CAF class 197 Civity for TfW: News and updates on introduction.

[Andrew*Debbie]

Holyhead is now signed off with service starting Monday,

Any idea which services? I'm looking forward to my first trip in a 197.

The 0731 Holyhead(HHD) to Woverhampton was +15 minutes at Bangor, ended up being cancled at Chester. Reported reason is a fault with the train, code M8.

IV94, the 0805 HHD to Cardiff is a 158 today. It is nominally a 3-car 175.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Any idea which services? I'm looking forward to my first trip in a 197.

The 0731 Holyhead(HHD) to Woverhampton was +15 minutes at Bangor, ended up being cancled at Chester. Reported reason is a fault with the train, code M8.

IV94, the 0805 HHD to Cardiff is a 158 today. It is nominally a 3-car 175.

It hasn't happened today, but it has definitely been approved now. Don't know what services sorry.

 

[Bob Price]

Interesting test/ training move today. Crewe to Stockport, back to Crewe, off to Warrington, back to Crewe then to Chester. 197007 and 13.

 

[victormildrew]

I see some track laying going on at Shrewsbury Abbey Foregate carriage sidings, my thought is that the Shropshire sidings has only three roads so may not have enough space. does anyone know why?. Is it because of the new 196/197s being stabled, i also noticed most if not all of the goods siding have been removed too.

 

[Bob Price]

There is also a ROG move today from Crewe to Holyhead. Things are starting to expand.

 

[anthony263]

I can’t see 2 coach 197’s every 2 hours being adequate for Cardiff to Liverpool services. I expect that once this service starts running, that will attract a lot of people from the Bristol area as long as the change at Newport time is sensible. So, with the substantial populations at either end plus people on The Marches, a 2 car until will surely be rammed?

This is why I think they should order extra carriages to make more 3 carriage rakes.

All well and good sayingnthe Cardiff to Liverpool attach to a unit from Llandudno at chester but how does that solve the overcrowding between Cardiff and Shrewsbury?

 

[Steveswan10]

This is why I think they should order extra carriages to make more 3 carriage rakes.

All well and good sayingnthe Cardiff to Liverpool attach to a unit from Llandudno at chester but how does that solve the overcrowding between Cardiff and Shrewsbury?

I sent a email to TFW last April in response to the severe if not dangerous overcrowding (spent 3 months travelling from Hereford to Bristol IST for Siganlling training and almost every Sunday evening going to Bristol was so crowded people were being left behind at Hereford, Abergavenny and Cwmbran and was told by others who came from further northit was the same from Crewe southwards) and they replied back with whilst the government stopped the use of the pacers ect so less units available when the new 2 and 3 car units are in service there will be enough to make sure all marches services including the new Liverpool service would be a minimum of 4 carriages but majority would be 5 and 6 carriages so we'll soon see if that actually happens

 

[Peter Sarf]

This is why I think they should order extra carriages to make more 3 carriage rakes.

All well and good sayingnthe Cardiff to Liverpool attach to a unit from Llandudno at chester but how does that solve the overcrowding between Cardiff and Shrewsbury?

I wonder if that could be a problem ?. Are there platforms limited to 5 cars so TfW need 2-car 197s to add to 3-car 197s. Having too many 3-car 197s would reduce train lengths if 6-car cannot be used. Obviously SDO might help but perhaps depends on crossings and lights.

 

[Jez]

Well looking at where the 197s will be once the final timetable is in place and all of TFWs other new trains including all the Valleys trains, they should be on the following

South Wales to Manchester - 2 hourly with 5 carriages Swansea to Manchester and 2 West of Swansea.

Cardiff to West Wales - 2 hourly to run in the other hour opposite the Manchester through train. Unclear how many carriages.

Cardiff to Holyhead - 2 hourly with some dIagrams covered by MK4, unclear how many carriages on those run by 197s but it would need at least 3.

Cardiff to Liverpool - 2 hourly unclear on carriages but i imagine at least 3.

Conwy Valley - 3 hourly - 1 x 2 car train

Llandudno to Liverpool - 2 hourly or is it hourly? Would need 3 carriages at least?

Manchester to Llandudno - 6 x 5 carriage trains?

Swansea to Pembroke Dock - 3 x 2 car trains

Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead - probably about 18 x 2 car trains if similar to the current amount of 158s used on these routes. May need more if the frequency of the service is to be increased.

Swanline - when it goes hourly probably 3 x 2 car trains if they have a 15 minute or so turnaround each end.

Borderlands - think it's meant to be 2 x 197 and 2 x 230.but unsure what's happening long term.

Any routes I missed ? Didn't include Maesteg-Ebbw Vale or Cheltenham Spa etcas they are only temporary until the 231s move from the Rhymneys.

So with all this how many carriages should be enough to cover all are in service?

 

[anthony263]

Maesteg to Ebbw Vale supposed to be a mix or three or four carriage trains from December.

Llandudno to Liverpool will be hourly. With a portion to/from Cardiff every 2 hours being attached or detached at Chester

 

[OrangeJuice]

Well looking at where the 197s will be once the final timetable is in place and all of TFWs other new trains including all the Valleys trains, they should be on the following

South Wales to Manchester - 2 hourly with 5 carriages Swansea to Manchester and 2 West of Swansea.

Cardiff to West Wales - 2 hourly to run in the other hour opposite the Manchester through train. Unclear how many carriages.

Cardiff to Holyhead - 2 hourly with some dIagrams covered by MK4, unclear how many carriages on those run by 197s but it would need at least 3.

Cardiff to Liverpool - 2 hourly unclear on carriages but i imagine at least 3.

Conwy Valley - 3 hourly - 1 x 2 car train

Llandudno to Liverpool - 2 hourly or is it hourly? Would need 3 carriages at least?

Manchester to Llandudno - 6 x 5 carriage trains?

Swansea to Pembroke Dock - 3 x 2 car trains

Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead - probably about 18 x 2 car trains if similar to the current amount of 158s used on these routes. May need more if the frequency of the service is to be increased.

Swanline - when it goes hourly probably 3 x 2 car trains if they have a 15 minute or so turnaround each end.

Borderlands - think it's meant to be 2 x 197 and 2 x 230.but unsure what's happening long term.

Any routes I missed ? Didn't include Maesteg-Ebbw Vale or Cheltenham Spa etcas they are only temporary until the 231s move from the Rhymneys.

So with all this how many carriages should be enough to cover all are in service?

Manchester to Bangor was planned to be 3 car all day, with 5car in the peaks I think from the Dec23 proposal. I don't think they're going to Llandudno anymore

 

[Jez]

Manchester to Bangor was planned to be 3 car all day, with 5car in the peaks I think from the Dec23 proposal. I don't think they're going to Llandudno anymore

Ah yes id forgotten they are changing it and having Manchester-Bangor and Llandudno-Liverpool

 

[43055]

Any idea which services? I'm looking forward to my first trip in a 197.

The 0731 Holyhead(HHD) to Woverhampton was +15 minutes at Bangor, ended up being cancled at Chester. Reported reason is a fault with the train, code M8.

IV94, the 0805 HHD to Cardiff is a 158 today. It is nominally a 3-car 175.

I would say most likely be the Manchester services first as a few are already 197's as far as Llandudno. The Birmingham services will probably be last to go to 197's as they have to have ETCS due to interworking with the Aberystwyth/Pwllheli services.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Well looking at where the 197s will be once the final timetable is in place and all of TFWs other new trains including all the Valleys trains, they should be on the following

South Wales to Manchester - 2 hourly with 5 carriages Swansea to Manchester and 2 West of Swansea.

Cardiff to West Wales - 2 hourly to run in the other hour opposite the Manchester through train. Unclear how many carriages.

Cardiff to Holyhead - 2 hourly with some dIagrams covered by MK4, unclear how many carriages on those run by 197s but it would need at least 3.

Cardiff to Liverpool - 2 hourly unclear on carriages but i imagine at least 3.

Conwy Valley - 3 hourly - 1 x 2 car train

Llandudno to Liverpool - 2 hourly or is it hourly? Would need 3 carriages at least?

Manchester to Llandudno - 6 x 5 carriage trains?

Swansea to Pembroke Dock - 3 x 2 car trains

Cambrian-Birmingham-Holyhead - probably about 18 x 2 car trains if similar to the current amount of 158s used on these routes. May need more if the frequency of the service is to be increased.

Swanline - when it goes hourly probably 3 x 2 car trains if they have a 15 minute or so turnaround each end.

Borderlands - think it's meant to be 2 x 197 and 2 x 230.but unsure what's happening long term.

Any routes I missed ? Didn't include Maesteg-Ebbw Vale or Cheltenham Spa etcas they are only temporary until the 231s move from the Rhymneys.

So with all this how many carriages should be enough to cover all are in service?

The bit about Llandudno-Manchester, I think its going to be 5 in the peak and 3 or 4 off peak.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Cardiff to Holyhead - 2 hourly with some dIagrams covered by MK4, unclear how many carriages on those run by 197s but it would need at least 3.

Cardiff to Liverpool - 2 hourly unclear on carriages but i imagine at least 3.

Conwy Valley - 3 hourly - 1 x 2 car train

Llandudno to Liverpool - 2 hourly or is it hourly? Would need 3 carriages at least?

Manchester to Llandudno - 6 x 5 carriage trains?

The draft Dec 2023 timetables that were available a little while ago (so not the final timetable) suggest the following:

• Cardiff-Holyhead - Mostly 3-car class 197 (the remainder being 5-car mark 4 sets)
• Cardiff-Liverpool - No Service
• Llandudno-Liverpool - Mostly 2-car class 197 (4-car on some peak workings, inc. the 17:47 off Liverpool having a portion for Wrexham)
• Manchester-Bangor/Holyhead - Mostly 3-car class 197 (5-car on some peak workings)

Maesteg to Ebbw Vale supposed to be a mix or three or four carriage trains from December.

Llandudno to Liverpool will be hourly. With a portion to/from Cardiff every 2 hours being attached or detached at Chester

No Cardiff portions from Liverpool yet in the Dec 2023 timetable - must be planned for 2024/25. Regarding your earlier question about overcrowding between Cardiff and Shrewsbury, perhaps the intention is for the Manchesters (5 coaches hourly) and Holyheads (mix of 5-car mark 4s and 3-car 197s) to do the heavy lifting in terms of capacity?

Also, in addition to Cardiff-Liverpool every two hours, the initial franchise documents suggested either a Cardiff-Shrewsbury or a Liverpool-Shrewsbury every two hours (there was contradictory information regarding which it would be). That would provide another 2 coaches of capacity over part of the route every 2hrs if it is still happening.

 

[krus_aragon]

Also, in addition to Cardiff-Liverpool every two hours, the initial franchise documents suggested either a Cardiff-Shrewsbury or a Liverpool-Shrewsbury every two hours (there was contradictory information regarding which it would be). That would provide another 2 coaches of capacity over part of the route every 2hrs if it is still happening.

My recollection from documents at franchise award was an hourly portion Liverpool to Shrewsbury (coupled to Liverpool-Llandudno), with a two-hourly extension from Shrewsbury down to Cardiff. I don't remember any contradictory information at that time: do you happen to recall what it was?

 

[Doveymain158]

My recollection from documents at franchise award was an hourly portion Liverpool to Shrewsbury (coupled to Liverpool-Llandudno), with a two-hourly extension from Shrewsbury down to Cardiff. I don't remember any contradictory information at that time: do you happen to recall what it was?

I the Liverpool-Shrewsbury/Cardiff service cant happen yet. There needs some additional signals put in between Shrewsbury and Gobowen before that happens

 

[Steveswan10]

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but when is the new Cardiff to Liverpool service ment to start and will that mean the basic service on the Marches between Shrewsbury and Cardiff will be every half hour each direction (if I understand it correctly, hourly between Cardiff/South Wales and Manchester, 2 hourly between Cardiff and Holyhead, 2 hourly between Cardiff and Liverpool) if so would that mean all signal boxes at least between Shrewsbury and Little Mill Junction going up a grade?

 

[craigybagel]

I the Liverpool-Shrewsbury/Cardiff service cant happen yet. There needs some additional signals put in between Shrewsbury and Gobowen before that happens

There's already a set of signals splitting that section in two. There's very rarely two trains between the stations however, given the longer block section between Wrexham (Croes Newydd SB) and Gobowen.

Not sure if this is the correct thread, but when is the new Cardiff to Liverpool service ment to start and will that mean the basic service on the Marches between Shrewsbury and Cardiff will be every half hour each direction (if I understand it correctly, hourly between Cardiff/South Wales and Manchester, 2 hourly between Cardiff and Holyhead, 2 hourly between Cardiff and Liverpool) if so would that mean all signal boxes at least between Shrewsbury and Little Mill Junction going up a grade?

I've no idea on the impact on the signal boxes and if an extra train every 2 hours is enough to go up a grade, but 2024 was the plan for the service. I believe it requires the entire 197 fleet to be in service.

 

[Herefordian]

Had my first 197 last week.

Decent seats, excellent window depth. Nice ambience.

Legroom isn't terrible. Had worse. More tables would have been nice.

Overall, they'll do.

 

[JakeMurphy]

Saw there was a 5Z02 Chester to canton . Presuming 197’s??

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Saw there was a 5Z02 Chester to canton . Presuming 197’s??

Yes 197002 004 019.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

It hasn't happened today, but it has definitely been approved now. Don't know what services sorry.

I spotted 197110 at Bangor this evening while waiting for my train back to Anglesey.

It is not in service. The seats still have the plastic wrap on them. It stayed at platform 1 for short while before heading out.

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I spotted 197110 at Bangor this evening while waiting for my train back to Anglesey.

It is not in service. The seats still have the plastic wrap on them. It stayed at platform 1 for short while before heading out.

101 will be the first of the 3 car units to be handed over, I believe hand over is imminent. Maybe they'll wait for that unit before switching over the Holyhead diagram. I expect they want it quickly considering more 175s are now in Holyhead sidings.

 

[craigybagel]

101 will be the first of the 3 car units to be handed over, I believe hand over is imminent. Maybe they'll wait for that unit before switching over the Holyhead diagram. I expect they want it quickly considering more 175s are now in Holyhead sidings.

It's not like 101 is much use to anyone at the moment anyway.....

 

[SuperLuke2334]

It's not like 101 is much use to anyone at the moment anyway.....

Sorry if you misunderstood, I mean 197101. I know 175101 is burnt up!

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Two snap shots of 197110 at Bangor yesterday. I was out of position for a good photograph. If I'd known it was going to make a brief appearance I would have moved elsewhere.

 

[60159]

PTS says and RTT confirms that the 22.32 Chester- Shrewsbury and return is 197 hauled going out as class 2 and back as 1.
Is this the first service on the line?

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry if you misunderstood, I mean 197101. I know 175101 is burnt up!

My apologies, that does make more sense!

 

[SuperLuke2334]

PTS says and RTT confirms that the 22.32 Chester- Shrewsbury and return is 197 hauled going out as class 2 and back as 1.
Is this the first service on the line?

Nope, it's run a couple of times before. Now a booked working.