Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

[Deepgreen]

Now the 769s are aborted there’s been a real push at Reading to mark up the first class area on the 165/1 3 cars: first class antimacassars on the seats and 1st class labels on the windows.

With the fleets now staying fairly static between Reading and Bristol there’s no reason why these markings shouldn’t stay (there was an issue when the fleet was mixed between the two locations).

Any chance of proper exterior labelling, such as the good yellow stripes used on the 769s? Will the internal doors be made to work again? In other words, will GWR take the issue seriously or will it continue to be a half-hearted mess, I wonder?

 

[DelW]

Any chance of proper exterior labelling, such as the good yellow stripes used on the 769s? Will the internal doors be made to work again? In other words, will GWR take the issue seriously or will it continue to be a half-hearted mess, I wonder?

With part of the problem apparently being that units are swapped between diagrams with first class tickets available and those without, it's a pity that electronic displays couldn't have been fitted during the refurb.

All that's needed would be a couple of screens within the f-c saloon, and one by the door into it, which could display either

• This area is reserved for passengers with first class tickets only, or
• This area is available for all passengers on this service

Since no moving graphics or even colours are necessary, these could be e-ink displays which don't need power once set. They could either be set automatically from the TMS, or if that needs too much programming, set manually by the guard when the unit leaves the depot.

There'd still be a need for the external stripe, so that f-c passengers can see as the train arrives which end they need to go to.

I imagine there's no chance of DfT sanctioning the extra cost though.

 

[JN114]

I imagine there's no chance of DfT sanctioning the extra cost though.

Correct.

There’s cases of them not sanctioning extra cost for essential maintenance / replacement parts. Nice to haves are very likely out of the question.

Humbly they’d do better to get rid of First Class on anything but the IETs, the regional/suburban fleets need every square millimetre of capacity it can get.

 

[Deepgreen]

Correct.

There’s cases of them not sanctioning extra cost for essential maintenance / replacement parts. Nice to haves are very likely out of the question.

Humbly they’d do better to get rid of First Class on anything but the IETs, the regional/suburban fleets need every square millimetre of capacity it can get.

That would be fine, but at the moment it's a messy situation, and one which long pre-dates the current financial squeeze. As I've mentioned before, the Turbo refurbishment programme has failed to provide this very basic labelling and the incremental cost would have been absolutely tiny. As it is, newly-refurbished trains are running around with no first class accommodation indication, despite first class fares being charged - not what I would call a 'nice to have'. I suspect, too, that the refurbishment programme's specification also pre-dates the financial problems, and that the signing/labelling should ahve been specified there to the same standard as the 769s' livery. When GWR re-branded from FGW they thought it more appropriate to have an almost-invisible pencil line for first class than a proper, useful yellow stripe. Design was chosen over function. The irony is that the only GWR units to have proper labelling were the 769s, which never carried a fare-paying passenger!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That would be fine, but at the moment it's a messy situation, and one which long pre-dates the current financial squeeze. As I've mentioned before, the Turbo refurbishment programme has failed to provide this very basic labelling and the incremental cost would have been absolutely tiny. As it is, newly-refurbished trains are running around with no first class accommodation indication, despite first class fares being charged - not what I would call a 'nice to have'. I suspect, too, that the refurbishment programme's specification also pre-dates the financial problems, and that the signing/labelling should ahve been specified there to the same standard as the 769s' livery. When GWR re-branded from FGW they thought it more appropriate to have an almost-invisible pencil line for first class than a proper, useful yellow stripe. Design was chosen over function. The irony is that the only GWR units to have proper labelling were the 769s, which never carried a fare-paying passenger!

View attachment 130703

You really overemphasise the importance of the line over the windows. Most sensible people will know it’s first class from the antimacs and interior signage, so as long as that’s sorted out, a silver line isn’t an issue at all and certainly isn’t not “proper labelling” just because it’s a different colour to what you see as the tradition. A 1 on the outside is also usually a giveaway.

 

[Ashley Hill]

You really overemphasise the importance of the line over the windows. Most sensible people will know it’s first class from the antimacs and interior signage

Many don’t realise this on IETs so I doubt they will on a Turbo.

 

[DelW]

You really overemphasise the importance of the line over the windows. Most sensible people will know it’s first class from the antimacs and interior signage, so as long as that’s sorted out, a silver line isn’t an issue at all and certainly isn’t not “proper labelling” just because it’s a different colour to what you see as the tradition. A 1 on the outside is also usually a giveaway.

It needs to be clearly visible from the outside as the train arrives, since trains can be either way round on the North Downs. If you get onto a busy train at the 'wrong' end you'd be half way to your destination by the time you've shoved your way through, especially if there are lots of Gatwick passengers with giant sized cases.

 

[Wolfie]

You really overemphasise the importance of the line over the windows. Most sensible people will know it’s first class from the antimacs and interior signage, so as long as that’s sorted out, a silver line isn’t an issue at all and certainly isn’t not “proper labelling” just because it’s a different colour to what you see as the tradition. A 1 on the outside is also usually a giveaway.

"The tradition" as you put it was a pan-European agreement which the UK diverged from after rail privatisation, apparently for no reason other than livery aesthetic considerations.

 

[Deepgreen]

You really overemphasise the importance of the line over the windows. Most sensible people will know it’s first class from the antimacs and interior signage, so as long as that’s sorted out, a silver line isn’t an issue at all and certainly isn’t not “proper labelling” just because it’s a different colour to what you see as the tradition. A 1 on the outside is also usually a giveaway.

I disagree - we had an excellent demarcation device in the yellow line, which took decades to become embedded in the passengers' psyche, only for it to be washed away in the name of 'innovation' by privatisation - a huge waste of an established regime. In addition, my point about the 165/166s is that they DON'T have any internal labelling post-refurbishment, so we have this situation: newly-refurbished trains that may or may not have a tiny pencil stripe over the windows of first class (or it may be at the wrong end!), while the interior has no labels, no anti-macassars and no other indication of first class. This is based on my experience of the NDL Turbos recently. In BR days I can genuinely not recall a single instance of this ever happening - it was considered (rightly) a fundamental part of turning out stock for service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

It needs to be clearly visible from the outside as the train arrives, since trains can be either way round on the North Downs. If you get onto a busy train at the 'wrong' end you'd be half way to your destination by the time you've shoved your way through, especially if there are lots of Gatwick passengers with giant sized cases.

Indeed, and there have been/are several units where the '1' on the door is either fogged over/peeling or actually at the wrong end! In any case, it doesn't matter how good the external labelling is, if there is nothing internally it is just as bad, and is unenforceable. It's a shambles like no other I have ever encountered on the railway and FGW/GWR have a long history of it. The privatisation requirements should have included a standard list of labelling requirements, including the long-established cantrail stripes, to be retianed by all TOCs, along the lines of London's privatised buses being required to have a red livery.

 

[FenMan]

I disagree - we had an excellent demarcation device in the yellow line, which took decades to become embedded in the passengers' psyche, only for it to be washed away in the name of 'innovation' by privatisation - a huge waste of an established regime. In addition, my point about the 165/166s is that they DON'T have any internal labelling post-refurbishment, so we have this situation: newly-refurbished trains that may or may not have a tiny pencil stripe over the windows of first class (or it may be at the wrong end!), while the interior has no labels, no anti-macassars and no other indication of first class. This is based on my experience of the NDL Turbos recently. In BR days I can genuinely not recall a single instance of this ever happening - it was considered (rightly) a fundamental part of turning out stock for service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==


Indeed, and there have been/are several units where the '1' on the door is either fogged over/peeling or actually at the wrong end! In any case, it doesn't matter how good the external labelling is, if there is nothing internally it is just as bad, and is unenforceable. It's a shambles like no other I have ever encountered on the railway and FGW/GWR have a long history of it. The privatisation requirements should have included a standard list of labelling requirements, including the long-established cantrail stripes, to be retianed by all TOCs, along the lines of London's privatised buses being required to have a red livery.

The refurbed 165 I used on Saturday morning (Blackwater to Guildford) had every marking you'd expect to delineate the 1st class accommodation, apart from a yellow stripe on the exterior.

 

[Deepgreen]

The refurbed 165 I used on Saturday morning (Blackwater to Guildford) had every marking you'd expect to delineate the 1st class accommodation, apart from a yellow stripe on the exterior.

That's good to hear. I wonder if a batch of refurbs slipped out and will be retro-fitted. Fingers crossed. I wrote to GWR about this in mid-January and they promised to investigate and come back to me asap - nothing yet!

 

[Phil R]

The refurbed 165 I used on Saturday morning (Blackwater to Guildford) had every marking you'd expect to delineate the 1st class accommodation, apart from a yellow stripe on the exterior.

165116? I had that one yesterday and it had the internal labels and antimacassars. The internal doors weren't even locked open.

 

[FenMan]

165116? I had that one yesterday and it had the internal labels and antimacassars. The internal doors weren't even locked open.

I don't know, I don't collect unit numbers.

 

[Deepgreen]

After three months I have at last had a reply from GWR about the first class labelling! All very well, but it doesn't answer my specific question about why several units were let out into service for months in an incomplete form? BR would not have countenanced this - I can't recall a single instance of stock in BR service without proper labelling. This is from a TOC that has an MD with at least some sort of railway background, too! Text below (my first e-mail about it was in early January):

"Thank you for your email of 12 March 2023 regarding the labelling of First Class on the turbo services operating on the North Downs Line.

I'm pleased to advise that all the Class 165 3 cars which will normally operate on the North Downs route have now had their 1st class reinstated, and internal labelling and antimacassars have been fitted.

Thank you once again for taking the time to raise this matter with us, which was very much appreciated."

 

[jackot]

After three months I have at last had a reply from GWR about the first class labelling! All very well, but it doesn't answer my specific question about why several units were let out into service for months in an incomplete form? BR would not have countenanced this - I can't recall a single instance of stock in BR service without proper labelling. This is from a TOC that has an MD with at least some sort of railway background, too! Text below (my first e-mail about it was in early January):

"Thank you for your email of 12 March 2023 regarding the labelling of First Class on the turbo services operating on the North Downs Line.

I'm pleased to advise that all the Class 165 3 cars which will normally operate on the North Downs route have now had their 1st class reinstated, and internal labelling and antimacassars have been fitted.

Thank you once again for taking the time to raise this matter with us, which was very much appreciated."

Good to hear they responded to you and took the time to sort out the matter.
Something needed to be done if they are still charging extra for 1st class tickets, despite the interior having no indication whatsoever

 

[3973EXL]

Realtime Trains | 5Q74 0950 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Reading Traincare Depot | 25/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q74 0950 departure from Wolverton Centre Sidings to Reading Traincare Depot on 25/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q70 1346 Reading Traincare Depot to Wolverton Centre Sidings | 25/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q70 1346 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to Wolverton Centre Sidings on 25/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

After three months I have at last had a reply from GWR about the first class labelling! All very well, but it doesn't answer my specific question about why several units were let out into service for months in an incomplete form? BR would not have countenanced this - I can't recall a single instance of stock in BR service without proper labelling. This is from a TOC that has an MD with at least some sort of railway background, too! Text below (my first e-mail about it was in early January):

"Thank you for your email of 12 March 2023 regarding the labelling of First Class on the turbo services operating on the North Downs Line.

I'm pleased to advise that all the Class 165 3 cars which will normally operate on the North Downs route have now had their 1st class reinstated, and internal labelling and antimacassars have been fitted.

Thank you once again for taking the time to raise this matter with us, which was very much appreciated."

Back to standard class I go then. Was nice while it lasted. Cheers for that Deepgreen

 

[FGW_DID]

Realtime Trains | 5Q74 0950 Wolverton Centre Sidings to Reading Traincare Depot | 25/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q74 0950 departure from Wolverton Centre Sidings to Reading Traincare Depot on 25/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q70 1346 Reading Traincare Depot to Wolverton Centre Sidings | 25/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q70 1346 departure from Reading Traincare Depot to Wolverton Centre Sidings on 25/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

5Q74 = 165117

5Q70 = 165107

 

[Kite159]

After three months I have at last had a reply from GWR about the first class labelling! All very well, but it doesn't answer my specific question about why several units were let out into service for months in an incomplete form? BR would not have countenanced this - I can't recall a single instance of stock in BR service without proper labelling. This is from a TOC that has an MD with at least some sort of railway background, too! Text below (my first e-mail about it was in early January):

"Thank you for your email of 12 March 2023 regarding the labelling of First Class on the turbo services operating on the North Downs Line.

I'm pleased to advise that all the Class 165 3 cars which will normally operate on the North Downs route have now had their 1st class reinstated, and internal labelling and antimacassars have been fitted.

Thank you once again for taking the time to raise this matter with us, which was very much appreciated."

I'm sure the one passenger who buys a 1st class ticket every now and again will be delighted they can sit away from all the riff raff.

At least it keeps passengers out of the declassified first class area on the Basingstoke line as they think it's actually 1st.

 

[FenMan]

I'm sure the one passenger who buys a 1st class ticket every now and again will be delighted they can sit away from all the riff raff.

At least it keeps passengers out of the declassified first class area on the Basingstoke line as they think it's actually 1st.

In my experience, few, if any, local travellers pay to travel 1st class on the North Downs. However, given Reading is a major interchange, I'll guess it suits GWR to offer 1st class accommodation for onward journeys, particularly to Gatwick Airport, to avoid arguments.

Likewise, the Reading - Basingstoke link for passengers heading to/from the south, particularly when XCountry's "service" is nowhere near where it ought to be.

 

[RailWonderer]

I'm sure the one passenger who buys a 1st class ticket every now and again will be delighted they can sit away from all the riff raff.

At least it keeps passengers out of the declassified first class area on the Basingstoke line as they think it's actually 1st.

Yeah, the riff raff of Dorking and Gomshall. The Box Hill hoodlums are horrid too, and those ramblers with their muddy boots.

 

[Snow1964]

18 months on since this thread started, and I think there are still a handful of 165s to receive attention

As for the condition of the 30-31 year old class 166s (some of which are still in old First colours), the less said the better, probably some of the most tatty trains anywhere. Sort of feels they have been doing sticking plaster refreshes for over 20 years

 

[FGW_DID]

18 months on since this thread started, and I think there are still a handful of 165s to receive attention

As for the condition of the 30-31 year old class 166s (some of which are still in old First colours), the less said the better, probably some of the most tatty trains anywhere. Sort of feels they have been doing sticking plaster refreshes for over 20 years

The 166s will be starting refresh after the 165s. The 1st one will go when the penultimate 165 comes out.
Those 166 still in blue should come back green.

 

[Anonymous10]

The 166s will be starting refresh after the 165s. The 1st one will go when the penultimate 165 comes out.
Those 166 still in blue should come back green.

Will they keep the former first class section or get any small modifications to make them more suitable for the longer distance services?

 

[387star]

Will they keep the former first class section or get any small modifications to make them more suitable for the longer distance services?

More tables presumably

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Will they keep the former first class section or get any small modifications to make them more suitable for the longer distance services?

I believe the DfT has only funded a similar level of refresh as to the 165s.

 

[Anonymous10]

More tables presumably

Hopefully they'll do that with extra power sockets fitted.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Hopefully they'll do that with extra power sockets fitted.

Doubt they’ll be any more sockets on a 166 they are already quite sluggish trains without diverting more power away from actually powering the train.

 

[jackot]

Doubt they’ll be any more sockets on a 166 they are already quite sluggish trains without diverting more power away from actually powering the train.

Yes. If they did add more power sockets the driver would probably have to announce to passengers to unplug their devices when setting off from a station in order to keep time, considering the 'speed' of the turbos
Reminds me of a friends' old Skoda Fabia, which would struggle to get up a hill if the aircon was on!

 

[Anonymous10]

Yes. If they did add more power sockets the driver would probably have to announce to passengers to unplug their devices when setting off from a station in order to keep time, considering the 'speed' of the turbos
Reminds me of a friends' old Skoda Fabia, which would struggle to get up a hill if the aircon was on!

Didnt realise the acceleration was quite that bad having used them 4 times