Ignored mg11?

[al_zaine]

Ok, you have probably had many people asking about fines on here but have you ever had someone who was cautioned for not having a ticket and 2months later still not receiving a fine?
Basically I was on a train(for the duration of 3 small stops at 7:30am) with no ticket or money(Jan 19th) so I couldn't pay the on the spot fine and gave all my correct details under caution and then carried on with my day. Roughly 2 weeks later I received mail from national express for me to simply confirm I was the person which I was so I filled it in although I chose not to add anything extra in regards to defending myself, I just confirmed I was who I was.
I basically filled it in and sent it back the same day and have been waiting for some form of a response ever since, more than likely a fine.
As the weeks went by I wondered if maybe it had gotten lost in the post or they sent me something which had gotten lost in the post so I called the National Rail customer relations line and spoke to them many times in the recent weeks. The most they've done is call the revenue team on their side and called back saying that they are swamped and that they will get round to it but still nothing. I called again today and was told that its possible they decided not to take further action lol. I highly doubt this.
What do you think is going on here and what do you recommend I do? I have just discovered the contact number for the IRCS, should I call them?
My main concern here is only that they will try and stitch me up and what would have been a £50 fine could become a £300 fine or something. I told the woman I spoke to on the phone that I wanted them to be aware I was making an official inquiry and she said not to worry as they keep records of it all anyway.
What should I do? just carry on with my life and see what happens?
Kind regards.

 

[island]

This will not lead to you getting a fine in the post; it'll go down one of three roads. Either they'll decide not to pursue it (and may or may not tell you about this), they'll prosecute under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which will involve a court appearance and a probable fine, or they'll cock up and not do anything until the statute of limitations is out (unlikely).

Being on a train with no ticket or means to pay is unfortunately a pretty big deal, as it's trivially easy for them to prove that you intended to avoid paying your fare.

 

[al_zaine]

Given the period of time passed what do you suspect has happened?
If I was called to court would I go to prison for being on a train without a ticket for 3 stops?

 

[First class]

Given the period of time passed what do you suspect has happened?
If I was called to court would I go to prison for being on a train without a ticket for 3 stops?

You can be sentenced to prison, although it is very unlikely for such a straightforward (first?) offence.

My experience of Revenue Protection tells me that most courts punish as follows (no ticket, no money):


Conditional Discharge, Compensation to TOC (usually fare owed), Prosecution Costs. Total payable about £250.00. Possibly a victim surcharge fee also of £15.

or

Community Order, Compensation to TOC, Prosecution Costs + victim surcharge fee.

Either way, you will probably be convicted of one (or more) of the following:

Regulation of Railways Act 1889

Section 5 (1) Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in the case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine.

Section 5 (3) (a) If any person travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine.

Fraud Act 2006 offences:

Fraud by False Representation Section 2 (depending on what you said during caution)

Theft Act 1968 - various offences.

Railway Byelaws

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter
any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a
valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity
when asked to do so by an authorised person

 

[al_zaine]

Seeing as its nearly been 2months since does that mean they haven't followed up with it or am I getting my hopes up and can still most likely expect a court summons?
Is there anyone I can contact to find out about this like the IRCS or should I just leave it and wait it out?

 

[First class]

These solicitors offer a free initial consultation:

http://www.grayhooperholt.co.uk/railway-fare-evasion.html

2 months isn't THAT long by railway terms. Worse still, they could have written to you and Royal Mail has lost letter etc...

 

[island]

IRCAS won't come into it; they only do penalty fares.

You could contact NXEA, but you risk alerting them to the fact that they have forgotten about you!

 

[Chapeltom]

One of those situations where your damned if you do act and as other posters have suggest alerting NXEA who may have forgotten you. But by not acting you could be getting in worse problems.

I would personally wait until they make contact and if they don't, if its not your problem.

 

[BestWestern]

One of those situations where your damned if you do act and as other posters have suggest alerting NXEA who may have forgotten you. But by not acting you could be getting in worse problems.

I would personally wait until they make contact and if they don't, if its not your problem.

You won't get into any further trouble by not acting; the ToC have your details and it is up to them to further the process. You have responded correctly to their correspondance requesting confirmation of your details, you aren't trying to deceive or avoid them, you have even made enquiries about the progress of the matter. So they cannot possibly acuse you of any further wrongdoing. If, as you have been told, they are swamped with cases then yours will more than likely be at the bottom of the list, as it sounds as though the fare owed will be minimal. They may even choose not to progress it further if they are really short of manpower, but you'll just have to wait and see. I wouldn't make any further contact, you have done your bit and it is now very firmly in their court.

Of course, I'd have to add the inevitable line about not being in that position in the first place, but judging by your twitchiness it does sound like lesson learned! Just leave them to get in touch, or indeed not, as the case may be.

 

[222007]

With my TOC we have up to 6months for the offence to be heard in court (assuming the TOC decides thats the course of action there taking). The last time i was at court for no ticket no money the outcome was £150 fine compensation to my TOC (around £40 iirc) £50 cost's plus the £15 victim charge. I must add the fine and cost's were reduces on that occasion but cant give details why.

Just give it time but the best advice i can give is don't do it again.

 

[al_zaine]

Thanks for all the replies people, I really appreciate it and I hear exactly what you're saying. Its probably best now just to leave it and get on with my life. If I receive a court summons then I do, there's not much more I can do.
222007 You say you have up to 6months for the offense to be heard in court (assuming the TOC decides that's the course of action there taking). Are you saying I could be complete unaware of the fact they will be taking me to court until possibly 6month? or is the 6months just the time it usually takes to get you in to see a judge and they usually inform you of the court summons within that 6month period? I'm confused.
Also you said that the LAST time you was at court for no ticket no money the outcome was £150 fine compensation to my TOC (around £40 iirc) £50 cost's plus the £15 victim charge. Does this mean you have been to court more than once for no ticket/no money?
Anyway, kinds regards to you all and I will update you on what transpires.

 

[island]

Thanks for all the replies people, I really appreciate it and I hear exactly what you're saying. Its probably best now just to leave it and get on with my life. If I receive a court summons then I do, there's not much more I can do.
222007 You say you have up to 6months for the offense to be heard in court (assuming the TOC decides that's the course of action there taking). Are you saying I could be complete unaware of the fact they will be taking me to court until possibly 6month? or is the 6months just the time it usually takes to get you in to see a judge and they usually inform you of the court summons within that 6month period? I'm confused.

My understanding is that they have to issue the summons within 6 months (due to statute of limitations) but the actual court date might be outside that due to court congestion.

Also you said that the LAST time you was at court for no ticket no money the outcome was £150 fine compensation to my TOC (around £40 iirc) £50 cost's plus the £15 victim charge. Does this mean you have been to court more than once for no ticket/no money?

Judging from his tagline, he has been to court several times in connection with ticketless travel, on the prosecution side

Anyway, kinds regards to you all and I will update you on what transpires.

 

[jon0844]

If it can take 6 months and you've only waited 2 - it's more likely they've not written to you yet, as against there being no contact/letter lost in the post.

 

[222007]

222007 You say you have up to 6months for the offense to be heard in court (assuming the TOC decides that's the course of action there taking). Are you saying I could be complete unaware of the fact they will be taking me to court until possibly 6month? or is the 6months just the time it usually takes to get you in to see a judge and they usually inform you of the court summons within that 6month period? I'm confused

You will always be notified by the relavant TOC that they are taking you to court (unless royal mail looses your post) island has states the summons should always be issued within 6months. I know its easy to say but dont worry too much as this stage.

Also you said that the LAST time you was at court for no ticket no money the outcome was £150 fine compensation to my TOC (around £40 iirc) £50 cost's plus the £15 victim charge. Does this mean you have been to court more than once for no ticket/no money?

Personally i have only had to attend court on one occasion however i've had many people i've reported end up in court with a successfull outcome for my TOC. The average fine being around £350 thats without costs, compensation (the train fare outstanding) and the victim surcharge being added.

 

[Stigy]

Can't really add much here, just to say again that 2-months really isn't a great length of time thus far I'm afraid. Some TOCs (depending on workload) wouldn't have made initial contact with you yet!

The maximum penalty is £1,000 fine or 3-months in prison for sebsequent offences, but realistically you could be the most persistant fare evader in the world and you'll not be sent down for it as there's not enough space for what in the grand scheme of things, is quite a trivial matter. The norm is £350 fine plus costs, compensation and victim surcharge, depending on your means. It's not uncommon for a successful prosection to be worth £550 in total. This is assuming you're charged under S5.3(a) Regulation of Railways Act 1889. If a byelaw was chraged (18.1 in your case), the penalty would be much less (typically £150 fine means dependant) and it's not imprisonable or recordable, but still criminal (RRA offences are PNC recordable, Byelaws are not). You'll more than likely be charged with the former, as your intention to avoid payment has clearly been ascertained.

You can avoid court by offering to pay the TOCs reasonable admin charges in order to remain out of court, although they are not under any obligation to accept your offer and may still wish to prosecute. Not sure whether you'll be able to do so, but it'll save you a crimanl record if they accept your offer! Worth taking in to account. Bear in mind you can settle out of court legally up until the court day, but it's up to the TOC to accept your offer and nothing to do with the court.

 

[al_zaine]

You can avoid court by offering to pay the TOCs reasonable admin charges in order to remain out of court, although they are not under any obligation to accept your offer and may still wish to prosecute. Not sure whether you'll be able to do so, but it'll save you a crimanl record if they accept your offer! Worth taking in to account. Bear in mind you can settle out of court legally up until the court day, but it's up to the TOC to accept your offer and nothing to do with the court.

So I would get in touch with the TOC in order to settle it out of court when I receive the court summons in the post? I assume they will have a contact number or address on the letter they will send me.
Also I would like to mention that I am unemployed and claiming JSA. Do you think they will take this into consideration when deciding whether to prosecute or not?

 

[Stigy]

So I would get in touch with the TOC in order to settle it out of court when I receive the court summons in the post? I assume they will have a contact number or address on the letter they will send me.
Also I would like to mention that I am unemployed and claiming JSA. Do you think they will take this into consideration when deciding whether to prosecute or not?

As I said, technically you can offer to settle any time from the moment you know they wish to proceed to court, to the trial date. Was the letter you received asking stating that they intend to prosecute you? If so, you can offer any time you wish. Having said that, the fact that you are on JSA might suggest that any offer you make might not be viable, although it's not unknown for a TOC to allow say, three installments, although this is unlikely I would imagine. Bear in mind that reasonable admin costs are usually between £100 and £175.

 

[al_zaine]

I have not received a letter with any court date. All I have received was a slip which I had to confirm I was the person who was on the train at the time and it said if I wanted to say anything extra in my defense then I could write it up on the back of the slip, which I chose not to.

 

[Stigy]

I have not received a letter with any court date. All I have received was a slip which I had to confirm I was the person who was on the train at the time and it said if I wanted to say anything extra in my defense then I could write it up on the back of the slip, which I chose not to.

Although not a summons, that letter clearly stated that they intended to take matters further, therefore you can ask to settle the matter administratively any time you wish. Who knows, they might suddenly want to speak to you now! :roll:

 

[RPI]

If they've got as far as sending you a verification letter then they won't have forgotten about you! I should expect a summons in the next couple of months.

 

[al_zaine]

Ok, when I get this court summons do I have the option of not attending and just pleading guilty and let them deal with it.
Whether this has an impact on the outcome of the trail is not the problem its just I suffer from Panic/anxiety attacks and even though this whole matter is rather minor its still stressful and come the court day I would be a bag of nerves.
Now I know there's some of you that will take joy in that and will tell me I have to go but please, be honest, I've heard you don't have to attend the actual trail and they'll just inform you of the outcome.

 

[222007]

Ok, when I get this court summons do I have the option of not attending and just pleading guilty and let them deal with it.

You can choose to write to the court offering your plee so to speak with any mitigating circumstances the fact your on JSA for instance although whether it makes a difference i dont know . the case i went court with the person wrote in to the court but did not attend so that can be done

 

[jon0844]

When I got done for speeding, I pleaded guilty in advance and didn't attend court. I then found out how many points I got (6) and the fine (£350) afterwards.

I'm pretty sure it didn't influence the outcome - and probably saved time.

 

[MikeWh]

... and even though this whole matter is rather minor ...

I'm not sure that I'd describe having a criminal record as minor. In fact I would definitely be offering to settle out of court if summoned. You will close so many job opportunities forever if you get a record, unless of course you already have one I suppose.

 

[Jonny]

IRCAS won't come into it; they only do penalty fares.

You could contact NXEA, but you risk alerting them to the fact that they have forgotten about you!

Check with a Solicitor first, I'm not qualified but I do know the law so here's my "six pence worth"; I may be repeating other things but here is my bit...

Wait until after six months - then "remind" them - that's the time-out for a Magistrates Court summons - then it is too late for summary-only (Magistrates Court) offences - NB Section 127 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980. Trouble is that, by your description, there is four months to go before the time-out kicks in.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not sure that I'd describe having a criminal record as minor. In fact I would definitely be offering to settle out of court if summoned. You will close so many job opportunities forever if you get a record, unless of course you already have one I suppose.

Stage two is the begging letter; only use this in response to a summons though and I'm afraid that I'm not much good at writing them. You could point out that any conviction risks making your job prospects worse, which will then cause problems for other people in turn, including the taxpayer who might then have to pay you more benefit than it would otherwise.

Also, if they choose to only use the bylaws (the easy way for NXEA), bring a Human Rights Act challenge against the bylaws (the threshold for success against any set of bylaws is relatively low). The expense and hassle for NXEA, who might not be able to claim it back, is something that would turn the tables quite nicely.

You could, if they choose to summons you and then disregard a begging letter, point that out and that it would not only risk impairing your employment and thus costing the economy in general, there will be the loss of goodwill or even ill-will towards National Express in general, not only the rail company NXEA but its parent (National Express as in the Coach Company, that runs NXEA). Of course it is vitally important that you contact a lawyer as well if this goes that far.

 

[jon0844]

My heart would sink if someone starts to bring Human Rights into a case like this! And telling them you won't travel again when you didn't pay in the first place? That sounds like a rather odd threat to me.

I certainly wouldn't miss a fare evader on my line. I am not sure many TOCs would.

 

[Jonny]

My heart would sink if someone starts to bring Human Rights into a case like this! And telling them you won't travel again when you didn't pay in the first place? That sounds like a rather odd threat to me.

I certainly wouldn't miss a fare evader on my line. I am not sure many TOCs would.

Personally, I think that sometimes the bylaws are over-used; and that they are used as a threat more than they should be. I think that the TOCs do need to have their wings clipped - prosecution should be a last resort for serious and/or repeated cases. It is actually some of the other bylaws that I wouldn't mind seeing the back of - remember that bylaws tend to be used against paying passengers as well as non-payers. For a service that is about as optional as "Hobson's choice", the bylaws in general - some of the clauses that aren't about tickets - are bordering on unduly restrictive.

Although the OP is in a sticky situation, I think to proceed to prosecution would be harsh or even vicious. I would use "the frighteners" instead to make sure there isn't a repeat episode. The trouble is that, in the future, how much money might he have?

Also, any other organisation that didn't have the bylaws would have to use the County Court (Civil) system - perhaps the TOCs would be better advised to use that anyway - a County Court Judgement unpaid after 28 days messes up a credit rating which is probably a better way to get through to some people.

 

[Stigy]

Although the OP is in a sticky situation, I think to proceed to prosecution would be harsh or even vicious. I would use "the frighteners" instead to make sure there isn't a repeat episode. The trouble is that, in the future, how much money might he have?

Can I ask why you think prosecuting a case of blatant fare evasion is harsh and/or vicious? To say this will be prosecuted using a Byelaw I think is wishful thinking in itself.

 

[jon0844]

Is it unfair to punish someone for breaking the law? And if so, what's the criteria. Poor = okay. Rich = asking for it. Or is it the other way around? I forget the rules now.

Harsh? Vicious? Erm, no the law is being applied equally for all - as it should be. The fine in court may well take into account circumstances anyway.

 

[tony_mac]

you could certainly argue that it is harsh.
It seems that for almost anything else of a similar value, a caution or fixed penalty would normally be the worst outcome for a 1st offence.