum for them!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/forums/forum-meets.18/

Aha! Cheers

 

[Fleetmaster]

I am sure that the vast majority of people want to do a good job and are prepared to go above and beyond to do it. I don't blame people for striking - I do think that change is a fact of modern day working life though and a collaborative rather than confrontational approach to this benefits both sides.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It got lost in the smoke and bullets, but when Lizz Truss said the Brits are just workshy, she didn't just pull it out of a hat, it is based on factual data. Nobody cares. It's only science. And of course numerous studies have proven that a mere pay rise for the sake of it doesn't increase productivity, it's about whether a worker feels valued. And so if Unions are truly aiming for a pay rise that values their workers fairly, settling for less than what they claim is that figure, is actually a lose-lose situation (workers don't get more productive, employer pays them more anyway).

 

[Annetts key]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It got lost in the smoke and bullets, but when Lizz Truss said the Brits are just workshy, she didn't just pull it out of a hat, it is based on factual data. Nobody cares. It's only science. And of course numerous studies have proven that a mere pay rise for the sake of it doesn't increase productivity, it's about whether a worker feels valued. And so if Unions are truly aiming for a pay rise that values their workers fairly, settling for less than what they claim is that figure, is actually a lose-lose situation (workers don't get more productive, employer pays them more anyway).

Also consider that if the employer does not give the employees a pay rise, but other industries are getting a pay rise, how productive are your employees going to be if they are considering looking for another job, or just being unhappy?

Similarly, if a company causes employees to be unhappy for other reasons (changes that are seen as detrimental such as changes to T&Cs and or work practices), again it’s likely that productivity will fall.

Hence why a good management team should do their best to have good industrial relations with their workforce. To actually listen to what the employees say and to make changes where possible and practical so that the employees feel that they are valued and not just an annoying number that costs the company money.

For Network Rail maintenance staff, the company itself has caused productivity to fall compared to previously. Some of the factors being, what work (if any) the planner has planned (including whether it’s practical or possible to do the planned work), the introduction of the “019” (a Network Rail procedure for the safety of staff on or near the line) process where “safe system of work packs” have to be checked before use (how quickly that can be done partially depends on how well the planner has planned it), removing the lookout systems and only allowing staff to work in a lineblock or a worksite inside a T3 occupation, wanting photos of suspect equipment, broken or damaged equipment or infrastructure, wanting an increased number of updates via ‘phone, wanting an end of shift report to be written, wanting the hours on each task, hours driving, hours off tools all to be entered in their MyWork App (which has a nasty tendency to crash while being used). All of which reduces the amount of work that can be completed.

You will notice that the above includes “what work (if any) the planner has planned”. Years ago the RMT suggested it would be a good idea for the company to increase the number of planners when they introduced different track safety systems. But the company ignored this suggestion. Hence in many areas, the planners are stressed, and can’t manage to keep up. So it’s not unknown for staff to have absolutely no work planned for their shift. Or for the planner to get some part of the safe system of work pack wrong. Which then means more work to try to get it corrected. Or, this may not be possible and then the planned work cannot be done on the shift(s) it was intended to be done.

Has safety improved? Overall, yes. Are lineblocks totally safe? Absolutely not, there have been far too many lineblock incidents where a train has entered or could have potentially entered the area where staff are working, and are under the impression that they are safe from being hit by a train. Or where the distance between where the staff are working and a line that is open is below the minimum required distance. Please note that I’m not going into details on any of these, as it’s totally off topic.

But all of the reasons above have decimated the level of real productivity compared to the last days of BR. And no, BR was not wonderful a lot of the time.

 

[yorksrob]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. It got lost in the smoke and bullets, but when Lizz Truss said the Brits are just workshy, she didn't just pull it out of a hat, it is based on factual data. Nobody cares. It's only science. And of course numerous studies have proven that a mere pay rise for the sake of it doesn't increase productivity, it's about whether a worker feels valued. And so if Unions are truly aiming for a pay rise that values their workers fairly, settling for less than what they claim is that figure, is actually a lose-lose situation (workers don't get more productive, employer pays them more anyway).

It would be interesting to know where she got that daya from, as everything I see suggests that Britons work some of the longest hours in Europe.

On the subject of strikes, presumably this means that we'll be spared the late start on the Friday as the signallers will be in ?

 

[bazzarati]

Apart from the last couple of years, when could we carry leave over? We certainly cannot this year. Use it or lose it in 23.

Let me give you some advice from my experience. Whatever the company says, disregard it. They always break their promises when it suits. Oddly enough they are furious if you do the same. However I actually enjoy going into these meetings and wiping the floor with management. I have regularly carried 5+days over because it's been refused during the year.

 

[The Planner]

Let me give you some advice from my experience. Whatever the company says, disregard it. They always break their promises when it suits. Oddly enough they are furious if you do the same. However I actually enjoy going into these meetings and wiping the floor with management. I have regularly carried 5+days over because it's been refused during the year.

I have no doubt plenty of people have if they have an agreement with their line manager. Not everyone is out to get you.