Grand Central West Riding services deteriorating reliability: how could this be improved?

[M1544]

I’ve been thinking of booking a Bradford to London return with Grand Central but I am being put off due to the deteriorating reliability of services on this route this year.
Since Christmas it’s had been normal for one of the 4 returns to be a planned cancellation. So despite advertising 4 returns services only 3 have been running.

But today (8/3/23) has been a new low with not one service managing it all the way end to end in either we direction seemingly due to unit issues or planned cancellations.

From Bradford Int to Kings cross -
0655 cancelled unit issue
0758 planned cancel
1022 ran as far as Doncaster only
1450 started short from Wakefield.

Coming the other way
1057 Kx to Bradford cancelled
1456 planned cancel
1627 cancelled
1948 terminated short at Wakefield.

It feels like GC do not care about running their West Riding services. I can’t imagine such a high level of cancellations so regularly is good for their passengers numbers.
The Sunderland circuit also had a couple of cancellations today but the West riding services seem to have been completely given up on.

 

[Brubulus]

I’ve been thinking of booking a Bradford to London return with Grand Central but I am being put off due to the deteriorating reliability of services on this route this year.
Since Christmas it’s had been normal for one of the 4 returns to be a planned cancellation. So despite advertising 4 returns services only 3 have been running.

But today (8/3/23) has been a new low with not one service managing it all the way end to end in either we direction seemingly due to unit issues or planned cancellations.

From Bradford Int to Kings cross -
0655 cancelled unit issue
0758 planned cancel
1022 ran as far as Doncaster only
1450 started short from Wakefield.

Coming the other way
1057 Kx to Bradford cancelled
1456 planned cancel
1627 cancelled
1948 terminated short at Wakefield.

It feels like GC do not care about running their West Riding services. I can’t imagine such a high level of cancellations so regularly is good for their passengers numbers.
The Sunderland circuit also had a couple of cancellations today but the West riding services seem to have been completely given up on.

The situation should improve after May when EMR get rid of their Class 180s, as they could take one of the units that isn't on the brink of completely rusting away, or at least improve their spares situation by stripping them. Possibly they may even be lengthened to 6 cars however this seems unlikely.

 

[Andyh82]

It’s been going on for months if not years

The main issue is that the alternative journeys they suggest due to LNER ticket acceptance often consist of up to 3 different legs and result in arrivals 1 or 2 hours late at your destination. I’ve seen them suggest travelling via Leeds and then via York to pick up an LNER service

 

[johntea]

They have their issues but at the same time they'll often get me from West Yorkshire to London for as little as £14.50 each way, so personally for me still worth the 'gamble' (I probably wouldn't consider using them if I had a time sensitive journey)

Generally I've found they'll at least always try and maintain at least the first outward (0655) and last return (1948) of the day so a bit unlucky there was a unit issue today

 

[humbersidejim]

Hull Trains found themselves in a similar situation with their 180s a couple of years ago -
So much so that they even temporarily hired in a couple of HST sets ex GWR.

It sounds like where GC are with their 180s now.

What really needs to happen is a follow on order of 802s - for so many reasons. (Route fleet commonality, lack of diesel under wires and in the shed at KX…)

However, unless they can negotiate a significantly longer track access agreement, it’s difficult to see a way forward.

Perhaps some displaced Voyagers or 222’s will allow them to junk the ever unreliable 180s.

 

[D365]

The situation should improve after May when EMR get rid of their Class 180s, as they could take one of the units that isn't on the brink of completely rusting away, or at least improve their spares situation by stripping them. Possibly they may even be lengthened to 6 cars however this seems unlikely.

There's zero point in speculating on additional 180s.

 

[Andyh82]

Today cancellation of the 1450 Bradford to London KX

Alternative arrangements are to catch the Northern stopper to Leeds, then a Northern service to a Sheffield, then the EMR service to London St Pancras

https://twitter.com/gc_rail/status/1633737896103378944?s=61&t=z1Utc2tWKPg-VDgvvXgI1g

You wouldn’t be boarding at Sheffield until the time you should be arriving in London, and would arrive in London 2 hours later than scheduled, and Grand Central are not part of DelayRepay

 

[dk1]

I can see Voyagers as the only alternative to 180s in the short to medium term if reliability issues continue/worsen.

 

[DarloRich]

It feels like GC do not care about running their West Riding services.

Whilst I am sure it feels like GC don't care I doubt they are doing this on purpose. The units and what is causing them to fail is the real issue.

 

[DelW]

Whilst I am sure it feels like GC don't care I doubt they are doing this on purpose. The units and what is causing them to fail is the real issue.

I was surprised that they took the 180s on at all. Presumably they must have been cheaper than the HSTs, but their reliability has been poor since they were built and no operator seems to have been able to cure their faults.

 

[DarloRich]

I was surprised that they took the 180s on at all. Presumably they must have been cheaper than the HSTs, but their reliability has been poor since they were built and no operator seems to have been able to cure their faults.

Looking from the outside it seems GWR did the best of any operator. Perhaps they had all the fleet cared for at one location by a dedicated and had a more intense maintenance regime and less daily mileage?

 

[55018ballymoss]

The Class 180s certainly are close to, if not bottom, of the reliability charts. Not sure that taking on any more of them would be a solution, though boosting the spares float in the short term may help.
The long term solution depends on how important Arriva think the ECML Open Access contracts are.
I agree that a follow on order to Hull Trains Class 802s would be ideal as it creates commonality between units and allows their units to be rescued more easily in the event of failure, plus the 80x type seems to be far more reliable now the cracking issue seems to be under control.
It will be interesting to see how it goes and how quickly they move to solve the dropping reliability.

 

[aleandrail]

Only ever been on a 180 the one time when they were with GWR. Always remember thinking how comfortable they were, also, I was impressed with the acceleration. It was a long time ago though

 

[AlastairFraser]

Only ever been on a 180 the one time when they were with GWR. Always remember thinking how comfortable they were, also, I was impressed with the acceleration. It was a long time ago though

They are nice units when they run. Unfortunately, that is not often!

 

[Gaz55]

I used to use them quite regularly to get from Doncaster to Halifax, vice versa. I've given up now as I don't want to take a punt on any cancellations, especially on a weekend.

It's a massive shame the service has deteriorated this much as the staff are usually really good and the 180s provide a nice passenger experience.

Hopefully, GC can find either alternative stock or place an order for a new fleet, the problems can't go on indefinitely.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I used to use them quite regularly to get from Doncaster to Halifax, vice versa. I've given up now as I don't want to take a punt on any cancellations, especially on a weekend.

It's a massive shame the service has deteriorated this much as the staff are usually really good and the 180s provide a nice passenger experience.

Hopefully, GC can find either alternative stock or place an order for a new fleet, the problems can't go on indefinitely.

At least they can arrange ticket acceptance on other operators and you still get to your destination. Many other lower-cost operators are reluctant to do this.

 

[QSK19]

They are nice units when they run. Unfortunately, that is not often!

Agreed - whenever I get on the EMR ones and sit down, it is really comfortable despite the general feeling of being tired. It is such a shame, therefore, that they’re dogged by issues on the outside and below.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Agreed - whenever I get on the EMR ones and sit down, it is really comfortable despite the general feeling of being tired. It is such a shame, therefore, that they’re dogged by issues on the outside and below.

It's partly the depot providing maintenance I think - perhaps EMR will find them easier to deal with, once they've bedded in a bit!

 

[43055]

Hull Trains found themselves in a similar situation with their 180s a couple of years ago -
So much so that they even temporarily hired in a couple of HST sets ex GWR.

It's partly the depot providing maintenance I think - perhaps EMR will find them easier to deal with, once they've bedded in a bit!

And after a bit of time at EMR they have bedded down mostly running 2 of the 4 units per day (up to 3 on Sundays). Shame they are leaving EMR in May.

 

[AlastairFraser]

And after a bit of time at EMR they have bedded down mostly running 2 of the 4 units per day (up to 3 on Sundays). Shame they are leaving EMR in May.

To the leasing company? Perhaps GC could swap some.

 

[43055]

To the leasing company? Perhaps GC could swap some.

Assume so and then stored or scrapped.

 

[Watershed]

At least they can arrange ticket acceptance on other operators and you still get to your destination. Many other lower-cost operators are reluctant to do this.

The ticket acceptance GC arrange is the bare minimum. They should, and indeed must, arrange acceptance on LNER. Of course they're not very keen on doing so, as that would cost them more than arranging inadequate ticket acceptance on Northern & EMR.

 

[Driver068]

The situation should improve after May when EMR get rid of their Class 180s, as they could take one of the units that isn't on the brink of completely rusting away, or at least improve their spares situation by stripping them. Possibly they may even be lengthened to 6 cars however this seems unlikely.

No evidence to suggest what so ever that will be the case. Pure speculation. However GC are currently looking at options but nothing concrete. So assume nothing will improve untilit does lol.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The ticket acceptance GC arrange is the bare minimum. They should, and indeed must, arrange acceptance on LNER. Of course they're not very keen on doing so, as that would cost them more than arranging inadequate ticket acceptance on Northern & EMR.

Yes, but one of the operators you have mentioned is even reluctant to organise ticket acceptance on local buses when the proverbial hits the fan - a consistent approach to disruption is a plus in this day and age unfortunately.

Assume so and then stored or scrapped.

Scrap with spares removed - they're not going to be attractive to other operators with their current record.

 

[D365]

Scrap with spares removed - they're not going to be attractive to other operators with their current record.

Not sure how salvaging parts would help to solve the matter of this discussion!

 

[Whisky Papa]

The ticket acceptance GC arrange is the bare minimum. They should, and indeed must, arrange acceptance on LNER. Of course they're not very keen on doing so, as that would cost them more than arranging inadequate ticket acceptance on Northern & EMR.

I hadn't realised they no longer did. When I worked at Bradford Interchange (2014-18), cancellation of the mid-morning service was fairly common, and there was a list distributed of the connecting Northern trains from all the affected stations to Leeds or Wakefield to use ECML trains. From Bradford Interchange it actually gave an earlier arrival than the GC service, although this would not be the case at all the other stations.

It would certainly put me off using them now if I wasn't sure there was a decent fall-back plan in case of cancellation.

 

[Iskra]

Without withdrawing the fleet, couldn't they split them and join them with the GC North East services at Doncaster to give more resilience- ie if one unit fails at least the other is already attached to drag it out of the way on the South ECML.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Without withdrawing the fleet, couldn't they split them and join them with the GC North East services at Doncaster to give more resilience- ie if one unit fails at least the other is already attached to drag it out of the way on the South ECML.

The North East Grand Central's don't call at Doncaster and I don't think they'd be able to unless a special stop order was put on four of them to allow the West Yorkshire Grand Central's to join/divide at Doncaster as part of a short term contingency plan until Grand Central can obtain either a handful of class 222 Meridian's or as someone has mentioned upthread an add on of the class 802 order.

 

[D365]

Without withdrawing the fleet, couldn't they split them and join them with the GC North East services at Doncaster to give more resilience- ie if one unit fails at least the other is already attached to drag it out of the way on the South ECML.

Wouldn't help if it was the leading unit that broke down. The driver would probably spend more time troubleshooting than would be hypothetically saved.

 

[gledhill56]

Without withdrawing the fleet, couldn't they split them and join them with the GC North East services at Doncaster to give more resilience- ie if one unit fails at least the other is already attached to drag it out of the way on the South ECML.

I’ve often wondered why this hasn’t been done, but would it save paths on the core ECML south of Donny and would they be of use to anyone else?