Can the class 701s be reformed as 8-car units?

[JonathanH]

Of course this is post-covid hindsight, but it seems that a lot of time, effort and money ended up being wasted on the Waterloo suburban side remodelling, producing a layout that's apparently more awkward to operate than its predecessor (from comments read on here a while ago). The motivation, enabling 10 coach metro area trains, only lasted a short time until the 456s were withdrawn and scrapped. When (or if?) the 701s ever enter service the longer platforms will be fully used again, but is the extra capacity still needed?

My impression is that 8 car 2x455 sets are quite adequate even with the present reduced timetables, but I no longer use those services myself so I may be mistaken there.

The post above got me thinking as to whether the class 701s could be largely rebuilt as 8-car units, and therefore go some way to both 455 / 458 / 707 replacement on SWR and taking out a lot of Networkers on the Southeastern side.

There are 60 10-car and 30 5-car units in the class 701 order. If each of the 10-car units were reduced to 8-car, to match the new levels of demand on SWR, then that would yield 120 coaches. There would be a need for 90 coaches to make all the 5-car units up to 8-car, so I guess 15 units could stay 10-car to replace the 707s and some of the 458 workings that remain 10-car.

After withdrawals, SWR have about 12 707s, 30 458s and 80 455s to replace. That is roughly 40 8-car trains and 21 10-car trains to replace, so under this plan there must be about 30 or so spare 8-car units which could be freed up by such a reformation. That would take out roughly half the Networkers on the Southeastern side.

 

[RobShipway]

Admittedly I have not lived in Berkshire since 2017, which is pre - covid. However, during busy periods on the Reading to London Waterloo route, you would be lucky to find a seat at times in getting on at places like Martins Heron even with 10 coach trains.

I know at times post Covid that SWR have run not only ten coach class 458 units, but also 8 car class 450 units along the route. I would be intrigued, with numbers supposedly rising in people travelling on trains as to how much seat capacity is available in rush hour periods between say 6am - 10am with trains leaving Reading for London Waterloo at stations such as Martins Heron and Ascot?

I am presuming that some of the 21 10-car units would server on the Reading - Waterloo trains? Where would the others serve, as you would need a few of those units on Waterloo - Portsmouth services as well, during rush hour periods?

If the 10 car where on the Reading and Portsmouth routes, this would leave the 8 car units doing services, where at time I believe you have three class 455 units coupled together doing 12 car services?

 

[Brubulus]

The post above got me thinking as to whether the class 701s could be largely rebuilt as 8-car units, and therefore go some way to both 455 / 458 / 707 replacement on SWR and taking out a lot of Networkers on the Southeastern side.

There are 60 10-car and 30 5-car units in the class 701 order. If each of the 10-car units were reduced to 8-car, to match the new levels of demand on SWR, then that would yield 120 coaches. There would be a need for 90 coaches to make all the 5-car units up to 8-car, so I guess 15 units could stay 10-car to replace the 707s and some of the 458 workings that remain 10-car.

After withdrawals, SWR have about 12 707s, 30 458s and 80 455s to replace. That is roughly 40 8-car trains and 21 10-car trains to replace, so under this plan there must be about 30 or so spare 8-car units which could be freed up by such a reformation. That would take out roughly half the Networkers on the Southeastern side.

That sounds about right, however Southeastern seem to be able to end up with a huge number of relatively small fleets to replace the Networkers. They could magic up 36 387s, and the 30 379s could be fitted with third rail equipment, meaning that 66 4 car units could go to Southeastern. Further the 387s could go to Southern, with Southeastern possibly gaining a few more 377s, which means Southeastern will have a fleet of 375s, 376s,377s,379s,395s,707s and 701s. The 376s, 701s and 707s can all be pooled for operation purposes, but not maintainance, while the 375s,377s and 379s are all pretty similar. The 395s have always been different to the rest of the national fleet, let alone SE!

 

[AzureOtsu]

This seems far too complicated, why is there a need for 8 car 701s when most suburban routes out of London have a 10 car limit? It's taking a step back and just going to subtract capacity, it would make more sense for southeastern just to order more 701s to the swr spec to take over the 465/465/466 allocated routes

 

[WizCastro197]

This seems far too complicated, why is there a need for 8 car 701s when most suburban routes out of London have a 10 car limit? It's taking a step back and just going to subtract capacity, it would make more sense for southeastern just to order more 701s to the swr spec to take over the 465/465/466 allocated routes

You aren't 'subtracting capacity' at all from what it currently is, as most suburban SWR trains are formed of 8/10 coaches, likewise with Southeastern, except some are formed of 10.

 

[bramling]

You aren't 'subtracting capacity' at all from what it currently is, as most suburban SWR trains are formed of 8/10 coaches, likewise with Southeastern, except some are formed of 10.

I’d say it’s rather risky to do anything which would lock these routes into fixed-formation 8-car trains at this point.

The big lesson from history in the 80s was don’t strip out capacity when it’s not needed in a way which makes it difficult or expensive to put it back when demand increases.

Some of the fleet decisions being made at the moment may well introduce significant headaches down the line, albeit they almost certainly won’t be this government’s problem.

 

[Goldfish62]

I would be intrigued, with numbers supposedly rising in people travelling on trains as to how much seat capacity is available in rush hour periods between say 6am - 10am with trains leaving Reading for London Waterloo at stations such as Martins Heron and Ascot?

Apart from the 0709 from Reading, which is often standing room only in the front unit after Bracknell there's plenty of capacity these days, despite the service being cut by 50%. Most AM Peak up services are 2 x 458, while 450s tend to dominate the rest of the day. I think we saw the peak of demand around 2016/early 2017. Since then it's been constant disruption with strikes, Covid, more strikes and increasingly poor reliability.

 

[RobShipway]

Apart from the 0709 from Reading, which is often standing room only in the front unit after Bracknell there's plenty of capacity these days, despite the service being cut by 50%. Most AM Peak up services are 2 x 458, while 450s tend to dominate the rest of the day. I think we saw the peak of demand around 2016/early 2017. Since then it's been constant disruption with strikes, Covid, more strikes and increasingly poor reliability.

That is kinda of what I thought might be the case, plus the fact that I have no doubt that since Covid struck in 2020 there is far more people working from home permanently where they can now, then say back between 2007 - 2017 when I lived not far from Martrins Heron station. This is why I don't believe that SWR will use the 10 car 701/0 on the Reading to London Waterloo accept for services such as the 0709 from Reading. The rest of the day would some of the 5 car 701/1 units working the services between Reading and Waterloo until the evening rush.

Other than possibly some services that maybe done by 10 car class 458 trains or 12 car class 455 units, what is the majority of the 60 701/0 units going to do, once they have been introduced?

 

[43096]

That is kinda of what I thought might be the case, plus the fact that I have no doubt that since Covid struck in 2020 there is far more people working from home permanently where they can now, then say back between 2007 - 2017 when I lived not far from Martrins Heron station. This is why I don't believe that SWR will use the 10 car 701/0 on the Reading to London Waterloo accept for services such as the 0709 from Reading. The rest of the day would some of the 5 car 701/1 units working the services between Reading and Waterloo until the evening rush.

Other than possibly some services that maybe done by 10 car class 458 trains or 12 car class 455 units, what is the majority of the 60 701/0 units going to do, once they have been introduced?

South West Division/SWT/SWR have never operated 12-car 455s, except maybe in extremis. The longest has been part of 10-car formations with a 456 added.

 

[David Goddard]

Other than possibly some services that maybe done by 10 car class 458 trains or 12 car class 455 units, what is the majority of the 60 701/0 units going to do, once they have been introduced?

Notionally, the 60 units (600 cars) replace
91 Cl455 (364 cars), 24 Cl456 (48 cars) and 36 Cl458 (180 cars), a total of 592
The 30 five car sets are then LFL for the 707s

 

[JonathanH]

South West Division/SWT/SWR have never operated 12-car 455s, except maybe in extremis.

The extremis has, I think, included strikes in the 2000s when 455s operated 12-car to Basingstoke to provide maximum capacity, back when people had to go to offices to work.

 

[Goldfish62]

That is kinda of what I thought might be the case, plus the fact that I have no doubt that since Covid struck in 2020 there is far more people working from home permanently where they can now, then say back between 2007 - 2017 when I lived not far from Martrins Heron station. This is why I don't believe that SWR will use the 10 car 701/0 on the Reading to London Waterloo accept for services such as the 0709 from Reading. The rest of the day would some of the 5 car 701/1 units working the services between Reading and Waterloo until the evening rush.

8/10 car trains are required on Reading services throughout the day, seven days a week. Any less would lead to overcrowding. Remember the service level is now 2tph, not 4tph.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thirty 707s, thirty odd 376s, thirty 701s, and then whatever they replace the remaining Networkers with, all on pretty much the same Metro routes, sounds like an unnecessarily mixed bag there tbh.

 

[D365]

Thirty 707s, thirty odd 376s, thirty 701s, and then whatever they replace the remaining Networkers with, all on pretty much the same Metro routes, sounds like an unnecessarily mixed bag there tbh.

Sounds like the perfect Speculative scenario then!

 

[LUYMun]

Like what @AzureOtsu had said, reducing the 701s to four/eight car configurations would undermine the capacity upgrades that have taken place to accommodate 10 coach trains. Much better off ordering newer Aventra family fleets for the Southeastern region if that's what's concerning you.

 

[Snow1964]

I don't think loadings on inner and outer suburban services have dropped by same percentages.

From what I gather, much of the inner is still fairly busy, and probably reflects job type that can't be done from home.

Possibly still need 10cars on some services like Kingston loop

 

[Goldfish62]

I don't think loadings on inner and outer suburban services have dropped by same percentages.

From what I gather, much of the inner is still fairly busy, and probably reflects job type that can't be done from home.

Possibly still need 10cars on some services like Kingston loop

Yes, and the up AM Peak Reading services are often crush-loaded upon leaving Richmond.

 

[Mikey C]

Thirty 707s, thirty odd 376s, thirty 701s, and then whatever they replace the remaining Networkers with, all on pretty much the same Metro routes, sounds like an unnecessarily mixed bag there tbh.

And there would be something really bizarre with Southeastern ending up with a massive and varied selection of dedicated inner suburban trains, when Southern have an exclusively outer suburban 377 (and Turbostar) fleet, many operating inner London routes.

If anything Southern should get displaced 701 to operate these routes, enabling Southeastern to keep the 377s...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And there would be something really bizarre with Southeastern ending up with a massive and varied selection of dedicated inner suburban trains, when Southern have an exclusively outer suburban 377 (and Turbostar) fleet, many operating inner London routes.

If anything Southern should get displaced 701 to operate these routes, enabling Southeastern to keep the 377s...

But the key is in that word "exclusively." A uniform fleet has many advantages. I wouldn't say 377s are an issue on Metro, they just need more 8, 10 and 12 carriage formations which won't be possible until they get more Electrostars.

 

[Mikey C]

But the key is in that word "exclusively." A uniform fleet has many advantages. I wouldn't say 377s are an issue on Metro, they just need more 8, 10 and 12 carriage formations which won't be possible until they get more Electrostars.

There is an inconsistency though, as nobody would suggest using 450s for the SWR Metro routes or the higher density 375/9s for the Southeastern Metro routes.

 

[JonathanH]

There is an inconsistency though, as nobody would suggest using 450s for the SWR Metro routes or the higher density 375/9s for the Southeastern Metro routes.

450s were the mainstay of the Windsor lines for some time.

 

[RobShipway]

450s were the mainstay of the Windsor lines for some time.

They where also the mainstay for a while of the Reading - Waterloo lines as well.

 

[PGAT]

If anything Southern should get displaced 701 to operate these routes, enabling Southeastern to keep the 377s...

SouthEastern don’t need the 377s. They are perfectly content with their current fleet, and they still have networkers in storage and more 707s on the way…soon.

 

[Mikey C]

SouthEastern don’t need the 377s. They are perfectly content with their current fleet, and they still have networkers in storage and more 707s on the way…soon.

My point was replying to the idea of moving spare 701s across to Southeastern to help replace the Networkers.

As for the current situation, I'm sure the passengers having to travel well out into Kent on Networkers instead of 377s won't be perfectly content...

 

[Snow1964]

SouthEastern don’t need the 377s. They are perfectly content with their current fleet, and they still have networkers in storage and more 707s on the way…soon.

The missing 707s are part the SouthEastern fleet, but currently subleased to SWR to cover for not yet introduced 701s.

SouthEastern doesn't really need to do anything, and bringing in 377s (which are generally 18-20 years old) is probably just going to complicate any fleet renewals in few years time, and no real advantage.

 

[Mikey C]

The missing 707s are part the SouthEastern fleet, but currently subleased to SWR to cover for not yet introduced 701s.

SouthEastern doesn't really need to do anything, and bringing in 377s (which are generally 18-20 years old) is probably just going to complicate any fleet renewals in few years time, and no real advantage.

The borrowed 377s are far more suited for the routes operating out to Maidstone and Ashford than the Networkers though. Surely any Southeastern 377s would be replaced at the same time as the similar 375s, so not an issue.