I thought trains never departed early?

[Krokodil]

Clapham Junction and Balham both have standing instructions for departing early for trains towards Victoria

Could do with that at Manchester Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly for services towards Manchester Airport. Would help ease a lot of congestion when trains start running out of their own paths. You'd probably have to make all trains stop at all five intermediate stations but that's no bad thing in my view.

 

[Falcon1200]

Mechanical absolute block boxes often have signallers manually enter trains into TRUST as theres no automatic reporting in their area. They pretty much never end up majorly messing up anything to the best of my knowledge. I wonder why it would be any different in TCB areas with automatic reporting?

That's a fair point, but a Signaller inputting times manually where it is part of their normal routine is less onerous than trying to compensate for the loss of auto reporting, in a place where manual reporting is not usually required.

 

[miklcct]

I've found out that trains departing early is a way for an operator to minimise Delay Repay responsibility as it can usually lead to the actual delay being brought down a step.

I was hit by a cancellation yesterday, but after changing trains, because trains always depart when ready (i.e. early) at the interchange station, my actual delay was reduced to 14 minutes on a connection which runs every 15 minutes (Clapham Junction - Battersea Park). As a result no Delay Repay was due.

 

[43066]

I've found out that trains departing early is a way for an operator to minimise Delay Repay responsibility as it can usually lead to the actual delay being brought down a step.

I was hit by a cancellation yesterday, but after changing trains, because trains always depart when ready (i.e. early) at the interchange station, my actual delay was reduced to 14 minutes on a connection which runs every 15 minutes (Clapham Junction - Battersea Park). As a result no Delay Repay was due.

Trains only depart when ready at certain locations (Clapham Junction is one, London Bridge is another) because it makes sense to keep the service running towards the main terminal to minimise delays overall. It really isn’t done specifically to cheat individual travellers out of delay repay claims by one minute!

 

[Mikey C]

Nobody cares about individual services on short and incredibly frequent routes like Clapham J to to Waterloo/Victoria or London Bridge to Charing Cross, as the next train will be along shortly.

It's not acceptable when the frequency is far worse. My example for example, where if I had missed the train at Highbury & Islington because it left early, I would have had a 30 minute wait.

 

[greatkingrat]

Surely the answer is for the published public timetable to be one minute earlier than the working timetable…?

Problem solved or am I missing something?

That leads to its own issues, as previously valid connections will become invalid.

 

[D6975]

That leads to its own issues, as previously valid connections will become invalid.

Why??
If both services are advanced by 1 minute, the differential remains the same.

 

[miklcct]

That leads to its own issues, as previously valid connections will become invalid.

If all the departures in the public timetable is changed to be 1 minute earlier if the working timetable is on the minute, by reducing all the minimum connecting time at all station by 1 minute, all valid connections will remain valid.

If the working arrival is on the minute while the working departure is on half minute, the public departure will be kept on the minute without change, i.e. all public departure times must be at least half a minute earlier than the working departure times.

 

[185]

I've observed one station with CIS clocks 3 minutes fast. This hardly helps run a punctual railway.

 

[43066]

If all the departures in the public timetable is changed to be 1 minute earlier if the working timetable is on the minute, by reducing all the minimum connecting time at all station by 1 minute, all valid connections will remain valid.

If the working arrival is on the minute while the working departure is on half minute, the public departure will be kept on the minute without change, i.e. all public departure times must be at least half a minute earlier than the working departure times.

But that reduces capacity, and people will get used to the train leaving one minute late, which makes no sense. What happens when complaints start to come in that the train normally leaves a minute late, but now it has left thirty seconds late (both on time according to the working timetable)?

There always has to be a cut off and I don’t see why it’s unreasonable for that to be that the train aims to leave at the booked time, but doors close 30 seconds earlier than that.

Is it really so unreasonable to expect people to be there thirty seconds before!?

I've observed one station with CIS clocks 3 minutes fast. This hardly helps run a punctual railway.

Not St Pancras by any chance? If so, I completely agree, but the inaccurate platform ones aren’t followed for dispatch purposes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Feb 2023 ==

If the working arrival is on the minute while the working departure is on half minute, the public departure will be kept on the minute without change, i.e. all public departure times must be at least half a minute earlier than the working departure times.

Why is this better than saying, “departure is at 1300, but doors close at 12:59:30?” Having an effective two minute window at every station will reduce capacity and still lead to people cutting it fine and being left behind.

The point that is perhaps being missed is that, in order for a train to depart roughly on the minute, dispatch and closing of doors needs to begin 30 seconds before. That way the wheels start turning right time.

 

[Esker-pades]

I've observed one station with CIS clocks 3 minutes fast. This hardly helps run a punctual railway.

Yep; it's been like that at Milton Keynes for the past couple of weeks. Caught a few staff out and a hurried re-unlocking of doors. Not seen any early departures though.

 

[Howardh]

If all the departures in the public timetable is changed to be 1 minute earlier if the working timetable is on the minute, by reducing all the minimum connecting time at all station by 1 minute, all valid connections will remain valid.

If the working arrival is on the minute while the working departure is on half minute, the public departure will be kept on the minute without change, i.e. all public departure times must be at least half a minute earlier than the working departure times.

In the Netherlands they used to (still do?) have + or - 1 min on the departure displays, so if you turned up with 45 seconds before your train, and it was leaving, then NS had covered themselves by this method.

That's my memory of it, could be wrong, can anyone confirm? Does seem a sensible option for a train to depart early?

 

[bazzarati]

The problem with manually inputting Trust times when auto-reporting has failed (I'm assuming that is what is being referred to here?) is that it would be all too easy to mistakenly input incorrect times. Manual interference with Trust reports, whether well-intentioned or not, is fraught with danger.

Regarding trains departing early, I can only say that as a rail passenger since 1971, and as rail staff in an operational role from 1984 to 2016, such instances were incredibly rare.

Could you expand on that. I don't see what the big deal is?

 

[Falcon1200]

Could you expand on that. I don't see what the big deal is?

Quite simply, making a mistake and inputting an incorrect time, or reporting a time for a wrong train. Both of which have happened. And mistakes are more likely in a location which does not normally have to input manual times, this therefore being an additional duty at what is likely to be a busy time already.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes these things do happen occasionally. Not intentional.

Unfortunately it's more than the very rare thing it should be, given the huge investment in clocks on stations and trains and in software.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

The public timetable shows 30 seconds earlier, always to the minute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2022 ==

Just checked our timetable PDF and it states 30 seconds before published departure, so in this case I'd say the crew are within their rights to close the doors at 10:09:30 for a departure scheduled for 10:10:30, as the published departure time is 10:10

Deleted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

Clapham Junction and Balham both have standing instructions for departing early for trains towards Victoria

Are those the only two? I would have thought several more London suburban stations would have this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Mar 2023 ==

I completely agree, but it's too much common sense to be adopted.

You're not missing anything... except the TOCs want to advertise faster journey times (i.e. have their cake and eat it!)

It's been debated frequently before on this forum.

Yes, while increasing journey times through longer dwell times (brought on by excessive door release delays, etc), defensive driving and so on. As you say - cake and eating it.

 

[bazzarati]

Quite simply, making a mistake and inputting an incorrect time, or reporting a time for a wrong train. Both of which have happened. And mistakes are more likely in a location which does not normally have to input manual times, this therefore being an additional duty at what is likely to be a busy time already.

I dispute that. Signallers are quite capable of putting in the correct time. For example, the signaller I was referring to above, threatened with disciplinary action, records the trains time for every train in the train register they have. It's absurd that he can record the time in the book but not apparently on Trust. I think the whole company is a shambles and the way signallers treated is disgusting. Many of us are reaching the tipping point. I know of signallers all handing in their retirement notices or resignation notices simultaneously to screw the company. People have had enough.

 

[Falcon1200]

I dispute that. Signallers are quite capable of putting in the correct time.

Of course they are - But like all of us, Signallers are only human and capable of making mistakes, especially perhaps if having to carry out an additional duty not part of their normal work, which was the issue being discussed earlier. Even when it is their normal work, errors are possible, for example reporting a train at its terminus point but inputting the time against a different train say 2 hours later, meaning that no further reports can be made for the train, whether auto or manual, because Trust now thinks it has finished its journey! I have seen that happen.

I know of signallers all handing in their retirement notices or resignation notices simultaneously to screw the company. People have had enough.

That's very sad to hear, makes me even gladder that I was fortunate enough to retire in 2016. Best of luck to you and your colleagues.

 

[bazzarati]

Of course they are - But like all of us, Signallers are only human and capable of making mistakes, especially perhaps if having to carry out an additional duty not part of their normal work, which was the issue being discussed earlier. Even when it is their normal work, errors are possible, for example reporting a train at its terminus point but inputting the time against a different train say 2 hours later, meaning that no further reports can be made for the train, whether auto or manual, because Trust now thinks it has finished its journey! I have seen that happen.



That's very sad to hear, makes me even gladder that I was fortunate enough to retire in 2016. Best of luck to you and your colleagues.

It is sad. It was never a great place to work, but I was always optimistic it could improve. I don't think that anymore, quite the opposite. Even the younger colleagues,a fair few are looking to move over to the civil service.

 

[jhy44]

It's very annoying when this happens at Clapham Junction with Victoria-bound trains. Sometimes trains leave a whopping 4 minutes early, and then there is a timetabled gap of 7 minutes (meaning an 11 min gap due to the early departure) until the next service is due, and that next service is then sod's law running 5+ mins late, resulting in 15+ min gaps in service in what is supposed to be an 'every few mins turn up and go metro frequency'. There isn't really any rationale for 'avoiding congestion' when the next train is 15 mins away; very clearly no danger of that. And the trains which leave early often end up standstill waiting for a platform outside Victoria anyway making any possible benefit to the practice void.

I understand the rational if there is a service right behind it but it's poor practice otherwise. It makes a mockery of having a timetabled departure time at all.

 

[Krokodil]

If you're complaining about having to wait 15 mins for a train, you need to (what is the phrase the kids use?) check your privilege. Plenty of two-hourly services around here with connections that almost seem designed to just let the passenger see the tail lights of the previous train disappear.

 

[Jimini]

If you're complaining about having to wait 15 mins for a train, you need to (what is the phrase the kids use?) check your privilege. Plenty of two-hourly services around here with connections that almost seem designed to just let the passenger see the tail lights of the previous train disappear.

You've clearly not been at Clapham Junction in the morning peak trying to get into town. It's a bit busier than what you're comparing it to in Wales...

 

[Krokodil]

You've clearly not been at Clapham Junction in the morning peak trying to get into town. It's a bit busier than what you're comparing it to in Wales...

And? Waiting for 15mins is not the end of the world. Granted, the carnage at London Bridge the other week was a bit different...

I don't spend my whole life in Wales by the way. You should see what gets fed through the pair of through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[yorkie]

If there was a 15 minute gap in service at busy times, you may not be able to physically board the train.

 

[Krokodil]

So you wait for the next one - which in the circumstance described above could well be right behind the late-running train.

 

[zwk500]

So you wait for the next one - which in the circumstance described above could well be right behind the late-running train.

The platforms at Clapham Junction are not particularly wide and if trains are backing up 15 minutes then they could easily become dangerously crowded.

 

[boiledbeans2]

This train seems to be consistently departing early throughout its journey!

Realtime Trains | 0632 Woking to Havant | 05/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 0632 departure from Woking to Havant on 05/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Bertie the bus]

Oops:

Realtime Trains | 2G61 0643 Kirkby to Liverpool Central | 07/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 2G61 0643 departure from Kirkby to Liverpool Central on 07/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Jimini]

Vaguely connected -- I was on this 1452 XC service from Birmingham New Street to Cheltenham Spa last Thursday, and the 1459 GWR service was let out of the sidings too early by the signaller, so we ended up sitting outside Cheltenham for ten minutes waiting for the 1459 to get out of the way, so us (the 1452) could call at Cheltenham.

 

[Tester]

Vaguely connected -- I was on this 1452 XC service from Birmingham New Street to Cheltenham Spa last Thursday, and the 1459 GWR service was let out of the sidings too early by the signaller, so we ended up sitting outside Cheltenham for ten minutes waiting for the 1459 to get out of the way, so us (the 1452) could call at Cheltenham.

And that is a connection I have done more than once (various hours) so would have been even more annoying.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Another one today. It seems they sent the stopping service ahead of the express service. So the stopping service was departing early to avoid holding up the express.

Realtime Trains | 0658 Portsmouth & Southsea to London Waterloo | 08/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 0658 departure from Portsmouth & Southsea to London Waterloo on 08/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk