Northern locking rear carriages out-of-use

[northwichcat]

On the Northwich line we're starting to get fed up of 4 carriage trains turning up with the rear carriage locked out-of-use, then a 2 carriage train on the following service. It sounds like the rear carriages are only being locked out-of-use because of a change in working practice that was introduced last year. While Northern can't seem to organise the formations in a way that ensures the passengers in the 3rd carriage always have access to a toilet, without alighting the train at the next station and then boarding another carriage.

We were told for the past few years that Network Rail needed to upgrade foot level crossings before we could have an enhanced service. I notice they've done this but now it seems we can't even have 4 carriages on an hourly service.

What's actual the reason for this negative change? And why haven't they started using 3 carriage trains instead? 3 carriages every hour would be better than an arrangement with 3/4 carriages open one hour, then just 2 the next. Plus, it would be much greener too!

 

[MarkE8]

On the Northwich line we're starting to get fed up of 4 carriage trains turning up with the rear carriage locked out-of-use, then a 2 carriage train on the following service. It sounds like the rear carriages are only being locked out-of-use because of a change in working practice that was introduced last year. While Northern can't seem to organise the formations in a way that ensures the passengers in the 3rd carriage always have access to a toilet, without alighting the train at the next station and then boarding another carriage.

We were told for the past few years that Network Rail needed to upgrade foot level crossings before we could have an enhanced service. I notice they've done this but now it seems we can't even have 4 carriages on an hourly service.

What's actual the reason for this negative change? And why haven't they started using 3 carriage trains instead? 3 carriages every hour would be better than an arrangement with 3/4 carriages open one hour, then just 2 the next. Plus, it would be much greener too!

All station platforms from Manchester to Northwich can take 4 carriages. The rest can only take 3 safely, until Chester. So the 4th carriage is locked. Pointless I agree in running a 4 car unit when only 3 are useable.

 

[Snow1964]

Surely if the train is formed with toilet in 4th carriage then if they want to lock one off, it should be 1st carriage, with driver adjusting the stopping points accordingly. I realise that can't be done if there is a red signal at end of short platform.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Or you just do what scotrail do in Ayrshire routes and make announcement in the rear coach for people to move forward

 

[sportzbar]

Surely if the train is formed with toilet in 4th carriage then if they want to lock one off, it should be 1st carriage, with driver adjusting the stopping points accordingly. I realise that can't be done if there is a red signal at end of short platform.

Can't be done unless a risk assessment and new stop boards are installed at the required stations. Sounds simple but it's really not. Other wise it's classed as a station overrun....

 

[skyhigh]

Or you just do what scotrail do in Ayrshire routes and make announcement in the rear coach for people to move forward

No you can't, as the units aren't fitted with ASDO so you have to lock the doors out of use. If you lock the doors out there's no emergency exits as the door releases won't work so the coach has to be out of use.

 

[Snow1964]

Can't be done unless a risk assessment and new stop boards are installed at the required stations. Sounds simple but it's really not. Other wise it's classed as a station overrun....

Thanks, my misunderstanding, I had been under impression from a rather old book that station overruns only applied to carriages in use going beyond platform or a stop signal, not out of use or non passenger vehicles and locos ahead of the carriages.

But I suppose if not permitted then forming a train with toilet in 4th car, which is then locked out of use should fall foul of a rule too regarding assessibility etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But I suppose if not permitted then forming a train with toilet in 4th car, which is then locked out of use should fall foul of a rule too regarding assessibility etc.

Unfortunately, despite a whole range of disabiliities and age related conditions requiring frequent toilet use, UK law totally overlooks provision as a necessity, it concentrates only on there needing to be a wheelchair one if there's any, whereas it totally disregards the much larger number of people with a disability requiring easy access to one. There's barely a single thing that hits more protected characteristics than a lack of toilet provision - age, sex* and multiple disabilities all in one.

If Northern needs 3 car units it can form them - 15x vehicles can be chopped and changed as necessary, each is independent.

* A bloke can in an emergency situation use a bush or bottle for some toilet purposes. A woman can't.

 

[skyhigh]

But I suppose if not permitted then forming a train with toilet in 4th car, which is then locked out of use should fall foul of a rule too regarding assessibility etc.

There will be 2 toilets on a 4 car set used on this line, so even if 1 is in the coach that's locked out there will still be a toilet available (admittedly there's unlikely to be a through gangway from the 3rd coach)

 

[northwichcat]

All station platforms from Manchester to Northwich can take 4 carriages. The rest can only take 3 safely, until Chester. So the 4th carriage is locked. Pointless I agree in running a 4 car unit when only 3 are useable.

At Northwich and Lostock Gralam you can see that they prepare stop boards for different types of formations. 2 car 150 stop, 2 car 156 stop, 4 car 150 and 4 car 156 stop. I've boarded and alighted 4 carriage formations numerous times at Greenbank without any issue. If it's a 4 car 156 then the driver has been very careful to stop in exactly the right place, that requires the front door to be at the very end of the flat bit of the platform, just before it slopes down.

Surely if the train is formed with toilet in 4th carriage then if they want to lock one off, it should be 1st carriage, with driver adjusting the stopping points accordingly. I realise that can't be done if there is a red signal at end of short platform.

There will be 2 toilets on a 4 car set used on this line, so even if 1 is in the coach that's locked out there will still be a toilet available (admittedly there's unlikely to be a through gangway from the 3rd coach)

I should have perhaps clarified that Northern use a random mixture of 150s and 156s on the line. If it's 2 x 150s, the guard will be in the front cab of the rear unit. Then we also have the scanerio where if the toilet is in the 3rd carriage, the carriage locked out-of-use has the most seats, so it's far from ideal either way.

The problem with the toilet being in the other unit is what happens if the train breaks down or gets stuck at a red signal for 50 minutes.

Some of Northern's brand new 195s on the route would be a welcome sight and they'd resolve the issues that seem to have come up.

Unfortunately, despite a whole range of disabiliities and age related conditions requiring frequent toilet use, UK law totally overlooks provision as a necessity, it concentrates only on there needing to be a wheelchair one if there's any, whereas it totally disregards the much larger number of people with a disability requiring easy access to one. There's barely a single thing that hits more protected characteristics than a lack of toilet provision - age, sex* and multiple disabilities all in one.

If Northern needs 3 car units it can form them - 15x vehicles can be chopped and changed as necessary, each is independent.

* A bloke can in an emergency situation use a bush or bottle for some toilet purposes. A woman can't.

The Equalities Act talks about reasonable adjustments. There's probably an endless list of what that could mean. For example, say the lifts at Manchester Piccadilly platforms 13 and 14 are out-of-order and a disabled person has an advance ticket for a Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly service that goes into platform 14, while there's another service that goes into platform 8. There's an obvious solution there but the law isn't going to specifically state exactly what needs to be done.

 

[_toommm_]

No you can't, as the units aren't fitted with ASDO so you have to lock the doors out of use. If you lock the doors out there's no emergency exits as the door releases won't work so the coach has to be out of use.

And the only other method of operation is for the guard to open their local door then use the butterfly switches on the outside for all the platformed doors. It’s a very slow method that is occasionally used on the Rose Hill Marple services when they’re done as four car 150 and/or 156 combos.

 

[LOL The Irony]

All station platforms from Manchester to Northwich can take 4 carriages. The rest can only take 3 safely, until Chester. So the 4th carriage is locked. Pointless I agree in running a 4 car unit when only 3 are useable.

Southbound Ashley can only take 3 as well.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

No you can't, as the units aren't fitted with ASDO so you have to lock the doors out of use. If you lock the doors out there's no emergency exits as the door releases won't work so the coach has to be out of use.

Is it that exspensive to fit ASDO

 

[northwichcat]

Is it that exspensive to fit ASDO

I don't know the cost but we are talking about trains that are 35 years old being used on lines that have seen a big increase in patronage in recent years. The cost in comparison to the remaining life of the train might be an issue.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't know the cost but we are talking about trains that are 35 years old being used on lines that have seen a big increase in patronage in recent years. The cost in comparison to the remaining life of the train might be an issue.

That creates a different dilemma, know the trains need replacing soon, have growth, do you make new trains big enough for more growth, if so is ASDO or platform extensions the way forward. If it is looking like 4car platforms will be needed, then isn't it a better option to do it now, rather than locking carriages out of use when they are being operated anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

That creates a different dilemma, know the trains need replacing soon, have growth, do you make new trains big enough for more growth, if so is ASDO or platform extensions the way forward. If it is looking like 4car platforms will be needed, then isn't it a better option to do it now, rather than locking carriages out of use when they are being operated anyway.

The sensible way of allowing for growth is the postponed service level enhancement. They were written in a previous franchise agreement but we've heard excuse after excuse for them not hapenning. Everything from GWR haven't released enough units in time, Network Rail were too ambitious with what could be achieved at Manchester, farm level crossings needing upgrading first etc.

 

[TUC]

Unfortunately, despite a whole range of disabiliities and age related conditions requiring frequent toilet use, UK law totally overlooks provision as a necessity, it concentrates only on there needing to be a wheelchair one if there's any, whereas it totally disregards the much larger number of people with a disability requiring easy access to one. There's barely a single thing that hits more protected characteristics than a lack of toilet provision - age, sex* and multiple disabilities all in one.

If Northern needs 3 car units it can form them - 15x vehicles can be chopped and changed as necessary, each is independent.

* A bloke can in an emergency situation use a bush or bottle for some toilet purposes. A woman can't.

I don't think UK law refers to wheelchairs any more than toilets. The emphasis is upon reasonable adjustment, and toilet provision comes into those considerations as much as anything else.

 

[Efini92]

The problem with the toilet being in the other unit is what happens if the train breaks down or gets stuck at a red signal for 50 minutes.

It would be no different to the CET tank being full and the toilet locking itself out of use.

And the only other method of operation is for the guard to open their local door then use the butterfly switches on the outside for all the platformed doors. It’s a very slow method that is occasionally used on the Rose Hill Marple services when they’re done as four car 150 and/or 156 combos.

When I was a guard we used to lock the doors that wouldn’t fit and usher people forward who wanted to get off.
But that was ruined by an incident on a 156.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

And the only other method of operation is for the guard to open their local door then use the butterfly switches on the outside for all the platformed doors. It’s a very slow method that is occasionally used on the Rose Hill Marple services when they’re done as four car 150 and/or 156 combos.

I saw that happen once at Wigan North Western on 2*2 car 158s when they stopped just a bit too far back so the very back door was beyond the platform, I was quite confused, since I was at the very front, and therefore the doors took a good while to open.

 

[jawr256]

And the only other method of operation is for the guard to open their local door then use the butterfly switches on the outside for all the platformed doors. It’s a very slow method that is occasionally used on the Rose Hill Marple services when they’re done as four car 150 and/or 156 combos.

Conveniently for this thread, this happened to me at Mouldsworth this Monday when alighting from 2x class 150 (ref: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y42222/2023-03-06/detailed). I noticed the 18:25 also had a long dwell recorded at Mouldsworth and four cars so it may have applied to that one too.

 

[northwichcat]

It would be no different to the CET tank being full and the toilet locking itself out of use.

I've seen locked out-of-use train toilets getting opened in emergency situations. An unflushed toilet is better than human waste or vomit on the train floor or seats.

I saw that happen once at Wigan North Western on 2*2 car 158s when they stopped just a bit too far back so the very back door was beyond the platform, I was quite confused, since I was at the very front, and therefore the doors took a good while to open.

In situations like that some guards do announce what's happening and ask alighting passengers to move to the middle of the train but announcements aren't always audible to everyone due to noise from other passengers and faulty microphones and speakers.

 

[D6130]

but announcements aren't always audible to everyone due to noise from other passengers and faulty microphones and speakers.

....and people wearing headphones who are completely oblivious to the outside world (....or inside the train world for that matter!)

 

[najaB]

A bloke can in an emergency situation use a bush or bottle for some toilet purposes. A woman can't.

Not as easily, but they definitely can.

 

[Leyland155]

Conveniently for this thread, this happened to me at Mouldsworth this Monday when alighting from 2x class 150 (ref: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:Y42222/2023-03-06/detailed). I noticed the 18:25 also had a long dwell recorded at Mouldsworth and four cars so it may have applied to that one too.

Mouldsworth down (Chester-bound) platform is unique on the line. It's the only station where the guard needs to manually open each passenger door for a 4-car service, even if the rear coach is locked out. So that will lead to the increased dwell time

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Mouldsworth down (Chester-bound) platform is unique on the line. It's the only station where the guard needs to manually open each passenger door for a 4-car service, even if the rear coach is locked out.

Why so this particular practice (at Mouldsworth)?

 

[AMD]

Why so this particular practice (at Mouldsworth)?

The down platform is only 51m long, a 4 car train (even 3 cars) is too long, and in this situation full release cannot be given as the legacy fleet (150/156) do not have selective door operation. Therefore the method of work is to manually operate any door accomodated on the platform.

 

[northwichcat]

The down platform is only 51m long, a 4 car train (even 3 cars) is too long, and in this situation full release cannot be given as the legacy fleet (150/156) do not have selective door operation. Therefore the method of work is to manually operate any door accomodated on the platform.

Is the down platform the one in the Chester or Manchester direction?

I've found someone's video of a 150+156 stopping at Mouldsworth in the Chester direction and a 150+150 in the Manchester direction

It looks like the driver purposely stops further back in the Chester direction, so the driving cab is before the bridge, rather than after the bridge - just before the signal. There also seems to be an unmaintained section of the platform in the Manchester direction, where they could remove the weeds and resurface it.

 

[Leyland155]

Is the down platform the one in the Chester or Manchester direction?

I've found someone's video of a 150+156 stopping at Mouldsworth in the Chester direction and a 150+150 in the Manchester direction

It looks like the driver purposely stops further back in the Chester direction, so the driving cab is before the bridge, rather than after the bridge - just before the signal. There also seems to be an unmaintained section of the platform in the Manchester direction, where they could remove the weeds and resurface it.

Chester-bound is the Down platform, Manchester-bound the Up. Drivers are required to stop the train at the prohibition sign/ S car stop just before the bridge on the Down platform, as shown in that video. The reason being is that the platform surface beyond the sign is uneven, and is not currently maintained.

 

[Sheridan]

Chester-bound is the Down platform, Manchester-bound the Up. Drivers are required to stop the train at the prohibition sign/ S car stop just before the bridge on the Down platform, as shown in that video. The reason being is that the platform surface beyond the sign is uneven, and is not currently maintained.

This is veering slightly off-topic, but when I was at Mouldsworth last month I noticed that neither of the platforms has a ‘passengers must not pass this point’ sign at the Chester end. Is this because passengers rarely venture beyond the bridge and so it’s not felt necessary? (I had half an hour to kill so I did wander down the whole length of the platform, managing not to go down the ramp despite the lack of signage!)

 

[Sheffcaster202]

* A bloke can in an emergency situation use a bush or bottle for some toilet purposes. A woman can't.

Some of the ‘ladies’ on the late night trains I’ve worked will prove otherwise…I’ve seen some things that still haunt me now